How to fix USN shipbuilding

[Colonial-Marine]

Sort of a general topic here, and I hope this is the best spot for it. My question is how one would fix the miserable state that shipbuilding for the USN is in. I've got to assume commercial shipbuilding has suffered greatly as well due to many of the same conditions. It sounds like there aren't enough welders and other skilled workers, aren't enough shipyards, and most of the major programs for surface combatants in recent years have been disasters. FFG(X), now the FFG-62 Constellation class was supposed to be a relatively easy development based off an existing design. Now you hear about nothing but delays and price increases for it and it seems like the extent of the changes the Navy wants are very significant. What benefit was there with starting with something "off-the-shelf" by this point? The base FREMM class frigates seem like pretty capable ships on their own.

Then there was DDG-1000 which was supposed to incorporating all sorts of impressive new systems. But it went from an originally planned 32 hulls in the DD-21 days, down to 3, with the Advanced Gun System that was one of their purposes getting cancelled. I guess they'll be useful testbeds and platforms for those hypersonic missiles, but far from what was originally envisioned. So now we're back to building Burkes. Flight III improvements aside there are a few areas in which the design is a bit dated. And then there were the many issues with the whole LCS program. Or all of the problems with the CVN-78 class even though in a general sense it is an evolution of the CVN-68 (Nimitz) class.

DDG(X) is still something around 8 years out from the first one which seems like an absurdly long timeline. Programs for a larger surface combatant perhaps deserving of the cruiser term are consistently cancelled.

Seems like an absolute mess to me. Where does someone even begin addressing it all?

 

[Desertfox]

Simple, pay workers more.

 

[Dilandu]

First of all, do NOT order ships before project is completed.

Second, do NOT allow Navy to change already approved project after it was ordered - at least without Congressional specific approval & good justification.

Third, order a single prototype first. Test it, and only order a series AFTER you are satisfied with prototype performance.

 

[yeetmahboi]

Sipbuilding in the US is simply unprofitable for large yards. At least for small and mid size builders they have a commercial sector to fall upon. So does the Koreans. The Chinese yards is building so much because their navy is expanding, so no boom-bust cycle in sight.

It's a bad mess, really.

 

[Lc89]

The Jones act.

 

[Dilandu]

The Chinese yards is building so much because their navy is expanding, so no boom-bust cycle in sight.

They also have the largest commercial shipbuilding sector in the world, and also they started to export their warships quite efficiently. Pakistan ordered four Type 054A frigates from China in 2017, and all four were delivered by mid-2023.

 

[yeetmahboi]

They also have the largest commercial shipbuilding sector in the world, and also they started to export their warships quite efficiently. Pakistan ordered four Type 054A frigates from China in 2017, and all four were delivered by mid-2023.

Exactly. Their large yards can rely on commercial orders to keep the money flow. Essentially the same situation as the Korean yards.

 

[Yellow Palace]

The Jones act.

Hasn't worked for the last century, won't make a difference now.

Simple, pay workers more.

Not just pay, but also job security. A dwindling order book means that the workforce loses confidence in actually having a job after the next ship. Once those workers get into a job that pays them more and which has a future, good luck getting them back.

That's also a standard cause of technical problems: when you lose the skilled designers and engineers, you can't design new ships. That caused the Royal Navy huge problems from the 1920s onwards.

The resulting long design and build cycles then mean that technology moves on, the customer demands changes, and it's all delayed even more.

 

[Lc89]

Hasn't worked for the last century, won't make a difference now.

Not just pay, but also job security. A dwindling order book means that the workforce loses confidence in actually having a job after the next ship. Once those workers get into a job that pays them more and which has a future, good luck getting them back.

That's also a standard cause of technical problems: when you lose the skilled designers and engineers, you can't design new ships. That caused the Royal Navy huge problems from the 1920s onwards.

The resulting long design and build cycles then mean that technology moves on, the customer demands changes, and it's all delayed even more.

In the sense that this law ended up destroying US shipyards instead of preserving them. If there were no US Navy and Coast Guard, these shipyards would have closed long ago. China is also fearsome because it has a huge merchant marine, with civilian ships built in the same shipyards where they build PLAN ships. South Korea has built ships for the Philippine Navy. Since ships built in US shipyards are more expensive than those built in Asia (and here cheap labor only matters for China, not Japan, South Korea and Taiwan), the United States could not want to build so many ships for an allied country. If American shipyards were like those in Korea or Europe, they would be able to build diesel electric submarines not for their own navy, but to export to allies.

 

[Hood]

If American shipyards were like those in Korea or Europe, they would be able to build diesel electric submarines not for their own navy, but to export to allies.

Agreed, in theory the US should have picked up a large slice of the world export market in warships. Instead its sold lots of systems like Mk.41, missiles and SPY radars for overseas shipuilders to fit, but none of that has fed back into the domestic shipbuilding industry.
On the other side of the coin, a lot of nations want to preserve their national warship building capability so this may have been unavoidable anyway to some extent, but certainly there is a tier of well-off nations without domestic shipbuilding capabilities that could have been attracted to buy US ships from US builders.

 

[TinWing]

Agreed, in theory the US should have picked up a large slice of the world export market in warships. Instead its sold lots of systems like Mk.41, missiles and SPY radars for overseas shipuilders to fit, but none of that has fed back into the domestic shipbuilding industry.
On the other side of the coin, a lot of nations want to preserve their national warship building capability so this may have been unavoidable anyway to some extent, but certainly there is a tier of well-off nations without domestic shipbuilding capabilities that could have been attracted to buy US ships from US builders.

