Want to work in defense

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Well, I don't know if this is appropriate for the forum here or not.
I have worked in automotive engineering for 21 years and I want to leave automotive and Detroit and work in defense or aerospace. Over the last 20 years I have watched one incapable engineer after the next get promoted despite being incompetent because they are a politically correct class of person. Pay over 20 years has fallen every year by virtue of companies taking away pensions and NEVER giving out even meager 2% cost of living increases and then tell us to be grateful for even having the privilege of having a job. I watch American college kids not get jobs because there is a flood of h1b Indian visa workers to hire.
Is it possible for automotive guy in Detroit to make such a drastic jump in careers? I have been applying to jobs around the country but I have yet to even get a call about a job. I am a physicist by degree, have nearly completed the requirements for a 2nd BS in computer science and I have taken advanced math coursework as a post bachelors student, even now while all colleges are basically all online i am taking classes again. Automotive sucks! When I was in school auto engineers made great livings and could afford to live in suburban Detroit and have a weekend cottage in northern Michigan. Those days are long gone. If you even try to change jobs here you will get told by human resources people and recruiters with a smile that you have to take a pay cut to work for a different company.
 
Here in Europe it is normal to expect a pay-raise when you change from job to job, because people believe that you have learned something in your previous job that will contribute in the new job.
Don't get fooled by HR, they don't work for you.
I think some defense jobs require a security-clearance, use that to get in touch with some people working in a company, ask questions, go do some networking.
Networking is a great way to get into a company.
Good luck,

Rob
 
It may depend on what you are currently doing in automotive. Some things will carry over easier than others.

Aerospace/defense is a fickle field right now (well, it always is, just more so these days); my employer laid a bunch of people off in late 2019 and a whole bunch more in mid 2020--but now we have 100+ positions open, mostly in engineering. I've looked at other places and they were hiring like mad, then someone turned off the switch in August. They're back hiring like crazy again, at every site but the one I'm interested in. Most of aerospace has been crushed by Covid and there are probably tens of thousands of people (from engineering, to mechanics, to assembly line workers) looking for jobs. Competition is stiff and will probably remain so for a while.
 
BAROBA said:
I think some defense jobs require a security-clearance, use that to get in touch with some people working in a company, ask questions, go do some networking.
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This puts the cart before the horse, sadly. You cannot get a clearance on your own, you have to have an employer sponsor you to get one.
 
When you think about it, the very expression "human resource(s)" is a little scary.

Humans are not a resource like electricity, oil, or tools, damn it... ! I'm reminded of Dilbert whacky crazy HR (was it catbert or dogbert ?)
 
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Archibald said:
When you think about it, the very expression "human resource(s)" is a little scary.

Humans are not a resource like elctricity, oil, or tools, damn it... ! I'm reminded of Dilbert whacky crazy HR (was it catbert or dogbert ?)
Click to expand...
I do remember meeting some kinda of typical Soylent Green HR manager , telling "you know I'm here for the good of the employees..."
 
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galgot said:
Archibald said:
When you think about it, the very expression "human resource(s)" is a little scary.

Humans are not a resource like elctricity, oil, or tools, damn it... ! I'm reminded of Dilbert whacky crazy HR (was it catbert or dogbert ?)
Click to expand...
I do remember meeting some kinda of typical Soylent Green HR managers , telling "you know I'm here for the good of the employees..."
Click to expand...

ROTFL "Human resource is people !" "I ate a human resource liver with fava beans, and a nice chianti ...fpfpfpfpfpfpppppp...!"
 
So like 3 days ago I got a call from a recruiter to work for a defense company in Michigan (sadly Michigan). They were looking for someone with program management experience like I have in automotive managing suppliers as they develop electrical components.

I was really stoked. They said it was just a low security clearance job and would only take a month to get cleared which me being a geek would have no issues preventing that. It would even be a pay raise... Wow scary!

But then they dissapeared.

I thought it was exciting for that one day getting three calls all from different parts of the country but all from the same lady.

Alas it was fun while it lasted.
 
rooster said:
They said it was just a low security clearance job and would only take a month to get cleared which me being a geek would have no issues preventing that.
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Geekhood is irrelevant to gaining your security clearance - Ed Snowden is definitely a geek, but I don't see anyone renewing his security clearance anytime soon.
 
Resurrecting this thread because I have a very similar desire to work in the software side of defense / aerospace.

