Colonization of Mars

[Scott Kenny]

Oh you mean ONLY "good/disciplined/wise people" would be allowed to go and live there ?

Sadly, yes.

I figure it'll only take 2-3 total colony wipes before the psychological suitability screening of volunteer colonists is mandatory, coupled with medevacing those developing psychological unsuitability.

Because I am not joking about how a lazy/undisciplined bastard will get everyone killed. Nor am I joking about actively malevolent types getting fed through the garbage disposal to become something useful: fertilizer.

NASA had an experiment go sideways with a team of ... 6? that were simulating a Mars mission, they essentially developed cabin fever from being stuck in too tight quarters with too small a group, damn near killed each other. Because they went looking for people with the right specialties and then sent them to the top of a Hawaiian volcano, no mention of psychological screening.

For that matter, one of the Antarctic missions had a stabbing, because the stabbed kept spoiling the endings of books that the stabber was reading.

Or maybe only sufficiently obedient, compliant people. With 24/7 surveillance and a sufficiently loyal security service, obedience could be assured. A company town capital punishment.

That is the pessimal version of off-planet colonies, yes.

 

[galgot]

Basically because Antarctic Treaty. And the pre-existing claims on the continent parts, so even if the Treaty would expire and not be prolonged (which is possible) there still would be no "free land". Only nationally-claimed territories, where nations could relatively easily exercise their control.

On Mars, on the other hand, national control of Earth would be... extremely handicapped. The travel time make direct control unreasonably costly. The communication lag made data-based control inefficient. So Martian colonies situation would be determined mainly by the local, Martian politics - not by Earth.

Ok then, but what makes you think Martian politics would make you "more free" than Earth politics ? Humans there would suddenly become super wise Martians because it's a "free land" ?

 

[BlueAbyssal]

You were referring to the colonization of the Americas earlier, true, was not populated by billions, and there was vast empty places, but there was still some people there too. That's what I was referring too.

I wasn't exclusively referring to the colonization of the Americas, though. Hence why I also mentioned the Phoenicians.

I suspect based on some of your comments that you like to have the last word... We both are starting to know each other.
As forcing people to go there, well yes unlikely, just as unlikely people would move there willingly to start an happy family, but you started making comparisons with historical colonizations, and it happened. If one (or severals) absolutely want some people to settle in some place they don't want to, to make a "new society" as he likes, and if he finds the means, its a possibility.

You'd be surprised. I often leave others with the last word.

It is, but the vast majority of colonies in history were settled for other reasons, so it doesn't come off as reasonable to assume it's highly likely, unless one is trying to discredit the idea. As for 'move there willingly to start a happy family,' I think many people will do just that.

As for profitability, and thus ultimately possible long term human settlement there, thanks for your comprehensive answer, but there are still quite a lot of unknowns about that. Just thinking about the transport for one...

There are always going to be unknowns unless and until people go. It's like asking a girl out - she might say yes, she might say no, but she won't say either until you *do* something instead of endless planning.

At least it's a place where you can breathe. A miserable place to live, but I don't see mars as better, sorry.

You'll also die in short order throughout much of the year without advanced technology. It's fine that you don't see Mars as better. All that really means is you won't go, and you won't have much impact on what happens on Mars, if anything.

Funny, what makes you think that on Mars you'd not have to deal with a government (and what's the problem with having a government anyway) ? I mean, as I mentioned earlier, you'd still have to deal with some kind of authority, thus some kind of governance, ie a government in effect. be it a Martian coorporation or something related to some authority from Earth.

I haven't said anything is wrong with having a government. My contention is the same as always: going to Mars gives you the distance where it's feasible to create new governments, with different laws, customs, traditions, etc. As for dealing with entities on Earth, sure.

Sure there would be, I mean, I would go for a week , as for STAYING there, that's another question. But anyway, all this is completely hypothetical ...

Everything is hypothetical until it isn't. SpaceX isn't developing Starship purely for bragging rights.

Was referring to this comment .

You can take him literally, but one could also simply assume 'cops' = existing authorities.

Indeed if there ever was a settlement there, the rules for the survival of the colony would be quite strict. It implies laws and order, thus some kind of governance, thus (surprise surprise) what is in effect a government.

If you assume I'm against government, I suggest a closer reading of my comments.

Well Ok then, problem solved...

