German WW2 unknown Flak Projects

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moin1900

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German Flak Projects

Skoda 24cm Zwillingsflak
Rate of fire:
- per barrel 8 rpm
Effective firing range:
- 48,000m ground target
- 36,000m maximum ceiling
Shell:
- 205kg
Muzzle velocity:
- 1030 m/s
Source:
Source:
Enzyklopädie Deutscher Waffen 1939-1945 by Terry Gander & Peter Chamberlain

More Flak Projects

3,7cm Gerät 341 - Flakzwilling-
3,7cm Gerät Fledermaus - Flakzwilling
3,7cm Gerät 342 (Flakzwilling 44) -Sd.Ah.58
3,7 cm Flak Vierling 44
5 cm Gerät 56
5 cm - Flak 214
5,5 cm Gerät 58
5,5 cm Gerät 59

Behelfslafetten - improvised gun mounts
("8,8cm Flak auf Strassenroller" etc.)
Proximity fuses for Flak shells
Rocket assisted flak shell RAP
Ramjet shells
Sabot shells
Peenemünder Pfeilgeschoss
Squeeze-bore shells
8,8 cm remote controlled Flak
12,8 cm Flak 40 K "conical"
12,8 cm Flak 45 (larger chamber, longer barrel L/75 and a muzzle brake)
12,8 cm Flakzwilling 45
15cm Gerät 50 Krupp
15cm Gerät 55 Rheinmetall
15cm Gerät 60 Krupp
15cm Gerät 65 Rheinmetall

Überschwere Flak (super heavy Flak)
20,3 cm Zwillingsflak (Kriegsmarine)
24 cm Zwillingsflak (Kriegsmarine)
21 cm Flak
24 cm Flak Gerät 80 Krupp
24 cm Flak Gerät 85 Rheinmetall

80 cm Schwerer Gustav - Experiments
(Probably high altitude tests)

Elektrische 4 cm Flak
Electric 4 cm antiaircraft gun -
1944 - 1945 by Joachim Hänsler, Gesellschaft für Gerätebau m.b.H.
- 4 cm six-barrel gun mounted on 12,8cm Flak 40 gun carriage
 
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Re: German WW2 Skoda 240mm Super Heavy Twin-Flak

Wow as much as the power and range of these Skoda 240mm AAA would have been impressive, they would have eaten up a lot of resources and time, which Germany did not have (or utilised properly!)
I think Germany was struggling enough just producing 128mm AAA!

Regards
Pioneer
 
Re: German WW2 Skoda 240mm Super Heavy Twin-Flak

Hi.

On my website
http://www.ww2technik.de/sites/dflak/15%20cm%20flak.htm
I did not mention the Skoda twin aa-gun but the single-barrel Luftwaffe projects by Krupp and Rheinmetall (never heard of the Skoda project before..)

There is a nice but short report on the Luftwaffe guns in Waffen-Revue issue 58.

Yours

tom! ;)
 
"The Development of German Antiaircraft Weapons and Equipment of All Types up to 1945 by von Renz".

Page: 249
- 240mm Flak with rocket attachment
Page: 261 - 265
- Flak shells filled with graphite, Flak Gas shells, Shells containing oil or other substances
Page: 263 - 264
- anti-aircraft mine "Flakmine"


Source: Bundesarchiv
Signatur: ZA 3/836
"Die Entwicklung der deutschen Flugabwehrwaffen aller Art bis zum Jahre 1945" by Wilhelm von Renz
[NO DIGITALISAT AVAILABLE]


Guided 88mm Flak shells
 
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Do you know about this Skoda Gun's barrel length and design date? and if it's actually 240mm or as German practice 238mm?
 
I had a look into that issue of the Waffenrevue, mentioned there are two designs for a 24cm Flak.
"Gerät 80" for the Krupp design and "Gerät 85" for the Rheinmetall-Borsig design.
The design by Krupp is only mentioned, but not presented in detail, because knowledge about it was
sketchy at best, at least at the date of this publication.
For the "Gerät 85" the surviving data are shown, emphasizing the big challenge, an AA gun of that calibre
posed to the designers, mainly because separatopn of shell and propelling charge wasn't regarded as an
option, in order to achieve a reasonable rate of fire. With a kind of a revolver drum, holding 12 cartridges,
a rate of fire of 3 rounds per minute should be achieved. After 12 shots, the whole drum would have been
changed, probably no mean task, with a weight of around 350 kg for a single cartridge (weight of the shell
180 kg).
Nor is the true calibre mentioned, nor a design made by Skoda.
 