I've worked as a software developer for 4 years now at a certain university (first job out of grad school). Our work has primarily been writing access management related applications for the University and it's attached hospital. As such, my job duties is full stack development on the .NET framework. In the past, I've done about 2 years worth of work as a research assistant, doing mostly data analysis and machine learning modeling with python & related libraries. I've got zero prior experience writing embedded stuff or lower level code and I also have had zero experience in engineering or aerospace beyond just... reading what people write here. I'd gladly DM out a resume too if that helps you get a better idea of what kind of experience I've had up to this point.

I started preparing about a year ago, and I've picked up C++ and am now doing some math review, but I'm not really sure what else I should be doing to prepare. I don't know how much things in defense / aerospace needs non-embedded software devs or people who don't have an aerospace degree.

I enjoy studying, but I want to plot a workable path forward that isn't something completely out of my league (like self studying to be an aerospace engineer or something) but even that I don't know if it's practical or not. I'm hoping that with 5 years of self study and a few select university courses, I can get my foot in the door. If anyone has any suggestions / pointers / non sensitive info for what kind of positions I should be looking at, or what kind of tools and materials I need to self study, or even books and study material suggestions, I'd very very much appreciate it.
 
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rooster said:
Well, I don't know if this is appropriate for the forum here or not.
I have worked in automotive engineering for 21 years and I want to leave automotive and Detroit and work in defense or aerospace. Over the last 20 years I have watched one incapable engineer after the next get promoted despite being incompetent because they are a politically correct class of person. Pay over 20 years has fallen every year by virtue of companies taking away pensions and NEVER giving out even meager 2% cost of living increases and then tell us to be grateful for even having the privilege of having a job. I watch American college kids not get jobs because there is a flood of h1b Indian visa workers to hire.
Is it possible for automotive guy in Detroit to make such a drastic jump in careers? I have been applying to jobs around the country but I have yet to even get a call about a job. I am a physicist by degree, have nearly completed the requirements for a 2nd BS in computer science and I have taken advanced math coursework as a post bachelors student, even now while all colleges are basically all online i am taking classes again. Automotive sucks! When I was in school auto engineers made great livings and could afford to live in suburban Detroit and have a weekend cottage in northern Michigan. Those days are long gone. If you even try to change jobs here you will get told by human resources people and recruiters with a smile that you have to take a pay cut to work for a different company.
Click to expand...
This is going to sound brutal and cold, but it's the honest truth as I've seen it. I spent 42 years in the defense aerospace industry and if you think you'll avoid the exact same problems you've seen in the auto industry, I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed. Nepotism is rampant. Senior executives set company strategies based on what enriches them with high stock dividends in the short term, apparently caring very little about how crippling those strategies might be for long-term company viability. Older employees are shunned and urged out the door by increasingly young managers with little relevant experience, in ways that have been court-tested for legality despite laws against age discrimination. Fresh inexperienced young people ("because that's where innovation can be found") are hired to take their places, where they're given benefits and advancements far beyond anything they can actually earn until they get some experience under their belts. Don't forget that their mantra is "fake it till you make it" and then ask yourself whether you'd have much faith in the products they design and build for whatever company you want to work for.
So I'm genuinely said to say this, but my experience in both Civil Service and private industry tells me that unfortunately someone your age with no direct experience in aerospace is going to find it difficult to fit in, unless you're willing to hire in for something comparable to what someone half your age is going to be offered. I sure hope I'm wrong though, and I wish you the very best luck!
 
Reddington777 said:
Resurrecting this thread because I have a very similar desire to work in the software side of defense / aerospace.

I've worked as a software developer for 4 years now at a certain university (first job out of grad school). Our work has primarily been writing access management related applications for the University and it's attached hospital. As such, my job duties is full stack development on the .NET framework. In the past, I've done about 2 years worth of work as a research assistant, doing mostly data analysis and machine learning modeling with python & related libraries. I've got zero prior experience writing embedded stuff or lower level code and I also have had zero experience in engineering or aerospace beyond just... reading what people write here. I'd gladly DM out a resume too if that helps you get a better idea of what kind of experience I've had up to this point.

I started preparing about a year ago, and I've picked up C++ and am now doing some math review, but I'm not really sure what else I should be doing to prepare. I don't know how much things in defense / aerospace needs non-embedded software devs or people who don't have an aerospace degree.

