The potential effect of Artificial Intelligence on civilisation - a serious discussion

martinbayer said:
I really *do* hope that this is not a serious question, but I understand you're from Russia - please correct me if I'm wrong?
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This is a serious question, but I'll expand on it. Who determines what is disinformation and by what criteria? As far as I understand, the criterion is simple, we don't like it, so it's a lie/ misinformation.
And yes, I'm from Russia.
 
An old anekdote about Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan and Napoleon spirits watching a Soviet Red Square military parade from Heaven:
"If only I have such fine soldiers back then", exclaimed Alexander, "I would surely conquer all Asia!"
"If only I have such mighty weapons back then", mused Genghis Khan, "I would surely conquer all the world!"
"If only I have "Pravda" newspaper back then", grumbled Napoleon, "No one would ever knew that I lost at Waterloo"
 
Unfortunately any new invention can be used in ways which offend or corrupt. Much like the Internet today the invention of printing allowed pamphlets and posters to spread pornography and distorted accounts of everything from astronomy to witchcraft.
For most of us we go to places that amuse or inform us in ways which we agree with.
 
Dilandu said:
An old anekdote about Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan and Napoleon spirits watching a Soviet Red Square military parade from Heaven:
"If only I have such fine soldiers back then", exclaimed Alexander, "I would surely conquer all Asia!"
"If only I have such mighty weapons back then", mused Genghis Khan, "I would surely conquer all the world!"
"If only I have "Pravda" newspaper back then", grumbled Napoleon, "No one would ever knew that I lost at Waterloo"
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Hi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Moniteur_Universel

There is a delightful anecdote from the Hundred Days that captures in a nutshell the fickle nature of newspapers in early 19th Century France. It consists of headlines from the Moniteur universel, the official French government-run newspaper, reporting on Napoleon’s advance on Paris as follows:

9th March, the [Cannibal]1 has quitted his den

10th, the Corsican Ogre has landed at Cape Juan

11th, the Tiger has arrived at Gap

12th, the Monster slept at Grenoble

13th, the Tyrant has passed through Lyons

14th, the Usurper is directing his steps towards Dijon, but the brave and loyal Burgundians have risen en masse and surrounded him on all sides

18th, Bonaparte is only sixty leagues from the capital; he has been fortunate enough to escape the hands of his pursuers

19th, Bonaparte is advancing with rapid steps, but he will never enter Paris

20th, Napoleon will, tomorrow, be under our ramparts

21st, the Emperor is at Fontainebleau

22nd, His Imperial and Royal Majesty, yesterday evening, arrived at the Tuileries, amidst the joyful acclamations of his devoted and faithful subjects.2
 
paralay said:
This is a serious question, but I'll expand on it. Who determines what is disinformation and by what criteria?
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martinbayer said:
For starters, in lots of cases a solid understanding of science and logic will already provide the answer.
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One can derive from logic epistemology and the limits of knowledge.

There are different self consistent world models that can generate the output one personally observes from sense data. One can further choose between world models on criteria ranging from:
1. Probability estimated from calculation with priors
2. Utility of model in that it provides actions points to impact the future towards value goals

Note that even logically inconsistent models are not entirely useless for it can still approximate the world.

As for politics, the main issue is that just about no model generate high expected value for any political adjacent action thus it all irrelevant except for personal (fitting it, annoying other posters, social status, etc) purposes.

If reliable personal AI gets produced, the logical thing is to give it priors and have it reverse derive a worldview.
 
bobbymike said:
https://www.washingtontimes.com/new...er&utm_campaign=twtnl_x&utm_medium=SocialFlow
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In my opinion, the most dangerous version of AI is one that finds solutions that completely elude human thinking based on logic or common sense.

Bad example: to eliminate poverty once and for all, the cheapest and quickest solution is to eliminate the poor.

A good example: to obtain an FTL propulsion system it is only necessary to remove the time factor from all equations.

Absurd example: To reduce the price of manufacturing women's clothing as much as possible, use one size.