Radiation appears to be one of those things that is insoluble, but it's really not, and it's easier to deal with on a planet than it would be in space. The worst-case scenario for a Martian settlement is radiation from directly overhead, and a simple way to deal with it is to pile mass atop your habitat - which I will note doesn't prevent designers from having windows in the walls, as radiation protection to both sides benefits from a much greater depth of atmosphere than above - and that mass can be water, Martian regolith, whatever. You need a sufficient thickness of it, and that is an engineering problem that can be calculated, not a science experiment where we know little.

Ok then, but what makes you think Martian politics would make you "more free" than Earth politics ? Humans there would suddenly become super wise Martians ?

This plays into what I said about freedom earlier. It isn't about them being wiser, it's about having opportunities no longer available on Earth.

I'm giving you the last word; I won't respond to you again in this topic. I'll leave you with this: can you imagine, in good faith, what would attract someone to Mars? despite the distance, despite the challenges, despite the environment? I can easily imagine why people wouldn't want to go. Can you imagine why someone would, without thinking them ridiculous, stupid, or otherwise buffoonish?

 

[galgot]

...Can you imagine why someone would, without thinking them ridiculous, stupid, or otherwise buffoonish?

Of course I can But I also see why some can make big profit from the dreams and dissatisfactions with life on Earth of others, knowing the prospect of it actually happening is very very far, away from their life time or even their grand children's life time.

 

[SUPER=BUG]

I don't think that colonizing Mars will get an ideal paradise, ideals are beautiful, but the world does not run on ideals, but interests, especially when it comes to large colonies, there are more interests involved, and the struggle will be more intense.

 

[Scott Kenny]

@martinbayer can correct me, but there’s some unintentional humor here in that you basically wrote ‘love space.’ The word you’re looking for is Lebensraum.

Ah, oops! Thank you, fixed.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Ok then, but what makes you think Martian politics would make you "more free" than Earth politics ? Humans there would suddenly become super wise Martians because it's a "free land" ?

No, because they'd be dead if they weren't wise and self-disciplined.

And so you're going to have to select for broadly the same personality traits as submariners, just to allow the colonies to last more than a few months-to-years.

 

[BlueAbyssal]

I don't think that colonizing Mars will get an ideal paradise, ideals are beautiful, but the world does not run on ideals, but interests, especially when it comes to large colonies, there are more interests involved, and the struggle will be more intense.

Indeed not. The world we live in today was one built over centuries, and much of what we have now was barely imaginable even a century ago. It won't be ideal, because people are people, and it won't be a paradise, because paradises are made as much as found, but neither need be the case at the start.

 

[Justo Miranda]

The terraforming of Mars is a thousand times more expensive than the habitability of Antarctica, Antarctica a hundred times more expensive than the transformation of deserts. Building floating cities is the cheapest solution, a challenge for architects and engineers, and the first step to an orbital colony. The occupation of territories is an AGRICULTURAL mentality, nuclear energy and photosynthesis will free us from the roots one day.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePeAUExUIx8

 

[Scott Kenny]

The terraforming of Mars is a thousand times more expensive than the habitability of Antarctica, Antarctica a hundred times more expensive than the transformation of deserts. Building floating cities is the cheapest solution, a challenge for architects and engineers, and the first step to an orbital colony. The occupation of territories is an AGRICULTURAL mentality, nuclear energy and photosynthesis will free us from the roots one day.

It's still psychologically unhealthy for humans to be stuck in a tin can for long periods.

IIRC, the longest that has been done is 6 months. The USN prefers to keep it to 3-6 weeks for submariners.

Your orbital colonies will need very large green spaces for the crew to decompress in.

 

[Justo Miranda]

It's still psychologically unhealthy for humans to be stuck in a tin can for long periods.

IIRC, the longest that has been done is 6 months. The USN prefers to keep it to 3-6 weeks for submariners.

Your orbital colonies will need very large green spaces for the crew to decompress in.

There are people living in New York who do not know that the city is an island, there are people who live in small boats all their lives, it all depends on the way of life that each one chooses, it is almost always possible to go elsewhere but there are those who remain plowing the land of their great-great-grandparents and there are those who embark on an aircraft carrier, and there are also retirees who live on a luxury cruise ship and never go ashore.

 

[Seragina]

Unless we solve our social, metal and psychology it doesn't matter where we go, the problems remains and follow us to the end of the universe. We are the prime problem and only then come the technological problems.

That said we haven't developed a real life support system yet. What we have are things that need replacing and can't be recycled without having factories. The best we have are water recycling, the latest japanese one shipped to the ISS a few months ago.
If we develope theses technologies we can solve global warming problems, too. Although, we won't really get fixed it for at least a thousand year of continuous efforts. Unless we stop 90% of our industrial activities for at least 200 years.

 

[NMaude]

In regards to colonising Mars the National Geographic channel a 2016-2018 TV series about this called Mars and it was very good.

Mars is a hard science-fiction television series produced by National Geographic that premiered on November 14, 2016, on its channel and FX.[1][2] Prior to its official airdate, it was launched in a streaming format on November 1, 2016.[3] It blends elements of real interviews with a fictional story of a group of astronauts as they land on the planet Mars.[citation needed]

The series is based on the Stephen Petranek book How We'll Live on Mars (2015). The fictional narrative initially alternates between the years 2016 and 2033, using present-day non-fiction interviews to explain events unfolding in the story. Over the series, the fictional narrative progresses through to 2042 as the colony develops. The series was filmed in Budapest and Morocco.[4]

"Before MARS" is the dramatic backstory of Hana & Joon Seung, principal characters in the upcoming series "MARS" on the National Geographic Channel.

#NationalGeographic #Space #Marshttps://www.youtube.com/hashtag/mars

About MARS:From executive producers Brian Grazer & Ron Howard, MARS is an epic series following a thrilling quest - in 2032 - to colonize Mars. In a unique blend of scripted drama and feature-film caliber visual effects, intercut with documentary sequences, the series presents what the greatest minds in space exploration are doing to make traveling to Mars a reality, and shows us the world they seek.​

I recommend watching the series if it's available.

 

[publiusr]

I suppose this all hinges on how “easy” spaceflight ever becomes.

Even with Starship a success—if a Mars colonist never paid child support (or whatever)…he could rest assured no one would look for him.

If, the next day, somebody actually had a Star Trek shuttlecraft—he’d have a summons on his door within the hour.

 

[Seragina]

The main problem is radiation. The longer the flight the more radiation ofc.
Nasa has a set limit for lifetime radiation an astronaut can accumulate before he's no longer eligible. This limit is for the probability of getting cancer once. It's not a conservative threshold imho.
I dunno about SpaceX radiation protection level but research sofar on spacecrafts bound for Mars required NASA to push the limit up by 1-2x (It's been a while so I can't remember the numbers). This means anybody heading for Mars is his first and last space flight of his life.

 

[NMaude]

The main problem is radiation. The longer the flight the more radiation ofc.

If NASA can get nuclear-thermal rockets operational that should reduce the flight time from Earth to Mars to about 30 days.

 

[BlueAbyssal]

The main problem is radiation. The longer the flight the more radiation ofc.
Nasa has a set limit for lifetime radiation an astronaut can accumulate before he's no longer eligible. This limit is for the probability of getting cancer once. It's not a conservative threshold imho.
I dunno about SpaceX radiation protection level but research sofar on spacecrafts bound for Mars required NASA to push the limit up by 1-2x (It's been a while so I can't remember the numbers). This means anybody heading for Mars is his first and last space flight of his life.

My recollection is that it’s a very conservative limit. NASA doesn’t tend towards the radical, and you don’t need fast transits to minimize radiation exposure. It helps, but it isn’t necessary. Mass around a ship’s habitat (or at least a ‘storm cellar’) will do just fine, though over the long term we may likely use cyclers.

So far as NTRs go, they’re heavy and not that much more capable than chemical propulsion until you start getting pretty exotic. With refueling chemical rockets can do quite well, basically the same performance as an NTR without the extra mass and shielding.

 

[Scott Kenny]

There are people living in New York who do not know that the city is an island, there are people who live in small boats all their lives, it all depends on the way of life that each one chooses, it is almost always possible to go elsewhere but there are those who remain plowing the land of their great-great-grandparents and there are those who embark on an aircraft carrier, and there are also retirees who live on a luxury cruise ship and never go ashore.

The New Yorkers still get out of their house every day and go to work. The sailors see the sky.

There's something primal about not seeing the sky, and it really messes you up!

 

[martinbayer]

I’d note that the USA taking the lead doesn’t intrinsically mean the *government* being the entity doing it; the government is not the country, and the country is not the government. The country is the people, and the government is a servant and only one of its representatives to the rest of the world.