WR 058 - 0085.jpg
WR 058 - 0086.jpg
WR 058 - 0087.jpg
WR 058 - 0088.jpg
I thread about 30.5 cm Flak project, with shell 400 kg or over, but, I can't found this information.
And, I know one weird legend. In time of Leningrad battle, one of Soviet battleships firing to German bomber order with ~100 machines, in one shot destroyed ~50 bombers, and, Germans after this incident, thought - "We need analogical gun". But, I haven't a reliable data about this "Stalin's puntgun" :)
 
I wonder what they might thought about the Japanese AA shells when Yamato and Musashi fired them....
Though even Nagato and Mutsu as well as all major IJN warship carreid such shells so 356mm, 410mm and 460mm AA guns...
 
I have been doing research for a long time and a good part of it could not have been done using negative assumptions. When answering any questions, reasonable and even outlandish assumptions usually, not always, result in some sort of conclusion and verified information from credible sources.

An old saying to illustrate: "They said it couldn't be done so we didn't do it."

Respectfully,
Ed
 
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PROXIMITY FUSES FOR FLAK SHELLS
- Rheinmetall Borsig - Kuhglöckchen - electrostatic proximity fuze
- Radio proximity fuze - Pinscher ?
- Acoustic proximity fuze
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/german-special-air-air-anti-bomber-weapons.6945/post-734025

ROCKET ASSISTED FLAK SHELLS
- Source: Bundesarchiv
Signatur: RH 8/1431
Zusatzantrieb für 8,8 cm Flak - 1942
(rocket assisted 88mm shell)
[Click "DIGITALISAT ANZEIGEN" TO VIEW THE FILE]

- Rocket-assisted Projectiles
10,5cm Flak 38/39 - 12,8cm Flak 40
en.wikipedia.org

Rocket-assisted projectile - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org


REMOTE CONTROLLED FLAK
Rheinmetall-Borsig Werke, Unterluss
Artillery and Weapons - 1945
by J.W. Simpson & G.W.R. Taylor
Report No.319
- remote-controlled 8.8cm Flak
- 5 cm Gerät 56
- 5,5 cm Gerät 58 & Gerät 59
[Page: 4
"Gerät 58"
Remote Power Control was apparently being developed by Siemens of Berlin.]
[Page: 6
"88 m.m. Flak Remote Power controlled Mounting"
This equipment was located and examined. It appears to be an unduly heavy mounting.]
(The report is available on Google Books.)


Remote-controlled Flak 18
- The "8,8cm Flak J. SAM" was developed by Krupp, Rheinmetall and Siemens Apparate und Maschinen in 1935.
Source:
The German 88: The Most famous Gun of the Second World War by Terry Gander


Remote-controlled 5cm FlaK 41 battery
 
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moin1900 said:
From:
Kriegsmarine - KM Naval Armament Plans/Discussion

German late war FLAK projects
- 3,7cm Flakvierling 44
- MK 103 in 3,7cm Flakzwilling 43 Lafette
- simplified 12,8cm Flak
- 12,8cm Flak 45
-

Source:
WAFFEN REVUE
2. Quartal 1999, Nr.113
- Waffenentwicklungen im Jahre 1945
Click to expand...
I was wondering what this 3,7cm Flakvierling 44 actually looks like.
_Sarcasticat_ said:
View attachment 756174
Translation:
81) 3.7 cm Flak Quadruple 44:

WKWBy using the modified 3.7 cm Flak 43 (ejection of casings and frames downward), it is possible to build a favorably designed quadruple mount. The development work has begun.
Click to expand...
If I'm understanding correctly downward ejection would pretty much imply a setup that's basically two of what wikipedia calls Twin 3.7 cm Flak M42U guns on the DLM 42U mount side by side.
That would also match what is shown on the drawings from posts 457 and 460 in the thread Kriegsmarine - KM Ship Plans/Discussion, given that this is supposed to be the same weapon at all.

