Very weird unidentified flying boat... Can anyone help?

Stargazer

Stargazer

ACCESS: USAP
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
25 June 2009
Messages
15,515
Reaction score
9,447
Our friend Johan Visschedijk (1000aircraftphotos.com) has brought to my attention this poor quality photograph of a flying boat that nobody seems able to identify.

My impression from looking at the image is that the wings and engines seem to have been snatched from an aircraft and grafted onto a boat, since the fuselage does not seem to have the required length or shape for a workable flying boat, and it doesn't seem to have a nose, either. Also the tail seems to be lacking a vertical fin, while the only vertical appendix visible on top of the fuselage looks more like a mast to me (you can even see where the bracing is attached).

Any thoughts? Has anyone come across this weird contraption before? Does the photo show a real flying boat or not? What does it seem to you?

1757166859721.png
 
Pretty sure the fuselage is longer than it makes you think, it's a deceptive angle. You're definitely looking at twin vertical tails, one mostly hidden behind the engine to the left of the picture, you can just see its foot and tip and that the rudder is turned to port.

But it doesn't ring a bell.
 
Would I be correct in assuming that the gentleman whose photo it is, Bernd Heller of Neuwied, Germany, does not know what the aircraft is either?

Incidentally, the fact that this (German??) flying boat appears to be powered by a pair of 5-cylinder radials, Siemens & Halske Sh 10 or Sh 13 mayyybe, might indicate that it was a fairly small and light machine.
 
fortrena said:
Would I be correct in assuming that the gentleman whose photo it is, Bernd Heller of Neuwied, Germany, does not know what the aircraft is either?
Click to expand...
That is exactly what I implied in saying "that nobody seems able to identify"...

DWG said:
You're definitely looking at twin vertical tails, one mostly hidden behind the engine to the left of the picture, you can just see its foot and tip and that the rudder is turned to port.
Click to expand...
You are right, I can see it now.
 
Stargazer said:
Our friend Johan Visschedijk (1000aircraftphotos.com) has brought to my attention this poor quality photograph of a flying boat that nobody seems able to identify.

My impression from looking at the image is that the wings and engines seem to have been snatched from an aircraft and grafted onto a boat, since the fuselage does not seem to have the required length or shape for a workable flying boat, and it doesn't seem to have a nose, either. Also the tail seems to be lacking a vertical fin, while the only vertical appendix visible on top of the fuselage looks more like a mast to me (you can even see where the bracing is attached).

Any thoughts? Has anyone come across this weird contraption before? Does the photo show a real flying boat or not? What does it seem to you?
Click to expand...

The engines seems to be 5 cylinders radial. Kinner K-5 engines ? An US prototype ? Mystery and gumdrop ... :cool:
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinner_K-5
 
archipeppe said:
Nope, I don't think.
Never seen a Savoia Marchetti's design like this...
Click to expand...

See S-63. Apart from the engine configuration, it looks closely related.
The Atlantic crossing by S-55 made great impression around the world that could have raise the attention of copycats.
 
The style of the nose section somewhat reminds me of the Saro Cloud in form - but of course its not a Cloud fuselage.
It certainly looks more like a boat hull than a flying boat hull. The wing position beats me, being right in the centre of the cabin - the spars would make most of the cabin useable it seems.

If those are Kinner radials (and it looks like they might be), then the size of this machine is probably less than it appears at first glance. Probably a two or four-seater at best. At around 320hp it would seem pretty low powered though. By style and I'd date it around the early 1930s - 1931-34ish.

It could well be someone's project who - inspired by the Savoia S.55s - decided to take a boat, stick a cabin top on it and monoplane wings. Generally it feels a little too accomplished to be a garden shed lash-up job, but on the other hand it's not a refined design that you'd expect from an experienced aircraft designer.
 
Hood said:
It could well be someone's project who - inspired by the Savoia S.55s - decided to take a boat, stick a cabin top on it and monoplane wings. Generally it feels a little too accomplished to be a garden shed lash-up job, but on the other hand it's not a refined design that you'd expect from an experienced aircraft designer.
Click to expand...
My suspicion is, that its an experimental design from some small company; most likely a modernization of existing model. And I agree, it looks quite similar to Saro flying boats.
 
TomcatViP said:
See S-63. Apart from the engine configuration, it looks closely related.
Click to expand...
There is some obvious resemblance, but apart from that such odd design still isn't a Savoia Marchetti's one.
The S-63 was a simpler (single hull, single engine) version of the more capable S-55.
This unknown design still is real different:
- dual engines apart (while the S-63 has two engines in line)
- Dornier's style hull
- Wing has dihedral (usually Savoia Marchetti wings were straight)
- Wing is in middle position while Savoia usually is in high position

1757238403418.png
 
Hood said:
It could well be someone's project who - inspired by the Savoia S.55s - decided to take a boat, stick a cabin top on it and monoplane wings. Generally it feels a little too accomplished to be a garden shed lash-up job, but on the other hand it's not a refined design that you'd expect from an experienced aircraft designer.
Click to expand...
I concur 100% with everything you've written.

I'd like to underline a few design oddities, some of which have already been mentioned:

1757238458232.png

Have I missed anything?
 
I spent some time searching for the answer to this last night, going by country, engine, wing and tail types. Nothing.