Settling new regions, despite what the French and Spanish may have thought as they explored the New World, isn’t all about extraction to send valuables back home. Whether something can be profitably extracted and shipped back to Earth will depend heavily on transport costs. Platinum, gold, palladium, rhodium, even metals like samarium and gallium can be shipped to Earth, and Mars is rich in deuterium, assuming we have D-D or D3He fusion reactors by the time Mars can electrolyze water and extract the deuterium. It may also be possible to license ideas - a Martian settlement will have to focus heavily on science and engineering to survive, let alone thrive, in a hostile environment. They’ll need advanced robotics and automation; biotechnology for growing sufficient food; artificial intelligence to support the paucity of minds available to tackle problems, and plenty more besides. Yes, Earth will have many more researchers, but not necessarily better or more motivated ones. It’s also possible to have Martian luxury goods - probably not a substantial profit center, but nice to have nonetheless, given their likely low mass. And if humanity ever moves into the asteroid belt, Mars is better positioned energetically to support anyone going than Earth is. We need no silver bullets (and extraction is not a great reason to settle anywhere), just moxie and a bit of imagination.

I *completely* concur, but that raises the (for some folks/lawyers probably endlessly fascinating) question of interplanetary patents.

 

[martinbayer]

@martinbayer can correct me, but there’s some unintentional humor here in that you basically wrote ‘love space.’ The word you’re looking for is Lebensraum.

For all practical intents and purposes, outer space is essentially unlimited to the best of our current collective understanding.

 

[Dilandu]

So far as NTRs go, they’re heavy and not that much more capable than chemical propulsion until you start getting pretty exotic. With refueling chemical rockets can do quite well, basically the same performance as an NTR without the extra mass and shielding.

The main advantage of NTR is that they could - potentially - combine the rocket & reactor, thus giving both thrust/impulse and electric power. You could use NTR as (relatively) high-thrust rocket when you need to make a maneuver fast, and you could use it as power source for ion engines when you need to accelerate slowly.

 

[Scott Kenny]

I *completely* concur, but that raises the (for some folks/lawyers probably endlessly fascinating) question of interplanetary patents.

Well, since the OST prevents countries from claiming celestial objects we don't have that chunk of law in play, but patents get filed in the US and EU and Japan all the time. Even when the invention itself was developed in South Korea.

So I'd expect that the Colony holding company will have some IP lawyers back on earth to file.

 

[martinbayer]

Well, since the OST prevents countries from claiming celestial objects we don't have that chunk of law in play, but patents get filed in the US and EU and Japan all the time. Even when the invention itself was developed in South Korea.

So I'd expect that the Colony holding company will have some IP lawyers back on earth to file.

Sounds perfectly legit to me, but I'd be utterly thrilled to witness any interplanetary legal battles royale during my remaining years on this here third rock from the sun.

 

[Dilandu]

For a lot of people, especially city dwellers, the sky is not much of a feature. I've spent time among skyscrapers and lived out on the plains and there is *no* comparison. "The Sky" is a hell of a thin if you live in the Utah desert; it's merely the blue, gray, black or brown strip overhead if you're down among the tenements. Where I live now the night sky is an incredibly dull featureless field of ignorable black compared to what it was out west.

Point being: the sky could be readily replaced in a moderately sized habitat.

Or just by having recreational areas under sufficiently thick transparent domes. There are a lot of transparent materials, which could provide efficient radiation protection.

Bottom line, if the habitat would be rationally designed - with enough of free space between walls, bright colors, a lot of plants & some running water - it would be perfectly sufficient to live inside. Just look at the experience of building the large malls; they are essentially semi-enclosed areas, designed in such way that humans could spend inside as much time as possible.

 

[Dilandu]

Dunno about over yonder your way, but sadly in this part of the world the "shopping mall" is a few decades past it's glory days. Still, as a child of the 70's and 80's, I remember well how awesome those facilities were in their prime. And, yes, at the time it seems that one could easily live perfectly well in such an establishment. You could see the sky though the many skylights... but on a lunar or Martian mallhab, the skylights could be easily backed not with the actual sky, but simple glowing panels.

