UK-Japan-Italy Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP) News & Technical Analysis

IRT said:
Took 35+ years for the F35 to start replacing old F16.. will take 30+ years for the F47 to start replacing the F22.. so no if u start replacing brand new fighters after 15 years you are doing something wrong.
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May be not.
F35 was far too complicated from the beginning, with the VSTOL model along with classical birds. I think it would have been easier and fast to create 2 differents frames with the same engine and weapon system.
 
BonPlan2 said:
They have the money for bulding a GB only Combat Air Demonstrator and for a GCAP demonstrators ?
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The Flying Combat Air Demonstrator is the technology demonstrator for GCAP, same relationship as EAP to Eurofighter/Typhoon, or Rafale A/ACX to Rafale C/M. Meanwhile you're always going to have prototypes for any production aircraft - so what they're talking about here is equivalent to the Eurofighter Development Aircraft.
 
DWG said:
Not really. EAP was funded in 1983, Eurofighter started development in 1985, EAP flew in 1986 and Eurofighter DA1 in 1994. Development takes time.
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EAP was a kind of test bed for EF2000, as Rafale A for Rafale.
I know Rafale far more : Rafale A was used to explore the close coupled active canard solution (Mirage 4000 canards were not active, and not so close) + side sticks + 30° seat + mach 2 class air intakes without moving parts. Legacy Rafale, following the same overall config, has not a single piece in common with Rafale A.
 
Cold War ended in the early 90's, the Warsaw Pact and Communist Eastern Europe fell and the USSR broke up.

Kind of significant events that caused delays and cost cutting (pushing spending off into the future).

GCAP timeline isn't repeating Eurofighter history. Because events now require a very different response.
 
zen said:
GCAP timeline isn't repeating Eurofighter history. Because events now require a very different response.
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Unfortunately not in the UK where Defence is getting cut and promised budget increases get pushed further and further into the future.
 
Ron5 said:
Unfortunately not in the UK where Defence is getting cut and promised budget increases get pushed further and further into the future.
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I hope for you.
When I see how is the Royal Navy, it is not so clear.
 
Reuben James said:
How much experience does BAE have in developing and fielding radar absorbent material? Is there any information on whether the GCAP fighter will use a ceramic RAM for improved durability?

As an aside, did the Taranis demonstrator use RAM, or rely purely on stealth shaping?
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I mean between British RAM research and Japan doing the NICALON and Tyrano fibers for the F-22 RAM, there really shouldn't be any issue with GCAP sourcing a solid RAM coating.
 
DWG said:
2023/24: £53.9Bn
2024/25: £56.9Bn
2025/26: £59.8Bn + £2.2Bn added in the Spring Statement

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8175/
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Unfortunately these budget number do not tell the whole story. You need to go look into what the money is or isn't being spent on. What the UK government is assigning to to be paid out of that budget that is not directly defence related.

Then you can also take a look at the state of equipment and personnel in the forces.

How many 155mm guns are there? Answer: 14 for the entire army. How many amphibious warfare ships are left after Albion & Bulwark disposals? How many frigates are in service? How many submarines? How many RAF squadrons?

Ah but you say, look at the new orders for artillery, amphib ships, submarines, and aircraft? And how are personnel numbers holding up?

Starmer's government has ordered none, zero, zilch and serving personnel numbers are at lows not seen for 300 years.

Instead orders placed by the last governments are being artificially slowed to save money. Challengers, Boxers, Ajax, Type 26 frigates are being built as slowly as possible with delivery dates stretched well into the future. No new Typhoons or F-35. Inadequate spares purchased as shown by the lengthy stays of F-35's in India and Japan. The list goes on.

Yes, UK defence is being cut and by a lot. Go ask your UK service men and women their views. You can catch them on the door out.
 
Ron5 said:
Unfortunately these budget number do not tell the whole story.
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No, of course they don't, but the fact is the defence budget is up 15% since Labour took power.

