Chengdu J-20 news and analysis Part III

J-20A/S in a new paint scheme leading a pair of J-20 in formation flight.

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FighterJock said:
So why the new RAM coating? Is it to make the J-20 more difficult to detect to certain types of radar?
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At least from what I've heard, the J-20 has a decently low radar cross-section against X/Ku-band radar (which is commonly used for fire-control) but the radar cross-section is rather high when a S to VHF band radar is directed towards it. So you can see the J-20 approaching from some distance away before you can lock it (This is something that affects all the 5th gens, F-22, F-35, Su-57 etc.) but it is likely that it affects the J-20 a bit more than the others, as the J-20 is quite large in terms of physical proportions.

So I would imagine that this new RAM coating is trying to address this deficiency. It would be interesting to see if existing J-20s are also re-coated or if it is only for the J-20A/J-20S for now.
 
cft4201 said:
Apparently it's a new type of RAM coating.
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While the newer variant has newer RAM coatings, I do not think that the change in paint color should be taken as a point of inference for the newer coatings.
In other words, I think it would be more appropriate to say that it has an updated RAM coating not because its a different color but because its a newer plane.

Personally, I don't think this new paint scheme is permanent but is an one off livery for the testing brigades (the tail #s 78xxx indicate that these should be with the 176th FTTB)

On the topic of upgrades, these newer models are also said to have an updated radar and an updated 360 deg. electro-optical targeting system.
 
Oh my... the J-20A, fresh in service and drippin' in aura.

What's especially notable besides the a pair of WS-10C2s is the new 360° EOTS, which offers a wider field of view compared to the previous one.

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vanishingelephant said:
While the newer variant has newer RAM coatings, I do not think that the change in paint color should be taken as a point of inference for the newer coatings.
In other words, I think it would be more appropriate to say that it has an updated RAM coating not because its a different color but because its a newer plane.

Personally, I don't think this new paint scheme is permanent but is an one off livery for the testing brigades (the tail #s 78xxx indicate that these should be with the 176th FTTB)

On the topic of upgrades, these newer models are also said to have an updated radar and an updated 360 deg. electro-optical targeting system.
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There's also a new engine (the nozzle length is different compared to the current WS-10C) but it's not WS-15, it's something along the lines of WS-10C2 (an improved variant of it).
 
That new EOTS for the J-20 certainly is much bigger than the previous one snne, wonder what the internal difference will be compared to the old model.
 
snne said:
Oh my... the J-20A, fresh in service and drippin' in aura.

What's especially notable besides the a pair of WS-10C2s is the new 360° EOTS, which offers a wider field of view compared to the previous one.

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The radome also looks like it was reworked, with more "teeth" on the bottom at least. Could this indicate a new radar as well?
 
vanishingelephant said:
While the newer variant has newer RAM coatings, I do not think that the change in paint color should be taken as a point of inference for the newer coatings.
In other words, I think it would be more appropriate to say that it has an updated RAM coating not because its a different color but because its a newer plane.

Personally, I don't think this new paint scheme is permanent but is an one off livery for the testing brigades (the tail #s 78xxx indicate that these should be with the 176th FTTB)
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Certainly a possibility, after all the J-20 went through a couple of paint and camouflage schemes throughout it's life.

Given the involvement of CAC I could imagine that at least with regards to material science and application processes, the J-20A/S might have reaped some benefits from the ongoing J-36 development and trickle down of tech. Or perhaps serving somewhat of a testbed for some applications and technologies (I'm particularly looking towards the J-20S in that regard, due to the two seat nature).
 
EmoBirb said:
The radome also looks like it was reworked, with more "teeth" on the bottom at least. Could this indicate a new radar as well?
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Oh, there's definitely an even better radar in there, as all the evidence points to it. AFAIK, this'll be the third radar used on the J-20: the first one was a GaAs with 1,856 TRMs, and all we know about the second one is that it is known to use GaN modules.

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You have to remember that the radome has been reworked too:

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snne said:
Oh, there's definitely an even better radar in there, as all the evidence points to it. AFAIK, this'll be the third radar used on the J-20: the first one was a GaAs with 1,856 TRMs, and all we know about the second one is that it is known to use GaN modules.

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You have to remember that the radome has been reworked too:

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Thanks for the insight. Would that make the J-20 the only 5th generation fighter with a GaN based AESA? As far as I am aware F-22 and Su-57 use GaAs, I'm unsure about the F-35 but if it does feature GaN it surely has less T/R modules, no? Given the size difference between the F-35 and J-20. It's certainly an impressive development for the favorite child of the PLAAF. And the reworked fuselage behind the canopy gives it a pleasing side profile now as well.
 