Well, there are still a big hit there, in Russia. Of course, pandemic & then sanctions took a heavy toll on them, but still there are a lot, and new ones are being build. Maybe just our cultural pre-disposition toward everything grandeur, bright, orderly and impressive)

And I fully agree, that - especially with modern area design & technology - its perfectly possible to design the enclosed habitat, that would not be felt as claustraphobic. Of course, space would be required - not tunnels, but halls & enclosed walleys. But its doable.

 

[Seragina]

My recollection is that it’s a very conservative limit. NASA doesn’t tend towards the radical, and you don’t need fast transits to minimize radiation exposure. It helps, but it isn’t necessary. Mass around a ship’s habitat (or at least a ‘storm cellar’) will do just fine, though over the long term we may likely use cyclers.

So far as NTRs go, they’re heavy and not that much more capable than chemical propulsion until you start getting pretty exotic. With refueling chemical rockets can do quite well, basically the same performance as an NTR without the extra mass and shielding.

Honestly, I don't want to reveal it all and burst people's bubble because let's be honest we do need brave and fool hardy souls to forge our way to the stars. It's a road littered with the sacrifices and blood of dead heroes.

That said here's my cheat sheet table from a decade ago with some space flight calculations at certain velocity. Higher velocity increases radiation doses especially atomic (alpha, beta); at relativistic speeds it's gamma,


Looks like the radiation value for solar system space is hidden somewhere. Also note the sun tends to have burst and also consider active years etc.

The research projected space craft will feature at most a 20 cm aluminum equivalent worth of shielding. Look up National Institute of Standards (NIST) XCOM referrence table for 20 MeV (γ, x-ray). At 1 Sv/h you need 265.6 cm aluminum equivalent armor for natural rates. Run the numbers and see for yourself.

 

[Seragina]

And I fully agree, that - especially with modern area design & technology - its perfectly possible to design the enclosed habitat, that would not be felt as claustraphobic. Of course, space would be required - not tunnels, but halls & enclosed walleys. But its doable.

Let me give you some numbers and don't aks for details (it's complicated and I can't simply pull them all up and explain al the details)
So this is just some "good" rule of thumbs of mine. These are my minimum numbers for generation ship / colony:
286.37 - 457.2 m^3 per person
114.55 - 182.88 m^2 per person

 

[Scott Kenny]

Sounds perfectly legit to me, but I'd be utterly thrilled to witness any interplanetary legal battles royale during my remaining years on this here third rock from the sun.

So would I!

For a lot of people, especially city dwellers, the sky is not much of a feature. I've spent time among skyscrapers and lived out on the plains and there is *no* comparison. "The Sky" is a hell of a thin if you live in the Utah desert; it's merely the blue, gray, black or brown strip overhead if you're down among the tenements. Where I live now the night sky is an incredibly dull featureless field of ignorable black compared to what it was out west.

Point being: the sky could be readily replaced in a moderately sized habitat.

It's about not being stuck inside a small volume.

Even aircraft carriers prefer to hit ports every 3 weeks or so, and that's not just to load up on fresh produce!

The research projected space craft will feature at most a 20 cm aluminum equivalent worth of shielding. Look up National Institute of Standards (NIST) XCOM referrence table for 20 MeV (γ, x-ray). At 1 Sv/h you need 265.6 cm aluminum equivalent armor for natural rates. Run the numbers and see for yourself.

That's because they're being F*ing Stupid and not using a good array of attenuators. You're going to need lots of water, that will address neutrons and most charged particles. Various polymers have better attenuation than plain aluminum, use them to line the water tank. And the entire water tank gets wrapped around the outside of the spacecraft. (Well, is on the inside of the hull, but I think you get the idea)

 

[Dilandu]

1) A lot of them were financially/legally dubious tax dodges and the like from the beginning
2) The "social gathering" aspect has been slaughtered by the internet
3) Shopping has been hacked apart by the likes of WalMart... and the internet
4) A lot of them have been invaded by "youths" and "teens" who rampage and make the experience miserable

Well, I can't say for everyrhing, but:

1) Generally not a big problem in Russia, since their owners usually got connections. As long as their operations are merely dubious and not outright criminal, they are usuall left in peace (to clarify: do not consider it to be a good thing, merely that things works that way here);
2) Yeah, this problem exist, but peoples of all generations still loves to hang around with friend - and malls present the best place for quick meetings;
3) Yep, same problem. But here its not as hard, because peoples generally are more suspicious about online sales and rarely buy expensive things online;
4) Well, fortunately THIS problem is nonexistent here. Russian laws are significantly more strict about hooliganism in public places, so vandals and petty thieves would not like the experince mall guard would eagerly provide to them. And neither legal system nor public opinion would NOT consider "being roughly handled by policemen" as something outrageous for thief or hooligan.