However in the same thread _Sarcasticat_ wrote:
_Sarcasticat_ said:
As memory serves, it was an attempt to mount four 3.7cm Flak 43 guns onto a modified 2cm Vierling chassis, possibly as a means to put guns on mounts very late in the war. If I recall correctly, the concept either was not executed or flopped very badly, as vibrations would make the guns highly inaccurate (a problem suffered to a lesser degree by 3cm MK 103 guns on the same 2cm chassis). More to follow when I get home.
Click to expand...
Which he later followed up with:
_Sarcasticat_ said:
I must have misremembered. I took these screenshots that image in 2020 and must have confused the information with the vibrations mentioned with the 3cm/44 MK 103 Flakvierling.
The purpose of the screenshots was a search for information regarding the MK 303 iirc, which I was having a bit of difficulty finding information for at the time.
Click to expand...
So was that just due to misremembering the information regarding the Flak Vierling 44 and it actually does look like I assumed at the beginning of this post?
 
--Updated posts above--

Bundesarchiv Files

[Click "DIGITALISAT ANZEIGEN" TO VIEW THE FILES]

Signatur: RH 8/3075K
Krupp 15 cm Flak L/62 - 1940

Signatur: RH 8/3253K
Krupp 15 cm Flak - 1938 - 1943

Signatur: RH 8/3908K
15 cm Flak

Signatur: RH 8/3884K
15 cm Flak Gerät 60 F

Signatur: RH 8/3255K
Gerät 65 F - Rheinmetall-Borsig

Signatur: RH 8/3039K
20,3 cm Doppelflakturm für Küste - 1942
(203mm Twin AA turret, Coastal Defence, 1942)

Signatur: RH 8/180
Verschiedene Flak (Heer und Marine) und Sondergeräte
(Various Flak Guns [Gerät 58, 2cm Rettin etc]. Luftwaffe Special Weapons SG113, SG117 etc.)
 
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Various Files

Source: Bundesarchiv

[CLICK "DIGITALISAT ANZEIGEN" TO VIEW THE FILES]

Signatur: RH 8/662
Konische Rohre für Flakwaffe - 1944

Signatur: RH 8/3252K
- Flakrohre konisch 12,8 cm/9,6 cm 1944 (squeeze bore barrel)
- 12,8 cm Flak 44 Zwilling - 1941

Signatur: RH 8/668
Konisches Rohr sowie Berichte über fahrbares Montagegestell - 1945
(Drawing: Flak 40 12,8cm K conical -
Barrel length 9645mm - muzzle velocity 1290m/s)

Signatur: RH 8/647
Vo-Steigerung für Flakwaffen - 1945
Page: 60 - 91
(Gerät 58 - Gerät 59 - 5,5/4,1cm conical squeeze-bore, 4 cm, 3,7cm)

Signatur: RH 8/393
Berichte über Versuche der Vereinigten Apparatebau - 1944-1945
(Various Files e.g. Flak 45)

Signatur: RH 8/563
Elektrische Ausrüstung von Flakgeräten - 1945
(Anlage "Egerland" gun-laying radar Kulmbach, Bayern, and Rotterbach)
 
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moin1900 said:
REMOTE CONTROLLED FLAK
Rheinmetall-Borsig Werke, Unterluss
Artillery and Weapons - 1945
by J.W. Simpson & G.W.R. Taylor
Report No.319
- remote-controlled 8.8cm Flak
- 5 cm Gerät 56
- 5,5 cm Gerät 58 & Gerät 59
[Page: 4
"Gerät 58"
Remote Power Control was apparently being developed by Siemens of Berlin.]
[Page: 6
"88 m.m. Flak Remote Power controlled Mounting"
This equipment was located and examined. It appears to be an unduly heavy mounting.]
(The report is available on Google Books.)
Click to expand...
If I'm not mistaken the report is available at https://www.google.pl/books/edition/Rheinmetall_Borsig_Werke_Unterluss/AKexDur9IzoC?hl=pl&gbpv=0

P.
 
Elektrische Flak
Source: Bundesarchiv
Signatur: RH 8/1324
Versuche mit dem elektrischen Geschütz (Linearmotor) 1944 -1945
Page: 64 - 72, 313-315, 331, 335, 337 - 420

- Joachim Hänsler & Otto Muck
- Ferngeschütz (long range artillery, range 230km)
- Schnellfeuerndes Flakgeschütz (rapid-firing anti-aircraft gun, 150rpm, 2000-3000m/s)
- Pulverelektrisches Geschütz
- Festungsgeschütz (fortress artillery, 10-12 rpm, 600m/s)
- Höhenflak (high altitude Flak)
- Raketenvorbeschleinigung / Großraketen-Starter / Elektrostarter (electromagnetic launcher)*
- "Ein Beitrag zum Problem des elektrischen Geschützes" by Dr. Joachim Hänsler
(Elektrische 4cm Flak, 10m barrel length ,2000m/s, 12 rpm)


*Sidenote:
Aggregat 4 / V-2 - Electromagnetic Launcher - 05.10.1944

"Dr.Hänsler teilt mit, dass es nach Angabe der Wasserbauversuchsanstalt Kochel moeglich sei, mit dem A4 nach Amerika zu schiessen, wenn es gelaenge, der Waffe auf anderem Wege, also z.B. elektrisch, eine Vorbeschleunigung von 500 m/s zu erteilen."

[Dr. Hänsler reports that, according to the Kochel Wasserbauversuchsanstalt, it would be possible to fire the Aggregat 4 / V-2 to America if it were possible to give the weapon a pre-acceleration of 500 m/s by other means, e.g. electrically.]
 
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Hello, I am new here. Does anybody have any blueprints of Flak 40, 45, 50, 55 , 60, 60F, 65 or any other bigger guns. I only saw the 240mm Škoda AA gun above.
 
Tromsdorff Flak Projects

Tromsdorff-Geschosse 1943 - 1945
Signatur: R 26-III/68
Source: Bundesarchiv
Page: 155 & 196, 197

- 04.01.1945
48mm MFlak
Barrel length: 9m - 14,4m
Muzzle velocity: 1800m/s

28cm Flak
Barrel length: 24m
Shell: 160kg
400 incendiary projectiles, 40g each (arrow-stabilized)

- 31.01.1945
M-FLAK 8cm
240 rpm
Barrel length: 7500mm
Muzzle velocity: 1800m/s
Shell: 5kg
Maximum ceiling: 12km
Type of propulsion:
After leaving the gun barrel, acceleration by powder rocket, followed by Tromsdorff propulsion.


Tromsdorff Projects

Lippisch Ramjet Projectiles
 
moin1900 said:
Elektrische Flak
Source: Bundesarchiv
Signatur: RH 8/1324
Versuche mit dem elektrischen Geschütz (Linearmotor) 1944 -1945
Page: 64 - 72, 313-315, 331, 335, 337 - 420

- Joachim Hänsler & Otto Muck
- Ferngeschütz (long range artillery, range 230km)
- Schnellfeuerndes Flakgeschütz (rapid-firing anti-aircraft gun, 150rpm, 2000-3000m/s)
- Pulverelektrisches Geschütz
- Festungsgeschütz (fortress artillery, 10-12 rpm, 600m/s)
- Höhenflak (high altitude Flak)
- Raketenvorbeschleinigung / Großraketen-Starter / Elektrostarter (electromagnetic launcher)*
- "Ein Beitrag zum Problem des elektrischen Geschützes" by Dr. Joachim Hänsler
(Elektrische 4cm Flak, 10m barrel length ,2000m/s, 12 rpm)


*Sidenote:
Aggregat 4 / V-2 - Electromagnetic Launcher - 05.10.1944

"Dr.Hänsler teilt mit, dass es nach Angabe der Wasserbauversuchsanstalt Kochel moeglich sei, mit dem A4 nach Amerika zu schiessen, wenn es gelaenge, der Waffe auf anderem Wege, also z.B. elektrisch, eine Vorbeschleunigung von 500 m/s zu erteilen."

[Dr. Hänsler reports that, according to the Kochel Wasserbauversuchsanstalt, it would be possible to fire the Aggregat 4 / V-2 to America if it were possible to give the weapon a pre-acceleration of 500 m/s by other means, e.g. electrically.]
Click to expand...
I am very interested in the project you mentioned regarding electromagnetic weapon systems and artillery with ultra-long range and ultra-high muzzle velocity. May I ask if any prototypes or demonstration models have been formally manufactured for the weapon systems you referenced? Are there any more detailed descriptions available? Where are these artillery systems planned to be deployed, and what are their intended applications?
 
