Sukhoi Su-57 flight testing and development

[Sferrin]

Canted 2D nozzles were a feature of the as-yet-unseen Rockwell ATF. They were canted at 45 degrees to avoid the square side giving a 90 degree return to the side and align to the canted fuselage. This was due to similar circumstances to the Su-57 - 2D nozzles replacing circular nozzles of the earlier design in an exposed location.

I'd never seen that one before. Nice find!

 

[EmoBirb]

I thought the S-70 was shot down by a Su-35, after the Su-57 lost control of the drone?

First time hearing anything about Su-35 in relation to this incident. Everything so far, basically the entire consensus is that a Su-57 operated with an S-70 UCAV behind the frontline in hostile territory (I think it went down a couple kilometers into UA held territory). The S-70 turned unresponsive and subsequently the Su-57 launched a short range missile against it's unmanned wingman.

Su-35 also would make literally zero sense because as far as we know the Su-35 doesn't have the ability to effectively fly together with the S-70. While the Su-57, namely T-50-3 conducted lengthy trials with the S-70. That's the white prototype with the S-70 silhouette in digital camouflage and the Su-57 and S-70 silhouette together on its stabilizer. S-70 integration into the Su-35 is something probably years away for a hypothetical Su-35SM that utilizes systems employed by the Su-57S/Su-57M.

 

[EmoBirb]

On Feb/April 2024, Su-57's used new stealth cruise missiles type Kh-69 to attack some high value targets in the vicinity of the city of Kiev.One of them was thermal power plant Trypol.

Photo from the GosMKB 'Raduga': blue line shows us ARM type Kh-58UShK (TP), red one shows us CM type Kh-69 and yellow shows us new CM/ASM type Kh-59M2A? (Izdeliye 720?), all of them are for the Su-57/S-70.

It's also worth noting that in most, or following most of the large Russian missile waves, Kh-69 strikes and Su-57 deployment were reported by various UA and RU channels on Telegram, Twitter and the likes. And given that no other aircraft type uses the Kh-69, it's to be assumed that every Kh-69 used was launched by a Su-57. As other tactical aircraft would rely on the more common Kh-59.

I wouldn't be surprised if the serial jets allocated for combat missions would rack up plenty of flight hours, although I'm still assuming most of the Su-57S are utilized for training as of now. Makes me wonder if perhaps prototype aircraft, especially the later more complete ones, would see combat deployments mostly for data gathering, adjustments and incremental improvements.

 

[Squirrel]

I thought the S-70 was shot down by a Su-35, after the Su-57 lost control of the drone?

Very possible because Su-57 for certain did not fly even close to S-70 Hunter-B like many thought.Data-link channel as part of OSNOD enables to network e.g. two/four or more Su-57's or Su-57 and S-70 from a distance of 400km in front or to the side ( at 10.000m and higher).

 

[paralay]

We've all seen this video of the downing of the C-70. What kind of fighter there was speculation based on the fact that the Su-57 is working with the S-70. But this is not a fact.

 

[Squirrel]

It's also worth noting that in most, or following most of the large Russian missile waves, Kh-69 strikes and Su-57 deployment were reported by various UA and RU channels on Telegram, Twitter and the likes. And given that no other aircraft type uses the Kh-69, it's to be assumed that every Kh-69 used was launched by a Su-57. As other tactical aircraft would rely on the more common Kh-59.

I wouldn't be surprised if the serial jets allocated for combat missions would rack up plenty of flight hours, although I'm still assuming most of the Su-57S are utilized for training as of now. Makes me wonder if perhaps prototype aircraft, especially the later more complete ones, would see combat deployments mostly for data gathering, adjustments and incremental improvements.

If we talk about CM type Kh-69 and ARM type Kh-58UShK-TP, they were for sure launched from Su-57, yes. Ukrainians tried several times to attack them with combat drones at the Akhtubinsk and Lipetsk-2 air bases and succeed to damage one of the prototypes. From which airbase they take off to combat sortie, it is mostly unknown. As I wrote, they started with first combat group of four Su-57's,now they can use more of them networked in one and of course networked with other air or ground assets.

 

[Geo]

Why the Su-57 is a very smart and forward-looking platform:

- It is a combat aircraft that already meets—or is on track to meet—a number of requirements for future fighter jets (large internal fuel capacity, spacious internal weapons bays for ALCMs, multisensor threat coverage, high supersonic cruising speed, and high operational ceiling).