On Luna and Mars, low gravity should make building big and spacious kinda straightforward. Structures as vast and airy as the largest shopping malls should be doable. Wide expanses of unsupported ceilings should be easy; in them can be fake "skylights" backed with essentially great big TV screens that show the *actual* sky outside.

True, completely true. The lower the gravity - the cheaper the space, since mass of constructions reduces exponentially.

 

[Seragina]

That's because they're being F*ing Stupid and not using a good array of attenuators. You're going to need lots of water, that will address neutrons and most charged particles. Various polymers have better attenuation than plain aluminum, use them to line the water tank. And the entire water tank gets wrapped around the outside of the spacecraft. (Well, is on the inside of the hull, but I think you get the idea)

You do realize that I did them all already right?

Radiation protection is more complicated than that. Any and all calculations will come short due to scattering called buildup.
That's why real world measurement must be made for everything and verify.
Just run your numbers of armoring and their associated weights & run our velocity adjusted radiation rates; run your rocket equations etc.
Might as well run the cost numbers.
Then come back and throw your arguments at those egg heads.

In a perfect universe I refuse to set foot on any ship with less useable habitable volume than 63 million cubic meters.

 

[Justo Miranda]

The New Yorkers still get out of their house every day and go to work. The sailors see the sky.

There's something primal about not seeing the sky, and it really messes you up!

The Caves of Steel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Scott Kenny]

In a perfect universe I refuse to set foot on any ship with less useable habitable volume than 63 million cubic meters.

I'm not going to lie, that's probably the size ship it'll take to haul actual colonists to Mars, as opposed to the explorers looking for the best place to put a colony. A Borg Cube 400m on a side.

 

[Justo Miranda]

For whom would freedom exist on Mars, and why? In a sealed, very finite environment, there is no usable wilderness (or native lands to plunder), so leaving is out. Also, it's likely the level of regulation would be very high. At best, think an apartment complex. There will be a lot of very complex and expensive infrastructure to maintain, so taxes or something functionally identical will need to be paid. In a closed environment contaminants will be need to be strictly controlled (when my brother-in-law was active duty on USN submarines, aerosol shaving cream and deodorants were not allowed. It's the navy, so the individual sailors weren't going to paint anything except with navy-issue paint, with minimal VOCs); this could even affect permitted cooking methods.

Freedom is not a place, but the independence of those who can live on their own resources without asking anything of anyone.

Freedom in space or on another planet requires enormous resources from the mother planet for many years. Something was always missing that had not occurred to the designers of the diaspora.

Remember the survival expert's joke that he forgot the can opener?

 

[Archibald]

The main advantage of NTR is that they could - potentially - combine the rocket & reactor, thus giving both thrust/impulse and electric power. You could use NTR as (relatively) high-thrust rocket when you need to make a maneuver fast, and you could use it as power source for ion engines when you need to accelerate slowly.

Could do the same with a mix of Pulsed NTR and Fission Fragment Rocket.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fission-fragment_rocket

Pulsed nuclear thermal rocket - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

These two take a solid-core NTR basic elements and reshuffle them for much, much higher performance.
-nuclear reactor
-fission fragments
-prompt neutrons
-hydrogen fuel to be heated

1-Classic NTR uses the fission fragments to heat the hydrogen fuel. And runs straight into the 2nd law of thermodynamics (Fourrier) hence performance sucks despite having a nuclear reactor at one end, and hydrogen fuel at the other end: the transmission system sucks.

2-PNTR has a TRIGA-like pulsed, GW reactor at one end, and hydrogen fuel at the other. But it swaps the transmission system from fission fragments to prompt neutrons from the TRIGA pulse; which heat the hydrogen at the atomic level... where the 2nd law of thermodynamics no longer applies.
End result : super-high specific impulse, still high thrust.

3-And finally, FFR : since the fission fragments are now unemployed (no more hydrogen heating job for them) how about just shooting them out of a magnetic nozzle ? once again, sky-high specific impulse.