Several experiments were conducted using the Linearmotor LM-2 test bed.

The german reports mentioned above appears to be the most comprehensive. Perhaps there are other postwar Allied reports.
The german "Waffen-Revue" magazine also reported on the "Die elektrische 4 cm Flak".
 
moin1900 said:
--Updated posts above--

Bundesarchiv Files

[Click "DIGITALISAT ANZEIGEN" TO VIEW THE FILES]

Signatur: RH 8/3075K
Krupp 15 cm Flak L/62 - 1940

Signatur: RH 8/3253K
Krupp 15 cm Flak - 1938 - 1943

Signatur: RH 8/3908K
15 cm Flak

Signatur: RH 8/3884K
15 cm Flak Gerät 60 F

Signatur: RH 8/3039K
20,3 cm Doppelflakturm für Küste - 1942
(203mm Twin AA turret, Coastal Defence, 1942)

Signatur: RH 8/180
Verschiedene Flak (Heer und Marine) und Sondergeräte
(Various Flak Guns [Gerät 58, 2cm Rettin etc]. Luftwaffe Special Weapons SG113, SG117 etc.)
Click to expand...
Are there any folders with more blueprints of these guns, that are digitalized? I would love to make a model of any of the 15cm FLAK or even 12,8cm FLAK 45
 
Unfortunately, I haven't found drawings or photos of the complete 12,8cm Flak 45. According to Ian V. Hogg's "German Artillery of World War Two," the Flak 45 was intended to have a larger chamber, a longer barrel, and a muzzle brake. A squeeze muzzle-attachment and a smoothbore barrel for firing Peenemünder Pfeilgeschosse were also proposed.

Maybe interesting?

Waffen-Revue Magazine Nr.57 & Nr.58
- 15-cm-Flak Gerät 50
- 15-cm-Flak Gerät 55
- 15-cm-Flak Gerät 60
- 15-cm-Flak Gerät 65 & 65 F
- 24-cm-Flak Gerät 80 & 85


--Summary of anti-aircraft developments--
Report Number: PB 27742
Author: Hilge, tr.
BIOS - English translation of a German summary. Descriptions, barrel specifications, ballistic data, ammunition data. "12.8 cm Flak 45 and Flak 45 twin gun, 15 cm Flak 65 , 12.8 Flak 40 K. (conical), 24 cm Flak 85"
Source:
Bibliography of Scientific and Industrial Reports, Vol.2, No.4, July 26, 1946
Page: 287 (Google Books)


Model Kits:
Bold-Division 35073
3,7cm Flakvierling Turret "Gewitter" 1:35 (What-if)

Custom Scale - 35099
12,8 cm Flak 44 - Vereinfachte Bettung
1:35 Conversion Kit

AMUSING HOBBY - 35A026
Waffenträger E-100 - 1:35 - (What-if)
(12,8 cm Flak 40, 12,8 cm Flak extended barrel and 12,8 cm/9,6cm squeeze-bore barrel)

Kraut-Kits
15cm Krupp Gerät 50 - 1:35
 
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moin1900 said:
Unfortunately, I haven't found drawings or photos of the complete 12,8cm Flak 45. According to Ian V. Hogg's "German Artillery of World War Two," the Flak 45 was intended to have a larger chamber, a longer barrel, and a muzzle brake. A squeeze muzzle-attachment and a smoothbore barrel for firing Peenemünder Pfeilgeschosse were also proposed.

Maybe interesting?

Waffen-Revue Magazine Nr.57 & Nr.58
- 15-cm-Flak Gerät 50
- 15-cm-Flak Gerät 55
- 15-cm-Flak Gerät 60
- 15-cm-Flak Gerät 65 & 65 F
- 24-cm-Flak Gerät 80 & 85


--Summary of anti-aircraft developments--
Report Number: PB 27742
Author: Hilge, tr.
BIOS - English translation of a German summary. Descriptions, barrel specifications, ballistic data, ammunition data. "12.8 cm Flak 45 and Flak 45 twin gun, 15 cm Flak 65 , 12.8 Flak 40 K. (conical), 24 cm Flak 85"
Source:
Bibliography of Scientific and Industrial Reports, Vol.2, No.4, July 26, 1946
Page: 287 (Google Books)


Model Kits:
Bold-Division 35073
3,7cm Flakvierling Turret "Gewitter" 1:35 (What-if)

Custom Scale - 35099
12,8 cm Flak 44 - Vereinfachte Bettung
1:35 Conversion Kit

AMUSING HOBBY - 35A026
Waffenträger E-100 - 1:35 - (What-if)
(12,8 cm Flak 40, 12,8 cm Flak extended barrel and 12,8 cm/9,6cm squeeze-bore barrel)

Kraut-Kits
15cm Krupp Gerät 50 - 1:35
Click to expand...
I actually finished model of Waffentrager auf E-100 with the squeeze bore barrel less than two weeks ago, and Gerat 50 by Kraut kits is sadly unavailable.
 
moin1900 said:
Unfortunately, I haven't found drawings or photos of the complete 12,8cm Flak 45. According to Ian V. Hogg's "German Artillery of World War Two," the Flak 45 was intended to have a larger chamber, a longer barrel, and a muzzle brake. A squeeze muzzle-attachment and a smoothbore barrel for firing Peenemünder Pfeilgeschosse were also proposed.

Maybe interesting?

Waffen-Revue Magazine Nr.57 & Nr.58
- 15-cm-Flak Gerät 50
- 15-cm-Flak Gerät 55
- 15-cm-Flak Gerät 60
- 15-cm-Flak Gerät 65 & 65 F
- 24-cm-Flak Gerät 80 & 85


--Summary of anti-aircraft developments--
Report Number: PB 27742
Author: Hilge, tr.
BIOS - English translation of a German summary. Descriptions, barrel specifications, ballistic data, ammunition data. "12.8 cm Flak 45 and Flak 45 twin gun, 15 cm Flak 65 , 12.8 Flak 40 K. (conical), 24 cm Flak 85"
Source:
Bibliography of Scientific and Industrial Reports, Vol.2, No.4, July 26, 1946
Page: 287 (Google Books)


Model Kits:
Bold-Division 35073
3,7cm Flakvierling Turret "Gewitter" 1:35 (What-if)

Custom Scale - 35099
12,8 cm Flak 44 - Vereinfachte Bettung
1:35 Conversion Kit

AMUSING HOBBY - 35A026
Waffenträger E-100 - 1:35 - (What-if)
(12,8 cm Flak 40, 12,8 cm Flak extended barrel and 12,8 cm/9,6cm squeeze-bore barrel)

Kraut-Kits
15cm Krupp Gerät 50 - 1:35
Click to expand...
I have never realized that the conversion set by custom scale was FLAK 44, I always read is as FLAK 40 and never thought much about it.
 
80cm Railway Gun - Flakraketen
The "Schwerer Gustav" gun was intended for testing as part of the development of anti-aircraft missiles.

November 1944 [1]
Speer:
"There is still a desire that the deployment of the Sevastopol gun (Gustav, manufactured by Krupp), which is to be used temporarily to test the effectiveness of the anti-aircraft missile, will also be under Kammler's overall supervision."

November 1944 [2]
The Führer agrees with the proposal to make one of the two "schwerer Gustav Geräte" available for preliminary tests, in order to clarify the later operational conditions of flak rockets in certain air regions using projectiles fired from it.

December 12, 1944 [3]
Program meeting with Reichsmarschall
Saur:
"I would like to request that Kammler come and report on his special construction projects. He has created a technical task force for the A4 rocket and is conducting special operational tests for the 'Langer Gustav' and the 'Geräte'."


Source:
Bundesarchiv Files
[1] Signatur: RL 3/2577; Page: 37
[2] Signatur: R 3/1510, Page: 61
[3] Signatur: RL 3/2586; Pages: 233–235
 
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Tzoli said:
Do you know about this Skoda Gun's barrel length and design date? and if it's actually 240mm or as German practice 238mm?
Click to expand...
There is no info on the Skoda variant of the 24cm gun?
 

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