- Risk reduction at the beginning of the project (including the choice of evolutionary 3I design over revolutionary 3AM) and, above all, technological pragmatism (with the possibility of gradual improvements) contribute to the cost-effectiveness of the program.

- The modernization potential of the Su-57 is enormous—everything is just beginning.

- If, according to Lockheed Martin, the upgraded F-35 will deliver 80% of NGAD capabilities (with the remaining 20% limited by physical constraints, such as speed and range) at 50% of the cost, then a deeply modernized T-50 could achieve an even higher percentage of those capabilities.

- The Russian Federation no longer essentially needs to develop a multirole 6th generation fighter (although, based on experience from Ukraine, the development of a new long-range interceptor to eventually replace the MiG-31BM/K will likely become a high-priority program—potentially at the expense of others like the A-100).

- The Megapolis project already includes improvements such as more efficient engines, enhanced stealth (flat nozzles, new materials), upgraded sensors, and the integration of AI—including a tested "optionally manned" mode.

- Significant attention is being given to the development of a MUMT interface to enable cooperation with a range of drones, from the Molniya project, through the S-71K/M, to the Grom, Grom-2, and S-70.

- The Russian design school is highly flexible when it comes to upgrades and has historically had no problem implementing even structural changes (e.g., 9.15 vs. 9.12, or T-10M/T-10BM/T-10V vs. T-10S—not to mention proposed variants never realized due to the USSR’s collapse). Therefore, a T-50 modified for post-2040 service could differ significantly—even visually—from the current Su-57, including enhanced stealth and extended range through design changes and 6th-generation engine technologies.

- At a production rate of 10–12 units per year, once the current contract is fulfilled, the Russian Aerospace Forces could possess at least 200 operational fighters by 2040—along with a fully developed and functional "ecosystem", training and operational infrastructure.


A prospective front-line aviation complex in the truest sense of the term.

 

[Squirrel]

Yet another pic from the 'mouse perspective' ....



Source : http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft30859.htm

 

[Ronny]

If you want speed ,you must have 'box-like aerodynamic shape' like on MiG-25/-31

Nah, I don't think so

 

[Squirrel]

Nah, I don't think so
View attachment 772162
View attachment 772163

I meant fighter planes like mentioned MiG-25/-31.....

 

[Ronny]

I meant fighter planes like mentioned MiG-25/-31.....

Even in that case, boxy body is not compulsory

 

[Deino]

Why the Su-57 is a very smart and forward-looking platform:
….
A prospective front-line aviation complex in the truest sense of the term.

Well and the same and the same is explained in length in regular intervalls… since abaut 20 years and still almost nothing is reality!

 

[Geo]

Well and the same and the same is explained in length in regular intervalls… since abaut 20 years and still almost nothing is reality!

What an ifantile manipulative argument.

Su-57 is not a reality?
10 - 11 tons of fuel in internal tanks is not a reality?
Kh-69 in IWB is not a reality?
Sh-121, MIRES, 101KS are not a reality? Izd. 117, 177, 30 are not a reality?
Flat nozzles are not a reality?
...

 

[Ainen]

Why the Su-57 is a very smart and forward-looking platform:

Reality check - plane ended up being of only so-so relevance in the largest conflict for Russia. Features themselves can be bright(su-57 in this sense follows original trend of 5th gen fighter development), but the result is that it's a plane of russian fears (fighter meant to fight superior stealth force), which is, thankfully for now at least, "preparing for the previous war".
Russia is stuck in positional warfare for multiple reasons, but one of the most core ones among them is its inability to benefit from air superiority, or maintain it. Su-57/s-70 does little to resolve it against a very typical post-soviet army (Ukraine).

Plane created for this situation is called S-75(LTS), which is private effort(1), was born only in 2019(2), isn't fully embrased by Russia(3), and is more or less an updated and refined variation of JSF concept from over 20 years earlier(4).
Or even earlier CALFs and earlier without inter-service integration.

Result of this miscalculation is that Russia largely failed to capitalize on its investment in air power, and role of such airpower in Ukraine is taken by other means (small unmanned air&tactical fires for battlefield, one way strike drones on commercial components for strike).
Yes, one may say that they're now beginning a military revolution (which isn't especially favourable to Russia), but the goal was victory (i.e. ability to achieve means through military means), not military revolution.

I mean, uniqueness is nice, as a plane enthusiast, i am always strongly for examples of unusual engineering, instead of 25th F-35 at home.
But the practice is here.

 

[Deino]

What an ifantile manipulative argument.

Su-57 is not a reality?
10 - 11 tons of fuel in internal tanks is not a reality?
Kh-69 in IWB is not a reality?
Sh-121, MIRES, 101KS are not a reality? Izd. 117, 177, 30 are not a reality?
Flat nozzles are not a reality?
...

What counts and what is relevant are operational numbers in frontline units, not any certain details like a special grey, more a grey-grey than the one other air forces use - or any other detail.
And since you mention it: Is it a sign of being so much of a "very smart and forward-looking platform" since there is "Izd. 117, 177, 30"? and in fact, so far where is the long-promised Izd. 30 in service, and the flat nozzle is a test-bed, nothing more!? Not yet and as it seems there are again claims after claim and promise after promise but still nothing in real live even against what official "sources" claim!

As such, come back when the second frontline unit is ready and you have operational experience in numbers for years, then we can talk about being a "very smart and forward-looking platform" ... but in the meantime while Russia tries to finished what they promised for ages, other nations are progressing even more forward, and you portray about a dozen or 20 operational basic Su-57 as the best of the best!

That's pathetic - and in fact comparable to claims by some Indians, the Tejas would be the best 4+th generation fighter around, nothing more. I slowly think we should indeed start a separate section within this forum as a "Kindergarten or Krabbelgruppe" where new members can earn their credibility by posting stuff before being promoted to discuss with the big ones! And as long as they only post random fan-boy stuff and overhyped expectations as relevant facts, they should remain there! @overscan (PaulMM)

 

[Geo]

What counts and what is relevant are operational numbers in frontline units, not any certain details like a special grey, more a grey-grey than the one other air forces use - or any other detail.
And since you mention it: Is it a sign of being so much of a "very smart and forward-looking platform" since there is "Izd. 117, 177, 30"? and in fact, so far where is the long-promised Izd. 30 in service, and the flat nozzle is a test-bed, nothing more!? Not yet and as it seems there are again claims after claim and promise after promise but still nothing in real live even against what official "sources" claim!

As such, come back when the second frontline unit is ready and you have operational experience in numbers for years, then we can talk about being a "very smart and forward-looking platform" ... but in the meantime while Russia tries to finished what they promised for ages, other nations are progressing even more forward, and you portray about a dozen or 20 operational basic Su-57 as the best of the best!

That's pathetic - and in fact comparable to claims by some Indians, the Tejas would be the best 4+th generation fighter around, nothing more. I slowly think we should indeed start a separate section within this forum as a "Kindergarten or Krabbelgruppe" where new members can earn their credibility by posting stuff before being promoted to discuss with the big ones! And as long as they only post random fan-boy stuff and overhyped expectations as relevant facts, they should remain there! @overscan (PaulMM)

Oh my God. He wasn't able to understand that post at all.

 

[lancer21]

Yeah, no idea what that gibberish is supposed to mean (wth has Tejas to do with this topic). There might have been about 3 dozen or thereabouts Su-57s built to date, but that's still 3 dozen more 5th gen modern fighters than any other country bar the US and China, still a commendable feat considering the near meltdown of the russian aviation industry in the 1990s and up to the better part of the 2000s. If anything, Su-57 and other recent quite successful programs such as Su-34, Su-35 etc. are more like the phoenix rising from the ashes.

 

[Stormingart]

The Su-57 is not used in Ukraine in any significant way due to its small numbers. It would be invaluable during a direct conflict with NATO. Russia produced 12 Su-57s in 2023 and has constructed a new production facility since then. This means Su-57 production can double to 24 assuming the new production facility is used to produce both the Su-57 and older aircraft. Maybe up to 36 per year if it only produces the Su-57. This means Su-57 has the potential to already outpace peak F-22 production. My theory for why not much Su-57s were produced in 2024 is because Russia is preparing for Su-57M production.

Russia is clearly expecting a future conflict with NATO. WSJ states Russia is producing 300 T-90Ms every year with almost none of them going to Ukraine. Russia also removed 1,040 T-80s from storage in 2023 due to satellite footage with 740 being modernized to T-80BVM standard and the rest being cannibalized for parts. Not much T-80BVM tanks have been seen since the initial invasion.

We also know through the Victory Day Parade that 4th Guards Tank (the most elite unit) is still being kept in reserve following its involvement in the initial invasion outside of a few elements in the Northern Group of Forces. Most of the equipment you see here are from this unit.

This is not to say Russia is holding back in Ukraine. It is not politically possible for Russia to start general mobilization which would be needed if more units were to be deployed. This means these units cannot really be used outside of a conflict with NATO where it would be politically possible to start general mobilization. In 2022, Russia deployed 50 or so BTGs into Ukraine but each BTG could only take 250 casualties before becoming combat ineffective. This means Russia could only take around 12,500 casualties before all their BTGs were combat ineffective. This is roughly the amount of casualties they taken in 2022 as per MediaZona and resulted in the partial mobilization of late 2022 which gave Russia fresh troops to rebuild these destroyed units but also caused civil unrest.

So the Su-57 is forward thinking due to Russia expecting a future conflict with NATO. They are stockpiling massive amounts of tanks, IFVs, and missiles for a war against NATO. The Su-57 would be an invaluable asset in such a war.

 

[EmoBirb]

My theory for why not much Su-57s were produced in 2024 is because Russia is preparing for Su-57M production.

That and because Su-35S production is also running simultaneously, I think largely in the same facility. One would expect that Su-35S production either gets transferred to another facility elsewhere or further expansion takes place (or Su-35S production gets halted, but I doubt it).

And it definitely doesn't make sense to commit completely to the Su-57S when it's very clearly an interim model, meant to figure stuff out, train people and get an overall understanding of the matter (worthwhile to remember it's Russias first production stealth aircraft, so the learning curve is steep). And the Su-57M cannot go into production until all the subsystems and especially the engines are ready for production as well.

But having a comparatively bare model at the very beginning and then getting the real deal a short while after isn't unheard of in military aviation.

 

[Stormingart]

That and because Su-35S production is also running simultaneously, I think largely in the same facility. One would expect that Su-35S production either gets transferred to another facility elsewhere or further expansion takes place (or Su-35S production gets halted, but I doubt it).

And it definitely doesn't make sense to commit completely to the Su-57S when it's very clearly an interim model, meant to figure stuff out, train people and get an overall understanding of the matter (worthwhile to remember it's Russias first production stealth aircraft, so the learning curve is steep). And the Su-57M cannot go into production until all the subsystems and especially the engines are ready for production as well.

But having a comparatively bare model at the very beginning and then getting the real deal a short while after isn't unheard of in military aviation.

Su-35S production definitely not going to be halted. Especially since the Su-35SM seems to be coming soon (maybe this year or next year). Su-35S was also delivered in 2023. I heard it is going to have Su-57 components so that should also simplify production for both.

 

[Galaxy]

What counts and what is relevant are operational numbers in frontline units, not any certain details like a special grey, more a grey-grey than the one other air forces use - or any other detail.
And since you mention it: Is it a sign of being so much of a "very smart and forward-looking platform" since there is "Izd. 117, 177, 30"? and in fact, so far where is the long-promised Izd. 30 in service, and the flat nozzle is a test-bed, nothing more!? Not yet and as it seems there are again claims after claim and promise after promise but still nothing in real live even against what official "sources" claim!

As such, come back when the second frontline unit is ready and you have operational experience in numbers for years, then we can talk about being a "very smart and forward-looking platform" ... but in the meantime while Russia tries to finished what they promised for ages, other nations are progressing even more forward, and you portray about a dozen or 20 operational basic Su-57 as the best of the best!

That's pathetic - and in fact comparable to claims by some Indians, the Tejas would be the best 4+th generation fighter around, nothing more. I slowly think we should indeed start a separate section within this forum as a "Kindergarten or Krabbelgruppe" where new members can earn their credibility by posting stuff before being promoted to discuss with the big ones! And as long as they only post random fan-boy stuff and overhyped expectations as relevant facts, they should remain there! @overscan (PaulMM)

What did I just read? What are you even trying to say? What does an SU-57 have to do with Indians and Tejas? As Geo posted the aircraft has a lot of potential and you instead you went off on a tangent.

As for SU-57 operational experience. The 30 or so SU-57 airframes literally….and I mean literally have more combat experience then thousands of Chinese produced aircraft going back decades…or even some western aircraft. The SU-57 has operated in an high intensity environment for around 4 years with hundreds of S-300s, BUKs, Patriots, IRIS-Ts, NASAMS, SU-27s, F-16s, MiG-29s, Mirages, in one of the most challenging electronics warfare environments on earth with Ukrainians getting NATO global weapons intelligence, training, planning, logistics and weapons.

I would not call that “pathetic” combat experience. And what is not pathetic combat experience? Bombing illiterate peasants with slippers and bedsheets?

The SU-57 may not have the lowest RCS but it is still very unique and has a lot of capabilities not found on comparable aircraft such as the side facing radars giving the SU-57 better situational awareness, better ground scanning and better mid course guidance as the aircraft can turn away and still maintain a lock. It also has a stealthy attack UAV (S-71M) that fits into the weapons bays as well as data link to the S-70, Moreover Russian electronic warfare systems have been praised by Ukraine and the west as some of the best in the world and Russia has also invested heavily in artificial intelligence. If the war in Ukraine taught us anything it’s that Russians constantly upgrade and improve in a short time. Russians made countless improvements to the SU-57 as they have made hundreds of improvements to drones, guided munitions, missiles, ect.

As for SU-57 production, it is likely slowed down because Russia is producing thousands of drones and missiles each month, along with new SU-34s, SU-35s, KA-52, and a variety of other aircraft plus naval vessels, armored vehicles, artillery systems, radars, ect. After the war i imagine that a lot more resources, funding and microchips will be available to ramp up production.

 

[EmoBirb]

Indeed, as it stands the Su-57 is the only aircraft of it's generation with a serious combat record, Israeli F-35s come in second probably.

Certainly nothing to scoff at, especially when we compare blowing up power plants with internally carried cruise missile vs (checks notes) shooting down weather balloons.

 

[stealthflanker]

As for SU-57 production, it is likely slowed down because Russia is producing thousands of drones and missiles each month, along with new SU-34s, SU-35s, KA-52,

Aren't these were made in different factories ?

Su-57 is in Komosomlsk on Amur and separate line from Su-35.
Su-34 is in Novosibirsk
Ka-52 is somewhere in Ulan Ude

I dont think Su-57 is "slow" it's more like because the initial order was already relatively small (76 frames) Which, if full production capacity of 20-24 airframes are utilized can be finished in just 3-4 years. This kind of pace is good if there would be follow-up orders but without follow up, then you are risking losing specialists and trained workers as they might quit or retired or assigned elsewhere. Making it hard to reconstitute skills when you actually want to order later.

 

[Ainen]

I dont think Su-57 is "slow" it's more like because the initial order was already relatively small (76 frames) Which, if full production capacity of 20-24 airframes are utilized can be finished in just 3-4 years.

I don't know what people expect. Entire VKS modern flanker fighter(without su-34) force is perhaps 300-ish fighter strong, and those are airframe with average age of around or below just 7 years.
Ok, VKS can order 100 fighters per month, it'll update the entire fleet by 2028, send still new flankers into storage, 2 factories and regions - into debt graves and social protests.
With su-34, add another 2 years and get a 3rd hungry factory.
Good plan.

 

[Geo]

Aren't these were made in different factories ?

Su-57 is in Komosomlsk on Amur and separate line from Su-35.
Su-34 is in Novosibirsk
Ka-52 is somewhere in Ulan Ude

I dont think Su-57 is "slow" it's more like because the initial order was already relatively small (76 frames) Which, if full production capacity of 20-24 airframes are utilized can be finished in just 3-4 years. This kind of pace is good if there would be follow-up orders but without follow up, then you are risking losing specialists and trained workers as they might quit or retired or assigned elsewhere. Making it hard to reconstitute skills when you actually want to order later.

Factories are different, the source is only one. That is why Galaxy included drones, missiles, etc. in the list.
As for the continuity of professional competence, just look at the social media of Rostec, UAC and UEC. They are very well aware of this.

 

[Archibald]

This thread is slowly but surely turning into a russian trolls nest. No respect to @Deino when he contradicts "ruzzia stronkk !!" fantasies. Sickening...

 

[TMA1]

Getting sick and tired of moderators and old timers whining about their boomer neocon/neolib pet topic du jour and making snide snipes at people over and over and over. This place is losing what it once had in spades. Mods and admins get a grip. Knock off the sanctimony, venom, political griping, arrogance, etc. What is wrong with you guys? Are you guys even aware of these issues? Wake up.

 

[EmoBirb]

Getting sick and tired of moderators and old timers whining about their boomer neocon/neolib pet topic du jour and making snide snipes at people over and over and over. This place is losing what it once had in spades. Mods and admins get a grip. Knock off the sanctimony, venom, political griping, arrogance, etc. What is wrong with you guys? Are you guys even aware of these issues? Wake up.

While this is getting off topic, I too notice a very distinct break between people above around 30-40 years and below when it comes to how to approach certain topics and overall demeanor (and it's not always what you'd expect from grown ups).

But I think this is something the moderator/staff team has to sort out internally, overall I think the people that run this forum are at large impartial and on the fairer side of things, which is why I generally trust them to figure stuff out on their own.

I think this would be better off to be in this thread:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...ration-and-post-bans.45875/page-2#post-793385

Or just brought forward personally towards the mod team by reaching out to them.

Here we should limit ourselves to the Su-57 and everything related to it.

(I don't necessarily disagree with you, I just think this is the wrong place)

 

[Galaxy]

Aren't these were made in different factories ?

Su-57 is in Komosomlsk on Amur and separate line from Su-35.
Su-34 is in Novosibirsk
Ka-52 is somewhere in Ulan Ude

I dont think Su-57 is "slow" it's more like because the initial order was already relatively small (76 frames) Which, if full production capacity of 20-24 airframes are utilized can be finished in just 3-4 years. This kind of pace is good if there would be follow-up orders but without follow up, then you are risking losing specialists and trained workers as they might quit or retired or assigned elsewhere. Making it hard to reconstitute skills when you actually want to order later.

Yes different factories but I believe SU-57 production is hampered by allocation of resources for other projects in relation to available electronics components.

This thread is slowly but surely turning into a russian trolls nest. No respect to @Deino when he contradicts "ruzzia stronkk !!" fantasies. Sickening...

Excuse me, you might want to go back and read who is trolling. Everyone here was having a civil discussion about production numbers and her are people like you calling people trolls and ruzzia stronkk and for what? You literally just jump into conversations without reading posts and started accusing people of trolling when you don’t even know what is being discussed. Dino also had absolutely nothing of value to bring to the conversation whatsoever. He went on an off topic rant about “pathetic” combat experience of the SU-57 despite the SU-57 operating for almost 4 years in the highest intensity conflict since WW2, he then complained about production numbers and flat nozzles and in general just nonsense.

Imagine if it was an F-35 or J-20 thread and trolls jumped in and derailed the thread with similar moronic things about those aircraft and then said trolls would call Americans and Chinese members having a normal conversation trolls and Chinaaa stronkk or Merica steonkk.

Lack of self awareness….

 

[EmoBirb]

@Galaxy I advise you to make liberal use of the block and report function. It increases the user experience dramatically, believe me

 

[paralay]

Ka-52 is somewhere in Ulan Ude

The Ka-52 is produced here

 

[Geo]

Yes different factories but I believe SU-57 production is hampered by allocation of resources for other projects in relation to available electronics components.




Excuse me, you might want to go back and read who is trolling. Everyone here was having a civil discussion about production numbers and her are people like you calling people trolls and ruzzia stronkk and for what? You literally just jump into conversations without reading posts and started accusing people of trolling when you don’t even know what is being discussed. Dino also had absolutely nothing of value to bring to the conversation whatsoever. He went on an off topic rant about “pathetic” combat experience of the SU-57 despite the SU-57 operating for almost 4 years in the highest intensity conflict since WW2, he then complained about production numbers and flat nozzles and in general just nonsense.

Imagine if it was an F-35 or J-20 thread and trolls jumped in and derailed the thread with similar moronic things about those aircraft and then said trolls would call Americans and Chinese members having a normal conversation trolls and Chinaaa stronkk or Merica steonkk.

Lack of self awareness….

Thank you, Galaxy.

 

[Archibald]

Getting sick and tired of moderators and old timers whining about their boomer neocon/neolib pet topic du jour and making snide snipes at people over and over and over. This place is losing what it once had in spades. Mods and admins get a grip. Knock off the sanctimony, venom, political griping, arrogance, etc. What is wrong with you guys? Are you guys even aware of these issues? Wake up.

The exact six people who liked this post are the exact ones I was thinking about when typing my earlier message... something is definitively amiss with this thread.

 

[lancer21]

@Galaxy I advise you to make liberal use of the block and report function. It increases the user experience dramatically, believe me

Yeah keep calm and use the report button and give it a little while. If no action is taken contact Overscan directly with your concerns be it about members or mods derailing threads/behaving inappropriately etc (that's iirc is what he advised to do). Though if we keep having to go to Overscan directly makes you wonder what some of his mods are doing (apart from some of them derailing threads in the first place...)

 

[Maro.Kyo]

Well, those who are very adamant of defending of Geo's position here, I'm sorry to tell but if a forum member that goes around typing stuff like these on other threads :

"GCAP is an effort by Japan and its two European partners to build a next-generation fighter"... . Well said, Reuters.

It looks like this effort will end up the same as SCAF.

There will ve no GCAPs, no SCAFs, no "6th gen" Saabs.

There will be many and many F-35s for all. Even for France and Sweden will be enough.

comes up with something like this :

Why the Su-57 is a very smart and forward-looking platform:

- It is a combat aircraft that already meets—or is on track to meet—a number of requirements for future fighter jets (large internal fuel capacity, spacious internal weapons bays for ALCMs, multisensor threat coverage, high supersonic cruising speed, and high operational ceiling).

(...)

do you guys seriously think other members of the forum, who are not only interested in Russian aviation, but various other topics, are going to take it seriously? What comes goes, and vice versa. No wonder Deino is ridiculing him as your typical Russian fanboy without much consideration. The only reason we haven't seen what we're having here in the other thread is because people mostly decided to ignore what he's saying because that rubbish really is vague of any value.

Though, I personally think that Deino should have at least took a step back and ask him based on what he is arguing such things, since the original post by Geo were rather a collection of statements, be it a very wild statement, than a serious analysis. Statements are just that, statements. They don't hold much value unless you could back them up, but conversely if you could indeed back them up with rational reasoning, it holds value. I am also personally guilty of that matter, and I should acknowledge, but that's further the reason I should say this. Obviously, I can't say that the "discussion would have progressed towards anything more productive, if I look back on how things have been on various forums (here, Key.pub, f-16.net, etc...) for closer to 2 decades at this point. But even then, since Deino is a mod, I think he should have at least took that one step further. Had Geo given his reasoning for those statements, and Deino disagreed, that would've been a different matter.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

And my personal opinions on the matter of Su-57's design.

Now that we are around 3 decades into the current "generation" of combat air systems, I think there are mainly 3 pillars that are core to the concept of most, if not all, of those contemporary combat air systems. Namely reduction in observability in varying degrees, situational awareness and NCW. These 3 are closely interconnected with each other and it wouldn't make much sense to discuss each in isolation.

As for the American and Chinese designs, I think that they put reduction of observability over everything else, and as a result rely heavily in passive SA. Russian design philosophy with Su-57 on the other hand seems to put active SA over the other, and to an extent active means of protection (and by this, I don't only mean hardkill, but also aircraft kinematics, ie mobility). Most importatnly, I think this stems from the differences in their NCW philosophy, moreover the overall air operations doctrine of Russia that is very different from that of the US and China.

Not to mention that comparing a fighter to fighter on a purely technical basis, which is indeed quite fun, is ultimately in lack of context, and I know it because I was also caught in that trap in the past. Although more recently there are more talk about system of systems, I should argue that air power always has been a system of systems in grander scheme. I'm very sure it makes more sense to compare why the Russians decided to build Su-57 the way it is compared to American and Chinese aircrafts. And a lot of the people already did, including in this forum, which was most of the times a much more enjoyable discussion. I must admit, I wanted to talk about those matters much more earlier but have been put off for other reasons.

From this perspective, I can't really agree with Geo's statements, since most of his statements lack such context.

As for the discussion about Su-57 operational history, it is indeed very relevant but ultimately a different topic. In essence, Geo's statements refers to design philosophy. Trying to argue his statements with your take on Su-57's operational history is ultimately doomed to go messy, since that's not solely the problem of system design, but also the problem of project management and operational planning. You'll always be talking about two different things in the parallel, which obviously leads to nowhere.

My two cents.

 

[Galaxy]

the original post by Geo were rather a collection of statements, be it a very wild statement, than a serious analysis. Statements are just that, statements. They don't hold much value unless you could back them up, but conversely if you could indeed back them up with rational reasoning,

What was “wild” about his statements? Here is a snippet of what he said:

“- It is a combat aircraft that already meets—or is on track to meet—a number of requirements for future fighter jets (large internal fuel capacity, spacious internal weapons bays for ALCMs, multisensor threat coverage, high supersonic cruising speed, and high operational ceiling).”

What is so wild about that? The SU-57 does have a large fuel capacity, it does have large weapons bays, it does have 360 degree sensors, and it does have a high supersonic speed and those are generally considered desirable traits in any 5th or 6th generation fighter.

Seems like anytime anyone states facts about the SU-57 the same group of people jump in and start pounding their chests calling everyone “ruzzia stronkk“ and “pathetic” and “trolls”. The same people would not bat an eye if people would call the SU-57 trash but any time someone mentions well know SU-57s facts the same people incessantly start raging and polluting the thread with insults and no counter arguments.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

What was “wild” about his statements? Here is a snippet of what he said:

“- It is a combat aircraft that already meets—or is on track to meet—a number of requirements for future fighter jets (large internal fuel capacity, spacious internal weapons bays for ALCMs, multisensor threat coverage, high supersonic cruising speed, and high operational ceiling).”

What is so wild about that? The SU-57 does have a large fuel capacity, it does have large weapons bays, it does have 360 degree sensors, and it does have a high supersonic speed and those are generally considered desirable traits in any 5th or 6th generation fighter.

Seems like anytime anyone states facts about the SU-57 the same group of people jump in and start pounding their chests calling everyone “ruzzia stronkk“ and “pathetic” and “trolls”. The same people would not bat an eye if people would call the SU-57 trash but any time someone mentions well know SU-57s facts the same people incessantly start raging and polluting the thread with insults and no counter arguments.

It is wild because for one, we don't know what the future fighter jets are supposed to be in detailed manner, just bits from here and there from some analysis and interview exerpts, and secondly, few of the important traits he is mentioning are not something exclusive to the Su-57. Moreover, to argue that Su-57 is best suited for future needs, so much so that "Russian Federation no longer needs to develop 6th gen fighter" based on those statements is nothing but wild. And last but not least, as I've said in my post just above your's, his statements are very much in lack of context.

Also, better think twice before saying something, and perhaps go through my posting history on this thread, since it can't be further from truth that I'm jumping to calling people trolls, or not express any disdain for baselss arguments, be it for but also against the Su-57. If anything you are overly defensive, that you even seem to desire to pick a fight.

 

[Archibald]

Seems like anytime anyone states facts about the SU-57 the same group of people jump in and start pounding their chests calling everyone “ruzzia stronkk“ and “pathetic” and “trolls”. The same people would not bat an eye if people would call the SU-57 trash but any time someone mentions well know SU-57s facts the same people incessantly start raging and polluting the thread with insults and no counter arguments.

Pot calling the kettle black. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_pot_calling_the_kettle_black

Right back at you. You are the one making outrageous claim about the Su-57, all thread long.

 

[Galaxy]

It is wild because for one, we don't know what the future fighter jets are supposed to be in detailed manner, just bits from here and there from some analysis and interview exerpts, and secondly, few of the important traits he is mentioning are not something exclusive to the Su-57. Moreover, to argue that Su-57 is best suited for future needs, so much so that "Russian Federation no longer needs to develop 6th gen fighter" based on those statements is nothing but wild. And last but not least, as I've said in my post just above your's, his statements are very much in lack of context.

Also, better think twice before saying something, and perhaps go through my posting history on this thread, since it can't be further from truth that I'm jumping to calling people trolls, or not express any disdain for baselss arguments, be it for but also against the Su-57. If anything you are overly defensive, that you even seem to desire to pick a fight.

You don’t need to have top secret information to see China is developing large long range aircraft with large international fuel and weapons bays. Future US aircraft are also following a similar concept. I also do not agree that Russia does not need a future 6th generation aircraft however at the same time Russia has a lot of upgrade potential for the SU-57 similar to how the SU-27 evolved into the SU-30 or SU-34. The SU-75 already has multiple future concepts such as a twin seat version and an unmanned version so I believe the SU-57 can go a similar route.

I also never called you a troll nor am I “defensive”. Read the thread and you would know who I was talking about since they have a history of inappropriate behavior of name calling instead of engaging in direct dialogue.