Ill-documented example: Ending Meningitis deaths will require arresting that woman
 
Break step
https://techxplore.com/news/2025-04-dynamic-generate-realistic-human-motions.html
The annotated voice
https://hackaday.com/2025/04/11/audio-effects-applied-to-text/
We can forget it for you wholesale---
https://techxplore.com/news/2025-04-tools-apple-photo-coffin-eyes.htmlYou may have seen ads by Apple promoting its new Clean Up feature that can be used to remove elements in a photo.

Not only stills--image manipulation has taken another, even more frightening step:

https://techxplore.com/news/2025-04-diminished-reality-real.htmlResearchers at the Institute of Visual Computing have made it possible to remove objects from live recordings of three-dimensional environments without time delay while the camera remains in motion.The new technology, called InpaintFusion, uses 2D inpainting as a starting point and then objects are eventually removed from a 3D scene.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFpIBQTmts4

Ten years after Dino Brugioni's death, one can still hear faint weeping coming from his sepulchre---for what is to come.
 
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"The Divergent Adaptive Production System (DAPS) has the unique integrated capability to: 1. Use AI to automatically generate fully-optimized structures and DAPS manufacturing instructions for an almost infinite range of air, land, sea, and space vehicles; 2. Additively manufacture (3D print) those optimized structures with patented alloys specific to a given application using in-house developed machines at industrial rates and competitive costs; and, 3. Automatically assemble those component structures into a vehicle using a universal assembler called the Divergent V-Cell. DAPS is TRL9 (fully commercialized) and on programs with 6 major automakers (ranging from McLaren to Mercedes), and in the past 12-18 months has been applied to the US aerospace & defense sector" ~
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https://twitter.com/x/status/1932060092599288131
View: https://x.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1932060092599288131
 
Justo Miranda said:
In my opinion, the most dangerous version of AI is one that finds solutions that completely elude human thinking based on logic or common sense.

Bad example: to eliminate poverty once and for all, the cheapest and quickest solution is to eliminate the poor.

A good example: to obtain an FTL propulsion system it is only necessary to remove the time factor from all equations.

Absurd example: To reduce the price of manufacturing women's clothing as much as possible, use one size.

Ill-documented example: Ending Meningitis deaths will require arresting that woman
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Paperclip maximizers just in several different fonts.
 
Justo Miranda said:
Hi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Moniteur_Universel

There is a delightful anecdote from the Hundred Days that captures in a nutshell the fickle nature of newspapers in early 19th Century France. It consists of headlines from the Moniteur universel, the official French government-run newspaper, reporting on Napoleon’s advance on Paris as follows:

9th March, the [Cannibal]1 has quitted his den

10th, the Corsican Ogre has landed at Cape Juan

11th, the Tiger has arrived at Gap

12th, the Monster slept at Grenoble

13th, the Tyrant has passed through Lyons

14th, the Usurper is directing his steps towards Dijon, but the brave and loyal Burgundians have risen en masse and surrounded him on all sides

18th, Bonaparte is only sixty leagues from the capital; he has been fortunate enough to escape the hands of his pursuers

19th, Bonaparte is advancing with rapid steps, but he will never enter Paris

20th, Napoleon will, tomorrow, be under our ramparts

21st, the Emperor is at Fontainebleau

22nd, His Imperial and Royal Majesty, yesterday evening, arrived at the Tuileries, amidst the joyful acclamations of his devoted and faithful subjects.2
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I, for one, welcome our Napoleon overlord.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lcUHQYhPTE
 
Archibald said:
https://www.fastcompany.com/91289861/facebook-ai-slop
Bloody heck...
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I've been fighting this f҉ ing crap on my husband's fb feed for months. At least I finally got him convinced that there are zero actual Hollywood celebrities on fb. No actual real person spins up a dozen new accounts per day and asks you to follow them to telegram.

edit: In fact I should probably sue Meta for adding another layer to my onion of cptsd scar tissue.
 
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Money is freedom, democracy is freedom, the petrol car is freedom. All that was fine when governments needed people for agriculture, for war, or for factories. By the mid-twentieth century people began to be unnecessary, and freedoms began to be criminalized by the media.

Supra-state organizations have already been trying to make physical money disappear for ten years and in Eastern dictatorships you can only pay with your mobile phone... as long as the state keeps it active. The car already depends on the electrical system and GPS, any movement or conversation that occurs inside it is recorded... for our safety.

Democracies are dying... does anyone want to write a better ending than Orwell's?
 
I didn't care to create a separate "humorous discussion" on the effect of AI on civilization so this will have to do.

View: https://youtu.be/TWpg1RmzAbc


"Slop, slop, slop, slop, slop" might just as well be the sound of us wading through this endless derivative swamp of our human imaginations. On the other hand, in this episode of "This Week Tonight", see a "Cabbage Hunk" become a real life boy in the hands of a chainsaw artist! Or in the words of John Oliver: "What a fun way to celebrate the destruction of our shared objective reality. We are f**ked!"
 
Another good example of why we maybe shouldn't rely on AI just yet.

I was trying to find a more accurate date for the order to the Fridtjof Nansen class frigates than "2000". I knew they were ordered from Navantia when it was still IZAR, so typed (note the spelling error):

"norway orders fridtjof Nansen class frigates from IZAE"

Google successfully figured out I meant IZAR, but it's AI summary caught my eye with a blatantly wrong first word and turns out to have mutually contradictory first two sentences:

No, Norway has not ordered Fridtjof Nansen class frigates from IZAR (now Navantia). The Fridtjof Nansen class frigates were built by Navantia in Spain for the Royal Norwegian Navy. However, Norway is planning to replace the existing Fridtjof Nansen class frigates and is currently in discussions with potential partners for a new frigate program.

Here's a more detailed explanation:
  • Fridtjof Nansen Class:
    The Royal Norwegian Navy currently operates five Fridtjof Nansen-class frigates, built by Navantia in Spain, with the first one entering service in 2006.
  • Replacement Program:
    Norway is planning to replace these frigates, with a decision on the replacement program expected in 2025.
  • Potential Partners:
    Norway is in discussions with France, Germany, the UK, and the US regarding a strategic partnership for the new frigates.
  • Joint Development:
    The partnership would involve joint acquisition, operation, maintenance, and upgrades of the new frigates.
  • Existing Production Line:
    Norway is also looking to potentially join an existing production line for the new frigates to limit the need for upgrades.
  • Focus on ASW:
    The primary focus of the new frigates will be anti-submarine warfare (ASW), a key capability for the Royal Norwegian Navy.
  • Delivery Timeline:
    Norway aims to have the new frigates delivered by 2029.
I corrected the spelling error to see what happened, and this time Google's AI summary was:

Yes, the Royal Norwegian Navy ordered the Fridtjof Nansen class frigates from IZAR (now Navantia). The frigates were built in Ferrol, Spain, with Lockheed Martin as a subcontractor for the integrated weapon system. The program included five frigates, with the first one launched in 2006.

Here's a more detailed breakdown:
  • Order: The Royal Norwegian Navy ordered five Fridtjof Nansen class frigates.
  • Builder: The Spanish shipbuilder IZAR (now Navantia) was the main contractor and responsible for the design and construction of the frigates.
  • Location: The frigates were built in Ferrol, Spain.
  • Integrated Weapon System: Lockheed Martin provided the integrated weapon system, including the SPY-1F radar and the AEGIS system.
  • Program Name: The project was known as the "New Frigate" program.
  • First Launch: The first frigate, named "Fridtjof Nansen," was launched in 2006.
  • Delivery: The frigates were delivered to Norway between 2006 and 2011.
  • Replaced: The Nansen class frigates replaced the Oslo class vessels, which had been in service since 1966. "
Completely different in detail, and even topic, to the first answer.

And still didn't give me the answer I was looking for. So back to doing it the old way and checking the links. Which is what I was always planning on doing, it was just that initial "No" that caught my eye and meant I didn't ignore the AI summary as usual.
 
DWG said:
"norway orders fridtjof Nansen class frigates from IZAE"

Google successfully figured out I meant IZAR, but it's AI summary caught my eye with a blatantly wrong first word and turns out to have mutually contradictory first two sentences:
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There seems to be some confusion in your statement. Norway has not ordered Fridtjof Nansen-class frigates from IZAR (formerly a Spanish shipbuilding company, now part of Navantia).
Here’s the correct information:
  1. Fridtjof Nansen-class frigates were built for the Royal Norwegian Navy by Navantia (a Spanish shipbuilder) in the 2000s.
    • A total of 5 ships were delivered between 2006 and 2011.
    • These are Aegis-equipped frigates primarily designed for anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and escort duties.
  2. IZAR (now Navantia) was involved in the construction, but Norway is not ordering new frigates of this class. Instead, Norway is currently focused on:
    • The **new F-310-class frigates (also known as the Tier 2 program), which are being developed as replacements or additions to the existing fleet.
    • Potential future orders may involve other European shipbuilders, but no recent orders have been placed with Navantia/IZAR for Fridtjof Nansen-class ships.
If you meant a different class or a new order, could you clarify? Otherwise, Norway is currently modernizing its navy with new submarines (German-designed U212CD) and possibly new frigates in the coming years.
Would you like details on Norway’s future naval plans?

(that's from Deepseek)
 
It gets better! I was trying to find the date Spain withdrew from the (1992, post NFR-90) Trilateral Frigate Collaboration, so googled: "

And what do I get:

"Spain did not withdraw from a trilateral frigate cooperation program. However, in 1995, Spain did withdraw from a trilateral frigate design project, which included Germany and the Netherlands, known as the NATO Frigate Replacement for the 1990s (NFR-90). This project aimed to develop a new class of frigates for the participating navies, but Spain ultimately decided to pursue its own design based on the Aegis combat system. The NFR-90 project ultimately failed, and the three countries went on to develop their own frigate designs.

Here's a more detailed breakdown:
  • Trilateral Frigate Cooperation:
    In the late 1980s and early 1990s, Germany, the Netherlands, and Spain were involved in a trilateral effort to design a new class of frigates, the NFR-90.
  • Spain's Departure:
    In 1995, Spain withdrew from this collaborative project.
  • Reason for Withdrawal:
    Spain decided to pursue a different path, opting to integrate the Aegis combat system into its own frigate design.
  • Resulting Programs:
    Following the withdrawal, Germany and the Netherlands continued with their own frigate development programs, while Spain moved forward with its own design and construction of the Álvaro de Bazán-class frigates.
  • NFR-90 Project Failure:
    The NFR-90 project itself ultimately failed, with the participating nations abandoning the effort and developing their own frigate designs."

    The details are correct as best I understand them, but they're the details for TFC, not NFR-90. And it's not as if there isn't a lot of stuff out there on the actual NFR-90 which could be used to cross-check this and go 'Whoops!'.
 
DWG said:
Wow, they really seem to have problems separating multiple programmes years apart.
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Apparently true. The main thing about modern AI - they don't "think" so much as "feel", and when they "feel the pattern" they follow it even if the result is logically wrong. Pretty ironic, of course; the one thing "thinking machines" turns out to be really bad at, is formal logic)
 
paralay said:
This is a serious question, but I'll expand on it. Who determines what is disinformation and by what criteria? As far as I understand, the criterion is simple, we don't like it, so it's a lie/ misinformation.
And yes, I'm from Russia.
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Interesting. So, that would be the distinction between pravda and istina ? Like someone could accept a pravda because he likes it, or because is the common norm to believe it. But everyone everywhere will accept a istina, like "water is wet".
So when an stupid IA is hallucinating and drawing me a tri engines MiG-21, that's IA pravda ?
 
Dilandu said:
the one thing "thinking machines" turns out to be really bad at, is formal logic
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Because they produce text not by logic, but by picking sequences of words not logically, but statistically most likely to follow one another. Logic needs understanding of the subject matter.

AI. Does. Not. Understand.
 
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There may come a day when a bored technician asks an AI if there is a god and the machine answers: Now it does.
 

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