Ron5 said:
How many amphibious warfare ships are left after Albion & Bulwark disposals? How many frigates are in service? How many submarines? How many RAF squadrons?
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The absolutely essential question to understanding what's happening is which government cut them? And the answer is not the current Labour government, but the previous Tory government(s). Labour can't fix 12 years of sustained defence cuts in an instant. And it's not simply publicised disposals; it's how much of the Navy, such as Albion and Bulwark, were left to rot quayside because the Tories had cut RN manning to the point they couldn't be operated, and the consequences of that.

Ron5 said:
Ah but you say, look at the new orders for artillery, amphib ships, submarines, and aircraft?
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Maybe don't try and put a strawman in my mouth?

Ron5 said:
And how are personnel numbers holding up? ... serving personnel numbers are at lows not seen in 300 years.
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Unfortunately you can't simply order up 30,000 new personnel. And we've had a decade plus of the services being allowed to become an unattractive career option with repeated (and incredibly morale sapping) redundancy programmes. You can't fix that quickly.

Ron5 said:
Instead orders placed by the last governments are being artificially slowed to save money. Challengers, Boxers, Ajax, Type 26 frigates are being built as slowly as possible with delivery dates stretched well into the future.
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Given the absolute mess the Tories made of defence contracting (3 E-7s for much the cost at which we'd been offered 5?), there's actually some logic to Labour having insisted on waiting for the Strategic Defence Review. Unfortunately the electoral commitments they made to not increase taxation have come back to bite them (of course the Tories would be operating under exactly the same promise, and were the ones who forced Labour into it). And yet the defence budget is still up 15% over two budget cycles.

Ron5 said:
No new Typhoons or F-35.
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There's a dozen F-35As that don't fit that narrative of no new orders under Labour. WRT Typhoon, I'd obviously prefer an increased fleet, but honestly I'm not sure F-35s aren't the better buy for our current strategic needs, 48 of a planned buy of 138 under the Tories is not impressive. In the meantime Typhoon Tranche 3B + ECRS Mk2 is not at all shabby and much what we'd be getting from any new order. And of course the issue with any significant Typhoon or F-35 order is who is going to fly them? New pilots don't turn up at the snap of your fingers, their creation is the work of years. (SDR: Outstanding training is needed for the RAF to remain effective but current arrangements for fast jet training are inadequate, meaning UK pilots are currently sent abroad to train.)

Equally there's StormShroud joining the fleet, even if that's a very specialised acquisition.

Ron5 said:
Inadequate spares purchased as shown by the lengthy stays of F-35's in India and Japan.
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Here's the thing, inadequate spares acquisition is nothing to do with this year's budget, nor something that can be fixed in an instant - look at the NH-90, where it's been ongoing for at least a decade across the entire multinational fleet, to the point that parting-out the entire Australian fleet is actually a sensible economic move. Nor are specialist parts available overnight from the suppliers at the cost of a phone call, their production may be committed for years in advance (look at P&W's inability to fix the issues with the PW1000 series, which is at three years and rising, never mind the airlines queueing up to throw money at any solution). This complaint really points to you not understanding the core issues of defence procurement.

Ron5 said:
Yes, UK defence is being cut and by a lot. Go ask your UK service men and women their views. You can catch them on the door out.
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And who opened the door to them?
 
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Reuben James said:
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/japan-to-deploy-f-15s-to-uk-in-historic-first/
Slightly off topic, but the article raises the interesting possibility that if Anglo-Japanese cooperation continues to grow, we could eventually see inter-deployments of the GCAP fighter between the UK and Japan.
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The CCA's communication system is common among Japan, the UK, and Italy, which use GCAP, so it may be possible to lend out the CCA in an emergency.
Ukraine is having difficulty procuring manned aircraft, but procuring the CCA should be easy.
 
DWG said:
No, of course they don't, but the fact is the defence budget is up 15% since Labour took power.


The absolutely essential question to understanding what's happening is which government cut them? And the answer is not the current Labour government, but the previous Tory government(s). Labour can't fix 12 years of sustained defence cuts in an instant. And it's not simply publicised disposals; it's how much of the Navy, such as Albion and Bulwark, were left to rot quayside because the Tories had cut RN manning to the point they couldn't be operated, and the consequences of that.