A combination of PNTR and FFR (let's call it PUFF : PUlsed & Fission Fragment) would be a superlative drive: only fusion and antimatter would beat it. Nuclear fission has a theoretical 20 million time more energy than chemial rockets : this would truly unleash this potential.

 

[BlueAbyssal]

Honestly, I don't want to reveal it all and burst people's bubble because let's be honest we do need brave and fool hardy souls to forge our way to the stars. It's a road littered with the sacrifices and blood of dead heroes.

That said here's my cheat sheet table from a decade ago with some space flight calculations at certain velocity. Higher velocity increases radiation doses especially atomic (alpha, beta); at relativistic speeds it's gamma,

View attachment 773155
Looks like the radiation value for solar system space is hidden somewhere. Also note the sun tends to have burst and also consider active years etc.

The research projected space craft will feature at most a 20 cm aluminum equivalent worth of shielding. Look up National Institute of Standards (NIST) XCOM referrence table for 20 MeV (γ, x-ray). At 1 Sv/h you need 265.6 cm aluminum equivalent armor for natural rates. Run the numbers and see for yourself.

You’re not bursting my bubble or telling me anything surprising; that’s why I specifically mentioned shielding. Yes, we’ll need a lot of it. That’s fine. Ideally we’ll end up with spacecraft that are both fast and have good radiation shielding, but such spaceships are unlikely to be built unless the economic justification is there, and that’s hard to engender before the fact.

I *completely* concur, but that raises the (for some folks/lawyers probably endlessly fascinating) question of interplanetary patents.

I’m no lawyer, let alone patent lawyer, but a thought comes to mind: having a branch of a Martian company that operates on Earth for licensing and enforcement (read: lawsuits and whatever other legal measures are available) purposes.

For all practical intents and purposes, outer space is essentially unlimited to the best of our current collective understanding.

I meant the translation - I’ve been studying German for a while, but some things trip me up or I’m slightly off if translating from German to English.

The main advantage of NTR is that they could - potentially - combine the rocket & reactor, thus giving both thrust/impulse and electric power. You could use NTR as (relatively) high-thrust rocket when you need to make a maneuver fast, and you could use it as power source for ion engines when you need to accelerate slowly.

Yes, a bimodal NTR. Though I’d just use NEP for much higher specific impulse, unless you really need the thrust.

 

[Null]

lighter and better material than lead to absorb radiation is needed.

Радиоактивные поверхности стали безопаснее — благодаря одному компоненту

Новое стекло защищает от радиации лучше бетона, но в нём нет свинца. Учёные нашли безопасную замену и раскрыли, где материал применят уже скоро.

www.pravda.ru

Ученые создали недорогой и удобный композит для защиты от радиации

Материал для защиты от рентгеновских лучей и гамма-излучения предложили исследователи УрФУ в составе международного коллектива. По их словам, новый полимерный... РИА Новости, 20.06.2023

ria.ru

Создан новый материал для защиты от радиации

Китайские ученые разработали новый материал для защиты от радиации, который эффективнее и безопаснее свинца. Он блокирует нейтронное и гамма-излучение и может применяться в ядерной медицине и...

news.rambler.ru

 

[BlueAbyssal]

Look into cladosporium sphaerospermum, and boron-10 is also pretty good. I’d bet future spacecraft use a mix.

 

[Nicolas10]

I would go. Sure, I’d miss the outdoors, but the recompense in intelligent, interesting colleagues, work, and shared challenges would be valuable too.

Why would governments waste their time sending people to Mars? What’s in it for them? If one wants a prison camp off Earth, you may as well build it either in space or on the Moon.

They would do both. Think Australia.

 

[BlueAbyssal]

The British only started sending convicts to Australia because a) they were running out of room in prisons back in England, and b) they could no longer send them to the American colonies. As no government seems willing to fund a Martian settlement, and the precedents set don’t apply here anyway (and are not particularly common in historical colonization), I think anticipating prison colonies on Mars means one is taking fiction too seriously.

 

[Seragina]

Look into cladosporium sphaerospermum, and boron-10 is also pretty good. I’d bet future spacecraft use a mix.

This looks promising.
But is it me or don't they even say how to maintain the fungi? What's their support tail or footprint. It's kind important to know for comparison.
That said the fungi would still need protection from the elements and space (like from dehydration, freezing etc), practially adding an extra shell to the hull or double/triple hull. So I'm not so sure about the weight saving yet.