EmoBirb said:
Thanks for the insight. Would that make the J-20 the only 5th generation fighter with a GaN based AESA? As far as I am aware F-22 and Su-57 use GaAs, I'm unsure about the F-35 but if it does feature GaN it surely has less T/R modules, no? Given the size difference between the F-35 and J-20. It's certainly an impressive development for the favorite child of the PLAAF. And the reworked fuselage behind the canopy gives it a pleasing side profile now as well.
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The J-35/A also uses GaN based AESA radar. Together with the later iterations of the J-20 they are the only two 5th gen fighters with GaN radars currently. KF-21 also has a GaN based radar but it isn't a 5th gen fighter.

F-35 Block 4 should get the GaN based AN/APG-85 and the Murad-600 is also going to be GaN based.
 
People always doubt whether an airframe could be made first and new engines, internal sensors and what not be added later, but that never seems to be the case with the J20.

When you add a new internal sensor, or a 2 seater cockpit, or even a new engine how much re-engineering are you doing? Do you design the planform for an future engine? Or so you make it work with what usually have an then re-certify the airframe again with new engines and other airframe changes? Also what tradeoffs might one be making with adding those features to an existing airframe? Maybe thats the difference between perfect and good enough (in terms of overall performance)

It makes no sense that you can do that to an F16, an F15, and F18 and you can do that with a J20 but it becomes doubtful with something like a 6th gen airframe..
 
Twin Seat J-20S #78333 - Having seen the top of the plane, I'm a bit more convinced that this could actually be the permanent color scheme for the new variants - the top side still retains the splotchy pattern same as the current model J-20, albeit in a lower contrast.
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Bit higher detail J-20S/A
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Blitzo said:
That image looks like it has been spruced up/enhanced by the camera's automatic AI a bit (looking at details like the PLAAF roundels), but it's still a fair representation of its colour.
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It looks processed within an inch of its life.
 
The J-20A and J-20S are really easy on the eyes, truly my compliments to the people at CAC. It will be interesting to see/read/hear overtime what new equipment is packed by the two.

WS-15 and AL-51 not being ready is becoming quite a meme though.
 
EmoBirb said:
The J-20A and J-20S are really easy on the eyes, truly my compliments to the people at CAC. It will be interesting to see/read/hear overtime what new equipment is packed by the two.

WS-15 and AL-51 not being ready is becoming quite a meme though.
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The issue with WS-15 is mainly with scaling production, Chengdu can produce the airframe and subsystems much faster. from what I've heard the engine needs just a bit more polishing from renowned PLA watchers such as Orca, the use of the term "polishing" suggests to me one should expect to see WS-15s somewhat soon, but currently it's an improved WS-10C and it's quite possible that this "WS-10C2" that some have dubbed reaches the planned performance specifications of the WS-15 back in the 2000s (so 150-160KN thrust range). To put into contrast, the current WS-10C's maximum thrust is approximately around the 147KN mark.
 
EmoBirb said:
The J-20A and J-20S are really easy on the eyes, truly my compliments to the people at CAC. It will be interesting to see/read/hear overtime what new equipment is packed by the two.

WS-15 and AL-51 not being ready is becoming quite a meme though.
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Back in the day, before any of the real ATF designs were made public, the general consensus was that it would be a canard / delta. Nobody in the public really knew much about stealth, which is why all the speculation centered around rounded corners and dorsal inlets. The J-20 looks like what I'd hoped the ATF would look like. Of all the 5th gen I think it looks the best but a production F-23A would be a close second.
 
EmoBirb said:
Certainly a possibility, after all the J-20 went through a couple of paint and camouflage schemes throughout it's life.

Given the involvement of CAC I could imagine that at least with regards to material science and application processes, the J-20A/S might have reaped some benefits from the ongoing J-36 development and trickle down of tech. Or perhaps serving somewhat of a testbed for some applications and technologies (I'm particularly looking towards the J-20S in that regard, due to the two seat nature).
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We know that successive batches of J-20s have seen improvements in materials and subsystems as production batches progressed.

J-20A/S naturally being a more major variant/s, will see more significant improvements in materials and subsystems and structure.


However I also strongly agree that improvements in materials should not be predicated on the appearance (whether it's similarity or different) to the camouflage/paint scheme of J-20s.


In theory, J-20A/S could have the same identical paint scheme as J-20, or it could have a neon pink paint scheme, or anything in between, and the underlying thesis that "J-20A/S has meaningful improvements in materials including external RAM" should not be different among any of those situations.
 
Blitzo said:
We know that successive batches of J-20s have seen improvements in materials and subsystems as production batches progressed.

J-20A/S naturally being a more major variant/s, will see more significant improvements in materials and subsystems and structure.


However I also strongly agree that improvements in materials should not be predicated on the appearance (whether it's similarity or different) to the camouflage/paint scheme of J-20s.


In theory, J-20A/S could have the same identical paint scheme as J-20, or it could have a neon pink paint scheme, or anything in between, and the underlying thesis that "J-20A/S has meaningful improvements in materials including external RAM" should not be different among any of those situations.
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That used to be a standard thing. Hell, the F-4 went all the way to the S-model, and then some.
 

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