Maybe don't try and put a strawman in my mouth?


Unfortunately you can't simply order up 30,000 new personnel. And we've had a decade plus of the services being allowed to become an unattractive career option with repeated (and incredibly morale sapping) redundancy programmes. You can't fix that quickly.



Given the absolute mess the Tories made of defence contracting (3 E-7s for much the cost at which we'd been offered 5?), there's actually some logic to Labour having insisted on waiting for the Strategic Defence Review. Unfortunately the electoral commitments they made to not increase taxation have come back to bite them (of course the Tories would be operating under exactly the same promise, and were the ones who forced Labour into it). And yet the defence budget is still up 15% over two budget cycles.


There's a dozen F-35As that don't fit that narrative of no new orders under Labour. WRT Typhoon, I'd obviously prefer an increased fleet, but honestly I'm not sure F-35s aren't the better buy for our current strategic needs, 48 of a planned buy of 138 under the Tories is not impressive. In the meantime Typhoon Tranche 3B + ECRS Mk2 is not at all shabby and much what we'd be getting from any new order. And of course the issue with any significant Typhoon or F-35 order is who is going to fly them? New pilots don't turn up at the snap of your fingers, their creation is the work of years. (SDR: Outstanding training is needed for the RAF to remain effective but current arrangements for fast jet training are inadequate, meaning UK pilots are currently sent abroad to train.)

Equally there's StormShroud joining the fleet, even if that's a very specialised acquisition.


Here's the thing, inadequate spares acquisition is nothing to do with this year's budget, nor something that can be fixed in an instant - look at the NH-90, where it's been ongoing for at least a decade across the entire multinational fleet, to the point that parting-out the entire Australian fleet is actually a sensible economic move. Nor are specialist parts available overnight from the suppliers at the cost of a phone call, their production may be committed for years in advance (look at P&W's inability to fix the issues with the PW1000 series, which is at three years and rising, never mind the airlines queueing up to throw money at any solution). This complaint really points to you not understanding the core issues of defence procurement.


And who opened the door to them?
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I have no interest in a political debate. My OP had no mention of UK politics.

BTW, your post is riddled with errors not the least being that 12 F-35A's have been ordered. They have not.
 
Ron5 said:
I have no interest in a political debate. My OP had no mention of UK politics.
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That's odd, because every point you made seemed to have a political element. Could it be that defence policy is somehow fundamentally linked to the government in power?

Ron5 said:
BTW, your post is riddled with errors not the least being that 12 F-35A's have been ordered. They have not.
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That literally does not matter for the point I was making, they're planned in the SDR, that's sufficient to see a change in policy has occurred. BTW, how long do you think it takes to order 12 F-35As? Or any major defence project? Because, like your complaint over spares holdings, I really get the feeling you don't understand how complicated and potentially lengthy the process is.

As for 'riddled with errors', I've just checked and every point I made is correct. Perhaps you can point out these alleged errors?
 
https://rssystem.go.jp/project/395a034a-36f4-40c0-879b-ede1ac1cea1aThe amount of next year's budget to be spent has been revealed.
This is a combination of this year's request and the continuing budget.
359,760,226,000Yen=2,085,530,030EUR

https://rssystem.go.jp/project/395a034a-36f4-40c0-879b-ede1ac1cea1a?activeKey=paymentThe expenditure on GIGO is only 4 billion yen=23,204,000EUR
I thought I would pay the full amount to GIGO, who would then pay Mitsubishi, Leonardo, etc., but that seems incorrect.
 
momosir said:
https://rssystem.go.jp/project/395a034a-36f4-40c0-879b-ede1ac1cea1aThe amount of next year's budget to be spent has been revealed.
This is a combination of this year's request and the continuing budget.
359,760,226,000Yen=2,085,530,030EUR

https://rssystem.go.jp/project/395a034a-36f4-40c0-879b-ede1ac1cea1a?activeKey=paymentThe expenditure on GIGO is only 4 billion yen=23,204,000EUR
I thought I would pay the full amount to GIGO, who would then pay Mitsubishi, Leonardo, etc., but that seems incorrect.
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The list on that tab includes payments not only for current fiscal year's contracts but also for ones from previous years, and I think the 4 billion yen funding for GIGO comes from the one in the FY24 budget request, in which it was described as operating costs for the organization, which doesn't seem to include R&D.

Here's the budgets for payments to GIGO, that's 72,209,987,000 yen for FY25, and 189,016,330,000 yen for FY26 request.
https://rssystem.go.jp/project/395a034a-36f4-40c0-879b-ede1ac1cea1a?activeKey=detailed-breakdownThere's still considerable amount of funding that doesn't go directly to GIGO though.
 
Kota said:
We now have a preliminary model of GCAPs engine and it so far just looks like a further along model of the XF9-1
https://www.jwing.net/news/63179
FrZuYLVaEAE5GYu

ihi.jpg
XF9-1%2Bengine.png
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Thats not GCAP engine., the first image Its Indias Kaveri engine.Kaveri engine (GTREX-35VS) is an Indian-developed, low-bypass, twin-spool turbofan engine project, begun in the 1980s by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) with the goal of creating an indigenous engine for India's light combat aircraft (LCA), the Tejas
 
duker said:
Thats not GCAP engine., the first image Its Indias Kaveri engine.Kaveri engine (GTREX-35VS) is an Indian-developed, low-bypass, twin-spool turbofan engine project, begun in the 1980s by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) with the goal of creating an indigenous engine for India's light combat aircraft (LCA), the Tejas
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Before you make any silly guesses, you should do a Google image search of the first image.
You'll find many photos from DSEI JAPAN 2023 from different angles.
This engine is said to be a prototype for the GCAP, and was announced at DSEI Japan 2023.
The photo is also from DSEI Japan 2023.
This engine is the XF9-1 itself. India has nothing to do with it.
The evidence that the first photo is the XF9-1 is the second and third photos.
The third photo is taken from the following Japanese government document:

防衛装備庁試作仕様書（ Acquisition, Technology & Logistics Agency[ATLA],Prototype specifications）
戦闘機用エンジンシステムの研究試作（Research and prototype of fighter engine systems）
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HJEhf2QCMDXURfrrfBtw1avKKNROy6N6/view?usp=sharing
 
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NICA said:
The list on that tab includes payments not only for current fiscal year's contracts but also for ones from previous years, and I think the 4 billion yen funding for GIGO comes from the one in the FY24 budget request, in which it was described as operating costs for the organization, which doesn't seem to include R&D.

Here's the budgets for payments to GIGO, that's 72,209,987,000 yen for FY25, and 189,016,330,000 yen for FY26 request.
https://rssystem.go.jp/project/395a034a-36f4-40c0-879b-ede1ac1cea1a?activeKey=detailed-breakdownThere's still considerable amount of funding that doesn't go directly to GIGO though.
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As you say, GIGO's budget is correct!
It was for FY24.
 
Looks like the GCAP/Tempest model has not changed much since the last time it appeared Is this a sign that Edgewing are happy how the design looks?
 

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No HUD - which is pretty much what we were expecting.

ETA: And very low to the ground, which is going to make accessing a weapons bay an utter pain, doubly so with doors open. So I'm not sure I'd consider that layout definitive.
 
Which is hardly surprising these days considering that the F-35 was first fighter to come without HUDs, I am not surprised that the GCAP/Tempest would not be following in the footsteps of the F-35 as well.
 
https://www.defensenews.com/global/...twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=tw_dfn
British, Italian and Japanese firms set to build sensors and communications systems for the GCAP fighter have formed a UK-based consortium ready to sign a design and development contract with the platform’s lead integrators.

Known as GCAP Electronics Evolution (G2E), the consortium groups Leonardo and ELT Group from Italy, Leonardo UK and Mitsubishi Electric representing Japan, the firms said at the DSEI show in London.
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Given their national strengths, it is likely the U.K. and Japanese firms will take the lead on radar work, Italy will lead on Infrared Search and Track systems and Japan will lead on satellite communications.
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