Kashmir Conflict 2025 - News ONLY

On airdefense.net forums somebody said that, when a Rafale pilot ejects, SPECTRA automatically commits electronic suicide - it erases itself. Same story for the "threats library" (whatever the english translation for that, in french "bibliothèque de menaces")
 
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Galaxy said:
That’s marketing for you. The Russians also studied captured Leopards, apparently the engines overheat and lose 50% power, the gun does not have that great of range, ect. Reminds me of fancy “luxury” European cars that fall apart after a few years.
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Utter nonsense. The Leopard 2 is being operated by 25 different countries, including various conscription armies, starting 46 years ago. Pretty much everything interesting about the tank is public knowledge, including various flaws, for example the turret electronics reboot if you fire up the main engine since the main generators create a powerspike the electrical system can't handle, which is a bit awkward.
The engine is ancient and rock solid, the only criticism you can leverage against it is that modern MTU engines produce the same power from half the fuel input requiring half the internal volume, but apparently nobody wants to give MTU the money they demand for their high power density line except the germans in the Puma.
The fire control system of the gun stops calculating firing solutions if the laser rangefinder measures above 5000m range to target since shooting at targets beyond that range is considered impractical - mind you, not impossible. In normal european terrain there are few open flat plains, typical combat distance is 1-2km. All the record distance tank kills happened in the gulf war deserts and are in the 3-4km range. Beyond that modern tank optics don't really allow identifying a target anyways.
I talked to a Leopard 2 gunner about shooting helicopters, and he said it's easy with APFDSD due to the high speed of the projectile and regularly practiced in the simulator. That's the only scenario where the 5km range finder (software!) limit is even interesting.
APFSDS has a safety range of 100km, special practice rounds have holes to destabilize it to reduce it so tank ranges in europe don't require countries to invade their neighbour to make room for them.
 
Archibald said:
On airdefense.net forums somebody said that, when a Rafale pilot ejects, SPECTRA automatically commits eletronic suicide - it erases itself. Same story for the "threats library" (whatever the english translation for that, in french "bibliothèque de menaces")
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Yes. And btw, SPECTRA relies heavily on the bibliothèque de menaces from what I know. Remember back when Rafales were first deployed in Red Flag, the "accusations" that the French were there more for "sniffing" any electronic emissions from others around than really train ? To enrich the database.
Here again confirms my suspicions, if one don't have enough EW data on relatively new systems like new Chineses radars and missiles to tune the system, then you're at a disadvantage. Moreover if the opponent itself HAS access to the same defense suite and radar you're using, and can tune their own systems to defeat yours.
 
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galgot said:
Btw, reporting this I've read on another forum, The Qatari Rafales are flown and maintained by Pakistani crew (yes real, crazy...)... So it doesn't take a 1 + 1 to deduce that its electronic defence and attack system as good as it may be, has been compromised by the Pakistanis and handed over to China.
Plus the Indians planing their strike like years before, and that's what you get.
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Pakistan Air Force “locked” the communication system of Indian Rafale fighter jets a few days ago.

Pakistani Prime Minister Shahbaz Sharif said in Parliament that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) had “locked” the communication system of India's Rafale fighter jets a few days ago.
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Interesting theories about possible RAFALE kompromat. Given the revelations about the various SODIUM CYCLONES my first reaction was the Peking Partners had the data on the strike location, packages and time frame and passed it down to the Pack to set up a ambush.
 
SUPER=BUG said:
It's a bit whimsical.:p
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To think Pakistan and their Chineses allies wouldn't take advantage that some of their citizens work on the same latest system their enemy has acquired, and thus as more than enough time to learn its full capability to exploit it ? Be my guest...
 
galgot said:
To think Pakistan and their Chineses allies wouldn't take advantage that some of their citizens work on the same latest system their enemy has acquired, and thus as more than enough time to learn its full capability to exploit it ? Be my guest...
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All this is very speculative IMHO.

- Just because Qatar's Rafales have Pakistani pilots and ground crews doesn't mean that they have access to the full Spectra capabilities, software code or threat libraries. Access to sensitive capabilities is often restricted on a "need to know" basis, e.g. to specialists or only Qatari nationals; software, documentation etc would typically be locked down to restrict someone's ability to extract details etc. It's not like anyone can walk up to an aircraft, insert a thumb drive and download the electronic warfare software.​

- Also it's very likely that neither Qatar nor India nor any export customer (except perhaps Greece) has all Spectra features enabled. We don't know what this means for a NATO user or French Rafales operating against ROW aircraft. Same would be true for any non-NATO airforce using Typhoons, F-15s, F-16s etc.​
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- Finally we see lots of PL-15 that missed but don't have any confirmation if one hit anything (and may never get that). The downed Rafale could have been a victim of SAM damage, friendly fire, human error (e.g. pilot loss of situational awareness, task saturation etc), or simply bad luck.​
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So basically extrapolating anything from the fog of war, especially with access to only OSINT and biased sources is hard and often impossible. Using that to make claims about the future is downright foolish... or just trolling.
 
The only thing we can probably establish (based on my reading of events that is potentially incomplete)

- IAF has lost at least two fighters as evident from published pictures from two distinct geographic locations. There could have been more so there's a potential for that.
- At least one of those appears too have been the first Rafale the service took delivery of
- The Rafale lost was most likely the vehicle for deploying the Scalp cruise missile at targets in and around Bahawalpur and may have been picked off when returning back to base

There is nothing that I have seen that even remotely confirms a PL-15 Rafale kill. The PL-15 debris that I have seen online seems to point to a geographic location that is hundreds of km's away from the Rafale crash site. It may indeed have been true but we cannot establish it..and a SAM kill and/or pilot error etc cannot be ruled out at this point. I dont think the IAF has even admitted fighter losses at this point so we will probably have to wait for official naratives unless they want to run with the one that's online where the supporters on the Indian side are literally pointint to any evidence of aircraft crash as fake news, asking grok to corroborate (LOL) and pointing to a google-search feature glitch as evidence that the rafale crash pics are doctored. I also see some folks on the other end jumping to big conclusions somehow proving supremacy of Chinese fighters and missiles over French ones without first establishing that this was indeed how the Rafale went down.
 
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All this Galgot´s suppositions are like alternate theories that would mix the finest lines of the Holy Spirit, Disney Bambi and Einstein relativity. Quite a feat but...
Let´s remember that the seller´s state has all rights, will and power to ensure the safety of a weapon system, for its customer and own forces... Hence, why would we blame the Pakistani? Should they also ask the French fighters to shoot first, s'il vous plait?

Seriously, the entire US DoD is often pictured as having been permeated to some extend by Chinese espionage. Why would you think they weren´t able or interested similarly with France threat library (that does seems not to commit as much effort against Chinese hardware as with others)
 
bring_it_on said:
The only thing we can probably establish (based on my reading of events that is potentially incomplete)

- IAF has lost at least two fighters as evident from published pictures from two distinct geographic locations
- At least one of those appears too have been the first Rafale the service took delivery of
- The Rafale lost was most likely the vehicle for deploying the Scalp cruise missile at targets in and around Bahawalpur and may have been picked off when returning back to base

There is nothing that I have seen that even remotely confirms a PL-15 Rafale kill.
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Yes. There also appear to have been relatively few kills considering the number of aircraft in the air. We don't know if this was because of tactics (e.g. defensive posture), limited engagement opportunities, low missile effectiveness, electronic countermeasures etc.
 
H_K said:
All this is very speculative IMHO.

- Just because Qatar's Rafales have Pakistani pilots and ground crews doesn't mean that they have access to the full Spectra capabilities, software code or threat libraries. Access to sensitive capabilities is often restricted on a "need to know" basis, e.g. to specialists or only Qatari nationals; software, documentation etc would typically be locked down to restrict someone's ability to extract details etc. It's not like anyone can walk up to an aircraft, insert a thumb drive and download the electronic warfare software.​

- Also it's very likely that neither Qatar nor India nor any export customer (except perhaps Greece) has all Spectra features enabled. We don't know what this means for a NATO user or French Rafales operating against ROW aircraft. Same would be true for any non-NATO airforce using Typhoons, F-15s, F-16s etc.​
​
- Finally we see lots of PL-15 that missed but don't have any confirmation if one hit anything (and may never get that). The downed Rafale could have been a victim of SAM damage, friendly fire, human error (e.g. pilot loss of situational awareness, task saturation etc), or simply bad luck.​
​
So basically extrapolating anything from the fog of war, especially with access to only OSINT and biased sources is hard and often impossible. Using that to make claims about the future is downright foolish... or just trolling.
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Well sure, it's not like they could have access to code sources and such.
But again, not taking advantage of your own nationals flying and maintaining the same system your enemy just buys in number ? The guys flying the thing must at least have some ideas of the capability of the export version they train on. I have hard time imagining no-one debriefing them when they go back in Pakistan on holidays. And that may have played a role in the recent events, simple.
Now take that as trolling as much as you like, pour ce que j'en ai a faire...

Edit: @H_K, pas de problèmes :)
 
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H_K said:
Yes. There also appear to have been relatively few kills considering the number of aircraft in the air. We don't know if this was because of tactics (e.g. defensive posture), limited engagement opportunities, low missile effectiveness, electronic countermeasures etc.
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The IAF did not appear to have crossed over into Pakistani air space. Given that and the locations of launch aircraft, they appear to have used stand off munitions under protection of ground based air defense. This thus probably limited how their strike aircraft could have been engaged by the PAF and vice-versa.
 
I'd just like to say that multiple Indian news outlets have confirmed "crashes" inside Indian airspace. These crashes can only be either Pakistani or Indian jets. If they were Pakistani jets downed inside India, we'd be getting livestream in 4K60fps. Because we are getting no stream, it's likely Indian jets.
 
siegecrossbow said:
US intelligence confirms J-10C kills.

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Not quite. They confirmed that with "high confidence":

a) J-10s were involved and fired missiles (not F-16s)
b) At least 2 Indian aircraft went down, including a Rafale (which we already know from OSINT)

They conclude that the 2 events are probably linked and J-10s were responsible for the kills. Whether that is actually the case or not, we don't know and they probably aren't in a position to know themselves. (It's not like they would have radar coverage over the area, and comms intercepts will merely tell them what each side is claiming, not what actually happened)
 
H_K said:
Not quite. They confirmed that with "high confidence":

a) J-10s were involved and fired missiles (not F-16s)
b) At least 2 Indian aircraft went down, including a Rafale (which we already know from OSINT)

They conclude that the 2 events are probably linked and J-10s were responsible for the kills. Whether that is actually the case or not, we don't know and they probably aren't in a position to know themselves. (It's not like they would have radar coverage over the area, and comms intercepts will merely tell them what each side is claiming, not what actually happened)
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Well unless the Indians actually come out and say it we can never be 100 percent positive can we. But I don’t think they ever will.
 
Absolutely weird things going on right now. Last night and this night Indian cities are said to have come under attack by Pakistani drones but Pakistan has both times denied that it took any such action.
 
sf7pakistan said:
Absolutely weird things going on right now. Last night and this night Indian cities are said to have come under attack by Pakistani drones but Pakistan has both times denied that it took any such action.
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False flag or maybe plausible deniability from Pakistan side?
 
H_K said:
Not quite. They confirmed that with "high confidence":

a) J-10s were involved and fired missiles (not F-16s)
b) At least 2 Indian aircraft went down, including a Rafale (which we already know from OSINT)

They conclude that the 2 events are probably linked and J-10s were responsible for the kills. Whether that is actually the case or not, we don't know and they probably aren't in a position to know themselves. (It's not like they would have radar coverage over the area, and comms intercepts will merely tell them what each side is claiming, not what actually happened)
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High confidence is rare and is the highest you will get, it means they have multiple, different, solid pieces of evidence corroborating the event.
 
siegecrossbow said:
False flag or maybe plausible deniability from Pakistan side?
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IDK why we would go for plausible deniability when Pakistan has to retaliate and said that she'd do it in such a way that is seen and heard. That and both times we have come out saying that we were not involved.

All of this is speculative for the moment but over here the prevailing idea is that both of these incidents were Indian false flags and quite a few people are pointing to the lack of videos, wreckage and damage from these areas. Especially when compared to stuff you can find on twitter regarding India's drone attack on Pakistan.

I don't know what's the end goal here, this whole stuff has gone way too murky.
 
Pakistani Information Minister on Geo News and I'm paraphrasing here:

- 29 Indian drones shot down.
- 40 Indian soldiers killed.
- Absolutely no drones struck India.
- No Pakistani jets shot down or pilots captured, says if you have them then show them.
- Pakistan shooting down Indian jets was self-defence.
- Pakistan has right to self defence according to Art 50 of UN Charter, Pakistani response is coming and will come when Pakistan chooses.
- Says India employing underhand tactics to save face from the embarrassment.
 
H_K said:
Not quite. They confirmed that with "high confidence":

a) J-10s were involved and fired missiles (not F-16s)
b) At least 2 Indian aircraft went down, including a Rafale (which we already know from OSINT)

They conclude that the 2 events are probably linked and J-10s were responsible for the kills. Whether that is actually the case or not, we don't know and they probably aren't in a position to know themselves. (It's not like they would have radar coverage over the area, and comms intercepts will merely tell them what each side is claiming, not what actually happened)
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I figure you need DCS replay level of confidence to accept Chinese tech actually work.
 

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