As archipepe states it seems to have design language from multiple different manufacturers built around what I assume is an actual boat hull. This has to be a one off failure. Whatever is going on under the wings is very odd, they have to be sponsons but could make it an amphibian too. I am going to say its either american or russian as they could be shvetsov radials. I would also suggest it could be post ww2.
 
Stargazer said:
What makes you think so? All the design details suggest something from the very late '20s/early '30s. Look at all the wire bracing!
Click to expand...
Seems like the best indicator of date is what the engines are.

If its russian/soviet design using Shvetsov M-11s and its a monoplane design with a fairly conventional wing then I would think that it could well be post war early 50s at latest with the aircraft parts maybe even coming completely from other airframes. Quality of the photo wouldn't be that out of touch either.

If its a US design using Kinner engines, then I could see it being post war just because of the amount of them that would be available for the same reasons as the Shvetsov.

Yes, the bracing seems old fashioned but if its wire then its encased in aero fairings or it could be more structurally substantial, and the tailplane looks sort of sikorsky-esque but the wings doesn't look 30s in design and construction to me.

your 'weird rudder annotation' looks like an elevator extension working as an aerodynamic balance.
 
Last edited:
Dilandu said:
I thought about Towle, but he build just four airplanes, and none of them looks exactly like this:

View attachment 783918
Click to expand...
yes, reverse the engines, move that wing down and give it the Towle 3 tailplane and that pretty much is the aircraft we're looking for.

Maybe we are seeing a towle 0.5 or 2.5 that didn't make it and wasn't documented? The similarities are striking imo.

It looked like Towle was a part of some federated set of companies in Detroit so it could be due to working with some other company.
 
Dilandu said:
For the post-WW2 the quality of photo is too low, IMHO.
Click to expand...
Unless it's Soviet or related!

coanda said:
I think we're getting closer....
Click to expand...
Not sure... I discarded Towle from the onslaught because they used cantilever wings in top position (their first model, the WC, even had it in parasol position, which was highly unusual).
 
coanda said:
yes, reverse the engines, move that wing down and give it the Towle 3 tailplane and that pretty much is the aircraft we're looking for.

Maybe we are seeing a towle 0.5 or 2.5 that didn't make it and wasn't documented? The similarities are striking imo.

It looked like Towle was a part of some federated set of companies in Detroit so it could be due to working with some other company.
Click to expand...
I also checked available data and images of Towle flying boats. None of them match the example on the image: not by layout, not by size, not by excessive complexity. Frankly, I couldn't remember any monoplane with a relatively thick wing (nearly cantilever) and the system of struts on the top side. The unclear stabilizing devices - not floats, not stummels, also wondering me.
 
It also bears a passing resemblance to stuff Sanders Roe and Boeing Canada did

totem2.jpg


The Totem flying boat.

Vickers Canada Vista

60f8bc7eebfb7dc12ed8289a_Canadian-Vickers-Vista--Oct-1928--CFB-Shearwater-Photo-Collection--14-.jpeg
 
That plane is strange for flying boat
normally those build with shoulder wing to keep wing (and engines) away from water.
but that strange plane has a mid wing mounted midway up the fuselage
can be this just two seater ? since wing goes true fuselage.

1757238458232-png.783906
 
So after bombarding Copilot it is unable to identify the aircraft (and it listed seemingly almost every flying boat from the interwar period).

To me it looks like an old faked image (probably done in MS Paint, and badly) then resaved in a deliberately poor resolution in an attempt to hide the fact. Where does the original come from? Is an actual photo available anywhere?
 
Michel Van said:
normally those build with shoulder wing to keep wing (and engines) away from water.
but that strange plane has a mid wing mounted midway up the fuselage
can be this just two seater ? since wing goes true fuselage.
Click to expand...
Amphibia, likely, designed to be used from both land and water.

scautomoton said:
To me it looks like an old faked image (probably done in MS Paint, and badly) then resaved in a deliberately poor resolution in an attempt to hide the fact. Where does the original come from? Is an actual photo available anywhere?
Click to expand...
A possibiliy, true.
 
Michel Van said:
It so ugly it could be Interwar French design...
Click to expand...
Oh, come on! Only the designs that were specifically commissioned by the Air Ministry in answer to their oft-ridiculous specifications were ugly. Not to be chauvinistic here, but there are dozens of absolutely gorgeous French civilian designs in the interwar years from the likes of Bernard, Caudron, Lignel and many, many others.
 
I doubt, that this image has been produced manually or with AI - despite its' low resolution and lack of quality, it has one distinctive advantage (for me) - the convincing perspective of whole aircraft' parts. It could be hardly archived by hand drawing and assembling image from the parts. Of course, it's possible to use 3D editor, then "destruct" the image.

Perhaps, Mr. Johan Visschedijk could contact the person, which copyright displayed in the center of photo? Or someone would like to try to asks Mr. Bernd Heller?

The closest Soviet aircraft, imho, is SPL (OSGA-101) - with some distinctive features, it also give the overall impressions of single-engine small flying boat
spl1-9.jpg
 
C'mon guys!
It is too odd to be false.
Take such features:

- Crancked mid position wing
- Boatlike hull
- Shves'tov like engines in two above nacelles

All those stuff scream RUSSIA rather than France (or Italy, or anything else).
Even myself start thinking about a possilbe Chyetverikov's design (like the OSGA-101 posted by @Silencer1 ).
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom