Colonization of Mars




Millions of years to get us to a point whereas we can exist on earth, don't think we have the time left to start again.

Regards,
As these are all really the same argument, from this paper, they can all be addressed together. The key quote for anyone interested in space settlement is this, from the New Atlas article: "You can’t protect them from galactic radiation using shielding," which is not true, though absent further detail on why that got said may provide further context. Does 'can't protect' mean that he thinks it's scientifically impossible? Financially impossible? I've encountered many people who are dubious about providing any sort of radiation protection to astronauts, but their reasoning generally resolves to them thinking it is too expensive to provide adequate radiation shielding beyond Earth. The issues they raise are worth addressing, but I'd argue they're not showstoppers.
that Biosphere 2 experiment show how difficult that is
the site had close ecosystem to support crew of eight person from 1991 to 1993
the experiment had serious issue like collapse of part the installed ecosystem, Ant infestation (became dominant species in Biosphere 2)
Dropping oxygen level do it absorption by concrete and outgassing CO2
during first year the crew experience hunger do issue of farming but solve the issue.

As I recall, the Biosphere 2 experiment was somewhat sabotaged from within, and could have benefited from better leadership. It would be worth doing a Biosphere 3 to learn more.
 
As these are all really the same argument, from this paper, they can all be addressed together. The key quote for anyone interested in space settlement is this, from the New Atlas article: "You can’t protect them from galactic radiation using shielding," which is not true, though absent further detail on why that got said may provide further context. Does 'can't protect' mean that he thinks it's scientifically impossible? Financially impossible? I've encountered many people who are dubious about providing any sort of radiation protection to astronauts, but their reasoning generally resolves to them thinking it is too expensive to provide adequate radiation shielding beyond Earth. The issues they raise are worth addressing, but I'd argue they're not showstoppers.

As I recall, the Biosphere 2 experiment was somewhat sabotaged from within, and could have benefited from better leadership. It would be worth doing a Biosphere 3 to learn more.
They can continue to spend the money needed to develop an electromagnetic engine and an electromagnetic radiation shield on biospheres, but it will be useless... when the results of Biosphere-16 come in, scientists will finally understand that you can't separate a part of humanity without taking with you millions of tons of essential things that we don't normally care about. Robinson Crusoe had air, water, food, and a magnetic shield against radiation... he didn't need more to survive. In space the known dangers are already overwhelming, but what about the ones we don't know yet?... are we going to discover them experimenting with poor guys eager for adventures?

We must get out there, it's a matter of life or death for the species, but we still don't have the means to do things right and we will never have them if we continue to waste resources on environmental utopias.
 
They can continue to spend the money needed to develop an electromagnetic engine and an electromagnetic radiation shield on biospheres, but it will be useless... when the results of Biosphere-16 come in, scientists will finally understand that you can't separate a part of humanity without taking with you millions of tons of essential things that we don't normally care about. Robinson Crusoe had air, water, food, and a magnetic shield against radiation... he didn't need more to survive. In space the known dangers are already overwhelming, but what about the ones we don't know yet?... are we going to discover them experimenting with poor guys eager for adventures?
We don't need an electromagnetic engine or an 'electromagnetic radiation shield,' whatever that is. Simple mass is sufficient - water, polyethylene, or even boring old regolith in sufficient quantities can do the trick to prevent any radiation from penetrating. Cladosporium sphaerospermum is also worth looking into further, as it feeds on radiation. There's no way to find out what the unknown unknowns are unless we go. Also, we have plenty of technology available to us now (especially in the area of food production) that the builders of the Biospheres did not, and we also don't need to build a completely closed system right away. All we need to do is ensure that losses of anything important are slow enough that they can be replaced, and over time we can learn to cycle more raw materials. Earth itself isn't a truly closed system, though it appears that way.

As for the 'poor guys eager for adventure,' two notes: they have the right to do what they please with their own lives, even if others disagree, it's just up to anyone who sponsors them to ensure they're aware of what known risks there are; two, most challenges are less acute when we can afford to send lots of mass to orbit at low cost. Radiation, artificial gravity, ECLSS, etc., are all to a first order a mass problem.

We must get out there, it's a matter of life or death for the species, but we still don't have the means to do things right and we will never have them if we continue to waste resources on environmental utopias.
What do you mean by 'environmental utopias'? Are you referring to the Biosphere projects? I think it's a stretch to refer to them that way.
 
To drill for hydrocarbons and ship them back to Mars means operating in Saturn's powerful radiation environment

I think you're getting confused with Jupiter's powerful radiation belts, Saturn's are quite weak in comparison and I suspect that Titan's orbit is well outside of Saturn's radiation belts.
 
Yes the CGI is amazing - gorgeous. Let's give that to SpaceX. I'm still thinking Mars lava tubes would be a better bargain than digging everything at insane cost and risk and difficulty.
I have a science paper somewhere on my HD which notes that, while Earth largest lava tubes cannot go wider than 30 meters, because of strong gravity... Mars 0.38 and the Moon 0.16 Earth gravity allowed lava tubes to grow to mind blowing sizes : 300 m wide for Mars, 3 km for the Moon.

To me it is a game-changing godsend, for many reasons.

First, no need to carve underground bases : mother nature has already done the job a billion years ago, for free, and at stupendous scale.

Second reason : lava tubes and caves are everywhere: Moon, Mars, asteroids... once you master the art of polishing the tubes, that experience is useful across the entire solar system's large rocky bodies.

Plus they radically solve the dust, radiation and temperature issues: their own unique way.
Yes, sticking the early colonies in lava tubes is probably the best bet. Meters of regolith is your preferred radiation shield.

But I'm not so sure that they'd solve the dust problems unless people don't go onto the surface. And that's not exactly all that healthy psychologically for humans.



Can they easy to build with Earth, Lunar, asteroids resources ?
Absolutely! some big orbital mirrors to melt the asteroids into their constituent metals, then smelt into the required alloys...


how look with life span of cylinder decades, centuries ?
3 generations. At least for the colony inside. The physical structure itself will last far longer.

Generation 1 builds the habitat cylinder, they know how it all works.
Generation 2 resents having to do all the work to keep it working and tries to skip maintenance things.
Generation 3 doesn't even learn how it all works and destroys it through idiocy.

Witness any family business.


Can O'Niel cylinder and Stanford Torus can have stable ecology ? ( i mean Life support and supplied)
Sure, it'll take some work to figure everything out in terms of what all plants and animals you need.

Also, larger habitat cylinders will be easier to self-regulate.



what about corrosion ? externally (sun radiation, atomic oxygen) and Internal (water rust decaying structure)
That's part of the maintenance activities you need to do, but nickel-iron is better known as stainless steel.

==========

A significant issue with colonizing Mars isn't the dust, it's what's in the dust. Didn't they find out that Martian regolith is not red from oxidized iron, but from hexavalent chromium?
 
What do you mean by 'environmental utopias'? Are you referring to the Biosphere projects? I think it's a stretch to refer to them that way.


Is it an exaggeration to say that war games are useless when the war is happening and we are losing?

When someone from the Biosphere falls ill and an ambulance arrives and takes them to the hospital, the inhabitants know about it and that completely invalidates the experiment.

These things have already been tried many times since the fourteenth century with cloistered convents, stylites, hippie colonies, etc. We already know all the sociological, psychological and sexual problems that people in prison suffer... And what about the real problems of life in zero gravity, radiation, the fear of not being rescued?... well, we leave that to NASA, our thing is sustainability.
 
I think you're getting confused with Jupiter's powerful radiation belts, Saturn's are quite weak in comparison and I suspect that Titan's orbit is well outside of Saturn's radiation belts.


A hydrocarbon atmosphere subjected to radiation for billions of years? Something interesting is cooking up down there.
 
If the space station had been designed with rotation, we would already have essential medical data to know if long exposure to Coriolis affects the mind, sleep or other unknown factors in some way... But someone preferred to cut expenses, and the result is that a guy playing with a plastic bag and some coffee flakes discovered the secret of the accretion... Well, something is something, but zero gravity is a killer, and we have already investigated it a lot.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh8eb_ACLl8
 
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When someone from the Biosphere falls ill and an ambulance arrives and takes them to the hospital, the inhabitants know about it and that completely invalidates the experiment.
Well, on a submarine, the crew knows and carries on with the tasks at hand.

We do like to get updates on the status of the sick/injured, though.



These things have already been tried many times since the fourteenth century with cloistered convents, stylites, hippie colonies, etc. We already know all the sociological, psychological and sexual problems that people in prison suffer... And what about the real problems of life in zero gravity, radiation, the fear of not being rescued?... well, we leave that to NASA, our thing is sustainability.
It will require major psychological screening of the people who will be on the colonies.

Fortunately, the various submarine forces have developed screening techniques for what to specifically look for as desirable traits, and what to specifically not allow inside.

Of course, this means that all space colonists are going to have submariner personalities.
 
Didn't they find out that Martian regolith is not red from oxidized iron, but from hexavalent chromium?

That's news to me.

A hydrocarbon atmosphere subjected to radiation for billions of years?

The ionising radiation source for Titan's atmosphere is UV light from the Sun.

Something interesting is cooking up down there.

It's how ethane (And I suspect propane) are formed in Titan's methane rich atmosphere (Still mostly nitrogen though) and I wouldn't surprised at all if tholins are present on its' surface.
 
You might be able to create gravity on a ship, yet you will never be able to create gravity on another planet.

Our bodies are the result of gravity, our gravity. Dreaming that somehow it will just work is never going to happen.

Our best bet is looking for similar planets to jump too, those are all light years away.

Or otherwise look to genetically re-engineer humans so they can live on other planets yet then they will not be able to live on earth.

So, you send embryos to space for 100 yrs until they hit the intended planet they have been engineered for. Unless we can wormhole the whole trip, and that is another topic all together.

Obviously, the ship is run by AI and robots then after a few years you will have a "HAL Event" and game over.

Now the time frame for all of this is........................

Regards,
 
It might make more sense to engineer humans that could tolerate the environment on Mars than to settle down there long term with baseline humans. Not that I think the former is viable in the near future either.
 
In regards how low surface gravity would effect embryonic/foetal development in-utero and the growth of children on the Moon and Mars (Mars has 38% of Earth's gravity) if and when long-term colonies are established biologists could bring a small number of primates as test-subjects to see how low-gravity effects gestation and growth of their offspring.
 
I think you're getting confused with Jupiter's powerful radiation belts, Saturn's are quite weak in comparison and I suspect that Titan's orbit is well outside of Saturn's radiation belts.
No. Jupiter’s is considerably worse than Saturn’s, yes, but Titan still receives radiation from the planet. It is not inside Saturn’s main radiation belts though. And I’m thinking of transits through the Saturn system, not just being on the surface of Titan (which would be much less).
 
They did not, despite the best efforts of the European colonists.
Dear moderators, if TomS uses this forum as a platform to accuse my ancestors of genocide and I am not allowed to respond to the insult, you have an obligation to do something about it, do not allow discrimination, that time has passed.

There are many Europeans in the forum who have also been insulted, do not stand aside, take responsibility.
 
That's news to me.



A feature that will hold for at best one generation, unless people figure out how to breed for personality types.
While there's not presently enough data to deliberately breed for personality types in humans, there's quite a bit of anecdotal evidence of children acting like their grandparents or aunts/uncles. Not to mention example animal breeding.

Also, if those who were not psychologically suited to colony life were sent back to Earth, I figure that in 3-5 generations you'd have most of the people being born end up with the desired personality type.




Isolated colonies will either have to have fairly regimented and controlled societies *or* very well designed, tolerant, rugged and flexible mechanical-/ecosystems, *or* both.
You will have to have the second.

And yes, regimented/self-disciplined personalities are required to live in a place where any fuckup will kill you and everyone you love. Preferably the self-disciplined types, or else you end up in totalitarian hell.



Nope. Terrible idea. You'd be making a branch of humans that would never be able to integrate with the rest of us. You'd basically be making a competitor species because you didn't want to do the hard work of turning Mars awesome. And chances are they'd be stuck there, so they'd be annoyed at that.
How many 1950s books are there about what happens when you have people living on the Moon for life, trapped there?

Was that Heinlein's Moon is a Harsh Mistress as the leading story of that type?
 
Replace "sent back to Earth" with "fed into the recycler," and you'll have a lot of early space colonies. Shipping ne'er do wells to Earth would be a massive waste of resources, as well as sending a weak message to those who would destroy the place.
Point of order. Just because someone is not psychologically suited to be stuck in a tin can for life doesn't mean they're a ne'er-do-well.