There's a lot more profit for contractors, and better value for the tax payer and society in general, in concentrating on the high value systems for export while leaving the actual metalwork of shipbuilding to experienced foreigners.

There is absolutely nothing to recommend American shipyards or their workforces. We recently had workers sabotaging welds in naval vessels for crying out loud. Having actually seen our shipyards, I'm horrified by how backward the industry has become. It's reached the point where even the yards themselves are in the wrong areas demographically. Skilled welders and electricians desperately don't want to move to Connecticutt and advertising at NASCAR races won't change that. Moreover, the best skilled tradesman can do better by working for themselves or in the building trades than to move away from their families to become union shift workers. Remember how the Moscow building boom lured the skilled Russian shipyard workers away? The same is true in our society. Sure, you could launch apprenticeship and vocational programs targeting disadvantaged urban youths in Connecticutt and surrounding states. Sadly, the truly capable ones would just move south as soon as they were fully qualified as electricians, plumbers and welders.

 

[TinWing]

In the sense that this law ended up destroying US shipyards instead of preserving them. If there were no US Navy and Coast Guard, these shipyards would have closed long ago. China is also fearsome because it has a huge merchant marine, with civilian ships built in the same shipyards where they build PLAN ships. South Korea has built ships for the Philippine Navy. Since ships built in US shipyards are more expensive than those built in Asia (and here cheap labor only matters for China, not Japan, South Korea and Taiwan), the United States could not want to build so many ships for an allied country. If American shipyards were like those in Korea or Europe, they would be able to build diesel electric submarines not for their own navy, but to export to allies.

As I recollect, the Germans have lost a lot of money building diesel submarines for export and the general state of their shipbuilding sector has become very poor indeed. It's worth noting that the German Navy's F126 class was designed in the Netherland and hulls are building in Romania. In the future, Germany will be competing for submarine export orders with countries like South Korea and even Turkey for orders. Even as far as South Korea, I'm shocked how they've lost marketshare to China in area such as cranes to offload containers ships. Shipbuilding isn't an easy or immensely lucrative business.

 

[Hood]

It's reached the point where even the yards themselves are in the wrong areas demographically.

Shipyards have the snag of having to be near the coast. And if your coastal areas are economically backward then you do have a problem. Much the same in the UK, the majority of major coastal areas are either terribly run down (Barrow-in-Furness might be one of the few places on earth capable of building nuclear subs but it is a slum town in most senses of the word in a remote spot of the country well off the beaten track).

Shipbuilding has always been associated with the working class heavy industry, whereas aerospace has moved more middle class in perception I would say but shipbuilding hasn't really upgraded its public image alongside the increasing sophistication of the job.

Then again MBDA is currently advertising on Spotify for recruits so that hardly inspires confidence...

As I recollect, the Germans have lost a lot of money building diesel submarines for export and the general state of their shipbuilding sector has become very poor indeed. It's worth noting that the German Navy's F126 class was designed in the Netherland and hulls are building in Romania.

Germany has lost its way indeed. But then I think that the big mergers and corporatisation of the European industry in the 2000s didn't really help. It outsourced construction to cheaper Eastern European labour sources but that is not sustainable forever.

 

[jsport]

Shipyards have the snag of having to be near the coast. And if your coastal areas are economically backward then you do have a problem. Much the same in the UK, the majority of major coastal areas are either terribly run down (Barrow-in-Furness might be one of the few places on earth capable of building nuclear subs but it is a slum town in most senses of the word in a remote spot of the country well off the beaten track).

Shipbuilding has always been associated with the working class heavy industry, whereas aerospace has moved more middle class in perception I would say but shipbuilding hasn't really upgraded its public image alongside the increasing sophistication of the job.

In addition to a rejuvenated British Army, English 'want- to- be' TikTok influencers turn baristas need to be induced into Shipyard slums to 'compose' optionally manned, composite, ocean going multi-missile, catamaran, semi-submersible/speedboats. just enough mix of medium industry & artistry to make pride of purpose & place.

 

[Apophenia]

In addition to a rejuvenated British Army, English 'want- to- be' TikTok influencers turn baristas need to be induced into Shipyard slums ...

Not sure what that has to do with fixing USN shipbuilding but, yeah, I can definitely see inducing under-employed English hipsters to flock to Barrow-in-Furness in Cumbria - The Guardian's "capital of blue-collar Britain" ...

 

[yeetmahboi]

Trump addressed the shipbuilding industry today. Wonder how much he would devote to fixing this problem.

 

[Halcyon66]

The fact that a "tik Tocker" can make huge sums from sitting at home doing nothing other than posting their dog dancing has up ended all industries.

No one wants to be an apprentice anymore in any segment, I truly don't think many want to actually learn anything other than optimizing hits.

Regards,

 

[jsport]

Trump announces new White House shipbuilding office - Breaking Defense

"To boost our defense industrial base, we are also going to resurrect the American shipbuilding industry, including commercial shipbuilding and military shipbuilding,” President Donald Trump told lawmakers during a joint session of Congress.

breakingdefense.com

 

[jsport]

Trump addressed the shipbuilding industry today. Wonder how much he would devote to fixing this problem.

SECNAV nominee says he'll bring 'urgency' to Navy's shipbuilding - Breaking Defense

"We're just going along and everybody — it's Kumbaya," Phelan said of the Navy's shipbuilding record. "It's almost as if you're waiting for a crisis to happen to ignite things. And I think in the business of warfare, that's a dangerous place to be."

breakingdefense.com