If they prove destructive, then yes they are a ne'er-do-well and should be fed into the recycler, but psychological unsuitability does not assume destructive.



Indeed. You want people to be able to move about. A Mars populated by genetically engineered post-humans who can't live on Earth, and on a planet where Earthlings can't go, is a recipe for disaster.
I think the major problem is that people who grew up on Mars would have to be utter gym rats to have any chance of surviving going to Earth. (And this assumes that you can even carry a child to term in less than 1 gee, it may require pregnancies to be sent to either a 1-gee space hab or clear back to Earth, and then let the kids grow up for many years in higher gravity so that they will be able to survive Earth)
 
And they all died.


Neat. So whose Mars colony *would* you move to?
The Native Peoples who were here? Despite vigorous attempts at ethnic cleansing and actual genocide, they did not "all die." Some intermarried, although this was far rarer with English and other settlers from Britain than with the Spanish, Portuguese, and French, but their descendants and their culture persist.

Space colony? One that's not a company town.
 
You might be able to create gravity on a ship, yet you will never be able to create gravity on another planet.
It might seem silly, but this isn't the first study to look at centrifugal habitats on the surfaces (or under) the moon and Mars.



The drawback of this architecture is that it really can't work until a huge (expensive, massive) structure is completed. Moreover, it would have to be dynamically balanced to compensate for shifts of mass - large numbers of people gathering for some social event for example. Tuned damper masses could be used, as they are in the taller buildings today to compensate for wind-induced oscillations.

A simpler approach would be to find a nice round crater and build tracks leading in a spiral from a landing pad in the centre up to the rim where they then make a circle. Then you start loading individual carriages as you receive or build them and let them link up as a train perpetually circling the rim. Asymmetry and imbalance doesn't matter. Set the tracks in a trench and put sandbags over the top if you like.

(Of course I'm ignoring maintenance, wear, power, etc.)
 
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When the lava formed those tunnels millions of years ago no one explained to him that he should not do it again, this time the path would be made. The tunnels are the line of the least resistance for the advance of lava. That is the reason why it is forbidden to build on the banks of rivers.
I completely concur - humans should be in complete control as to *where* we build habitats, rather than depend on nature's whims.
 
I heard the colonization primary mission personnel are Proctologists, assinine as it sounds.
 
It might make more sense to engineer humans that could tolerate the environment on Mars than to settle down there long term with baseline humans. Not that I think the former is viable in the near future either.
If you means to engineer humans enough to tolerate the existing environment on Mars without artificial means, then such modernization is way beyond the possibility of modern (and even foreseeable) genetic engineering. And might be beyond the capabilities of Homo Sapiens DNA at all.

If you means to engineer humans to be reasonably better adapted to Martian conditions with artificial means - for example, higher radiation tolerance, more efficient oxygen assimilation, bones & blood vessels adapted to 0,4g - this is possible, yes.
 
I defy you to point me to one older than about 115. Every native who was here when the Europeans showed up died *centuries* ago.



OK, then set up by who or what? Charities? Religions? Criminal enterprises?
Nation state(s), or, hugely more unlikely, the UN.
 
In my opinion, proctologists are the lawyers who come after when all the dangerous work is already done.:)
Is the mission commander Col. Prober? I think they are currently scoping out the region for orbital insertion as well?
 
In my opinion, proctologists are the lawyers who come after when all the dangerous work is already done.:)
Now I take it that you're not a spring chicken anymore, but you should *REALLY* revisit your understanding of current job families.
 
Yeah, a Chinese Communist Party space colony sounds like a fantastic place to be.
Let's be frank; nowadays it would hardly be significantly different from US company space colony. In both cases it's likely the direct administration of the colony would be relegated to private corporation; just in Chinese case corporation would be more strictly controlled by government and top managers could actually be shot if they screw up really badly.
 
Yeah, a Chinese Communist Party space colony sounds like a fantastic place to be.

The United States has had more than fifty years to get on about the business of space colonies, but apart from some minor PR fluff in the late 70's, has done squat. Corporations like SpaceX and Blue Origin, despite being thousands of times smaller than the USA in terms of power and funds, are actually making an effort. What;s the difference? Corporations know they can make a profit in space, but nation states see no purpose in opening new frontiers. Unless a "space colony race" fires up, I don;t see *any* nation making much of an effort.

But money is *real.*
When I referred to nation states, I deliberately didn't identify any specific countries. But as a US Resident Alien (when I had my job interview at the then Boeing North American plant in Downey, California, where the Space Shuttle was conceived, my answer to the then standard question of "Where do you see yourself 15 years from now?" was "I want to be part of the team that engineers the first human mission to Mars", which was both the honest truth and I think helped me to get the job, together with a follow-up informal conversation with the advanced projects chief engineer conducted in the cockpit of the full scale Shuttle mockup in that facility at the time, but I digress), I always expected the USA as a nation to consistently take the lead in space exploration. The bottom line is, things only happen when there is a will with a wallet to back it up, and I don't see that in this country's science ignorant government at the moment. Musk to the rescue, I guess? Old man rant out.
 
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One thing for sure in any attempted colonisation of Mars is that those pesky perchlorates in the Martian regolith could be used as any easy source of oxygen. On another note the bottom of Valles Marineris could be useful as a colony site as the Martian atmosphere is the densest there.

During the Stalinist era they were forever yammering on about the New Soviet Man and whatnot

They were aiming for the New Soviet Man but instead got Homo Sovieticus.
 
Here's an interesting analysis of the economics of SpaceX, and calculations as to the financial costs involved. Also, a sobering view of Starship economics.
Space Review SpaceX Analysis

I find this entirely uninteresting.

"Are Falcon 9 launches and Starlink operations profitable?"

Falcon 9 is cheaper than the competition, but not by that much. They charge 50 or 60 million, the competition charges 10-20 million more. Experts estimated internal launch costs for SpaceX to be around 4-5 million per launch.
YES, Falcon 9 is OBVIOUSLY highly profitable.

Years ago SpaceX or Elon stated that Starlink is profitable. Starlink has a TAM of like 30 billion.
It's the moneyprinter to finance the Mars adventure.

"It is therefore reasonable to estimate that the profits generated by commercial launches do not cover the cost of Starlink launches. To do so, the profits generated by each commercial launch would have to be twice the launch costs."

It's not hard to have really high margins if you re-use your boosters 25 times while the rest of the industry is using disposable single use boosters. The upper stage is not reusable, but that's a single engine, the booster has 9 engines. The majority of the cost is the booster and that gets reused to absolute death and thus per-launch booster costs are barely anything.

"have to ask ourselves, will we really need such a launcher?" (Starship)

"The case of the Falcon Heavy, the most powerful rocket currently available, is particularly interesting. Launched for the first time in 2019, this rocket has only been used 11 times (mainly for the Department of Defense) as show in Table 5. Curiously, SpaceX does not use it to launch its Starlinks."

Falcon Heavy was a victim of Falcon 9 improvements. When SpaceX started development on the heavy, Falcon 9 had only half of the payload capacity it eventually would have. SpaceX relentlessly optimized Falcon 9 and increased the payload capacity, making heavy relatively obsolete.
Development seemed sensible at the time since there were many lucrative contracts for a rocket above Falcon 9, and development seemed straightforward with a lot of reuse. This arguably hasn't paid off as well as planned.

Using falcon heavy for starlink launches is entirely unfeasible. The starlink stack of 20-ish satellites almost fills the payload fairing, and the payload fairing for the falcon heavy is not that much bigger as the one for falcon 9. Falcon heavy is used to lob satellites into high geostationary orbits or probes to other planets, to utilize it fully to lob satellites into LEO it would need a new, gigantic payload fairing. There would not be any efficiency gain using it over a normal Falcon 9.

The advantage of starship is also not the size. It is FULL reusability, including the 2nd stage. Most of the (already low) falcon 9 and heavy launch costs is the 2nd stage which is not reusable.
Starship aims to reduce launch cost to fuel cost which are remarkably low (2-300k$)

Arguments about a lack of demand are also null and void. It would be cheaper to underutilize a starship to launch a single small satellite, than to launch a falcon 9 and expend a 2nd stage.
SpaceX is ultimately creating their own demand, with Starlink they are their own largest customer.

The article pretends there wouldn't be enough satellites to fill a starship, conveniently ignoring the fact that SpaceX supposedly mass produced 8000 satellites, launched them, and pushed the cost down to 1.2 million while regular satellites cost 20-40x as much and then pretends that a malfunction of starship would lead to a loss of these satellites which would be catastrophic.

An absolutely absurd argument. These launches are insured and Falcon 9 is the rocket with the best reliability track record, it's not like SpaceX will have great issues insuring the launch of satellites for their customers. With such cheap launch costs the market will shift to cheaper and more satellites eventually once someone manages to push the price down by also offering reusable launch capability - something no other company has managed for quite some years to copy, and nobody outside the chinese and one small startup is even seriously persuing.
Meanwhile spaceX is testflying their THIRD reusable orbital class rocket.

People think SpaceX rocked the launch market by grabbing 90% of it with a partially reusable rocket. The real big change will be full reusability pushing prices even harder.

Another unintelligent hitpiece aimed at an overused target. Disappointing how lenient society as a whole is towards such behaviour.
 
It would only be ironic if hypocrisy wasn't baked into communism and communists.

From a certain point of view, commies might make the perfect space colonists. During the Stalinist era they were forever yammering on about the New Soviet Man and whatnot; the idea seemed to be to completely re-write human nature to accept the depredations of socialism. Well, space colonization is going to require some new thinking and new ways of being; the best way would be to let people work out how to adjust to the environment and how to adjust the environment to them; the Soviet approach, especially with futuristic sci-fi genetic tech, would be to re-write human nature to accept whatever fresh hell space colonies come up with. For example, it may well be, especially early on, that colonies will need to be run with an iron fist like a ship at sea, with the captain being the absolute dictator; Americans would have a problem with that, while New Soviet Man would be programmed to do whatever Dear Leader tells him to. If that means marching out the airlock without a suit, why, there's the door.
Hello Scott,

I unsurprisingly completely agree that communism, like fascism, is a truly wicked, wretched, abhorrent ideology. To bring out the best of humanity, people need to be free to create and express themselves, and see some kind of (dis?)proportional reward for what they contribute to society. Space colonization needs to be at least initially based on complete consent and dedication to a joint project with common goals and objectives, which in religious terms might be compared to a Kibbutz situation, or in more secular terms, a dare I say it socialist arrangement. Now bear in mind that any single one (among hopefully many!) spacefaring endeavour might be ideologically all over the place, and people should of course be free to leave and vote with their feet (or thrusters, as it were). Sociological self sorting is bandied about these days like it's a bad thing, but I actually consider it a healthy development to create more peaceful and productive communities, and I state that as a German expat living in Southern Orange County, California. I have no ambitions to ever leave this planet (in fact, as an adolescent focused on becoming an aerospace engineer, I repeatedly was asked during family gatherings "so you want to fly to the Moon?", to which my standard reply became to be "No - after all, the man who invented the electric chair never tried it out either", which tended to short circuit (no pun intended :)) any follow on conversation). Anyway, let's get into space already, the more and varied, the merrier! I'll just be content sipping drinks on the SoCal coastline...
 
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I have no ambitions to ever leave this planet (in fact, as an adolescent focused on becoming an aerospace engineer, I repeatedly was asked during family gatherings "so you want to fly to the Moon?", to which my standard reply became to be "No - after all, the man who invented the electric chair never tried it out either", which tended to short circuit (no pun intended :)) any follow on conversation).
Got a good laugh reading this.
 
I completely concur - humans should be in complete control as to *where* we build habitats, rather than depend on nature's whims.
Interesting point!

Traditionally, architecture and urban foundation has not been simplistically subservient to nature but rather sought the most propitious locus (Vitruvius, blah blah and so on). The short version: best location that gives the most advantages.

However, in non-earthly environments, is a habitat more like a house (integrated with locale) or a vehicle (independent of locale and self-contained)?

FYI, in architectural education, Vitruvius is held up as the Moses of architecture.

 
Further to that, Le Corbusier, in Vers Une Architecture (usually inaccurately translated into English as Towards New Architecture) argued that habitats should refer to the archetype of the vehicle, in the case he described, the ocean liner. His Unité d'habitation was the fulfilment on earth of this ideal. With proper internet access, you should have no reason to step outside into the almost airless, toxic environment.


(By the way, I'm not endorsing ideas that I present here, just describing how other people have proposed them. Personally, I'd like a nice cottage in the Scottish highlands with several cats, so there.)
 
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