I enjoy studying, but I want to plot a workable path forward that isn't something completely out of my league (like self studying to be an aerospace engineer or something) but even that I don't know if it's practical or not. I'm hoping that with 5 years of self study and a few select university courses, I can get my foot in the door. If anyone has any suggestions / pointers / non sensitive info for what kind of positions I should be looking at, or what kind of tools and materials I need to self study, or even books and study material suggestions, I'd very very much appreciate it.
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So, first--I'm not a software developer, I'm an EE... but I work in integration so end up touching everything. (We're the end of the funnel that everyone poops into and we ultimately have to form all of these "products" into something deliverable.)

I can tell you that you're unlikely to find one single universal answer to this question. Every program does things a bit differently and every program is going to have different requirements and expectations. I'd honestly recommend just going to the vendors who work on programs you're interested in and checking their job listings. They'll generally list "basic qualifications" and "desired skills" and from those you can get a rough idea of where you stand and things you might want to focus on.

I think you've mentioned previously that you got into software because you had an interest in modding, and I think that's good. Truth be told, a lot of junior software developers struggle because they're accustomed to working on their own projects in their own little sandboxes. That's simply not how it works when supporting an existing program as there are requirements and standards and legacy concerns--sometimes you'll have to do 8 hours of research to ultimately do half an hour of work. It's just the nature of the business. The fact that you cut your teeth in modding benefits you here, because you're accustomed to working within a framework that already exists.
 
Reddington777 said:
Resurrecting this thread because I have a very similar desire to work in the software side of defense / aerospace.
[snip]
I started preparing about a year ago, and I've picked up C++ and am now doing some math review, but I'm not really sure what else I should be doing to prepare. I don't know how much things in defense / aerospace needs non-embedded software devs or people who don't have an aerospace degree.
Click to expand...
My experience is outdated now - left BAE in 2008 - and UK-based, so this may not be directly relevant. The predominant drift we saw was defence to financial, not commercial to defence, which given the financial jobs paid two to three times as much and had better perks wasn't a surprise. I don't know whether that same salary divide exists in the States.

We were an avionics house, I'm not certain anyone had an aerospace engineering degree, and the only PhD anyone had was in Chemistry. Mostly Comp Sci degrees and maths, or electronics for the hardware types, but one guy had an astrophysics degree and there were a bunch of other weird backgrounds. If you were smart, with a degree and a basic computer background we'd take you. The other group of recruits were from the college across the road with a two year HND that was tailored to our needs, they did a year at college, a year with us, then a final year at college, so it was a sort of hybrid of two and three year degrees. And while the HND was technically a lower qualification, to be honest there wasn't much difference after the first few months - during which the HND bunch were better through having already done a year with us. Our CTO came up through the HND route. Obviously this may not be typical of anywhere but BAE Rochester,

Mostly not having worked in lower level stuff/defence shouldn't* make too much difference, I worked on HUDs, Built-in-Test, flight controls and stores management systems (plus a whole bunch of tools and config management and release work) and all of them were primarily basic logic. Being comfortable with trig won't hurt if you are looking at displays work, and matrix maths as well, given 3D transforms. But even there some of it is esoteric enough - trig in radians, fixed point arithmetic, that they should expect to have to bring people up to speed. The biggest difference from commercial and entertainment work is serious testing, complete code and decision coverage to formal requirements, with the Quality teams, both internal and customer, to enforce that. It won't hurt to be familiar with the basic concepts of automated programme proving such as design by contract and programme verifiers. And of course machine learning and AI are the coming thing.

* Emphasis on the shouldn't, what the job actually needs and what management/HR claim are essential are rarely the same things.
 
DWG said:
Mostly not having worked in lower level stuff/defence shouldn't* make too much difference, I worked on HUDs, Built-in-Test, flight controls and stores management systems (plus a whole bunch of tools and config management and release work) and all of them were primarily basic logic.
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Yeah, 100% this. You end up working on whatever they throw you into.

I've heard dissatisfaction from junior employees about some of the more boring programs/projects, and I sometimes think recruiters do students a disservice by showing them all sorts of cool shit to try to reel them in. They show up thinking they're gonna work at Stark Industries and then they're reviewing 40-year-old Ada code or trying to deconstruct some piece of shit Raytheon developed 50 years ago.
 
tychosis said:
Yeah, 100% this. You end up working on whatever they throw you into.
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Our contracts literally said "and any other duties as instructed". I spent at least one day humping furniture around.

tychosis said:
I've heard dissatisfaction from junior employees about some of the more boring programs/projects, and I sometimes think recruiters do students a disservice by showing them all sorts of cool shit to try to reel them in. They show up thinking they're gonna work at Stark Industries and then they're reviewing 40-year-old Ada code or trying to deconstruct some piece of shit Raytheon developed 50 years ago.
Click to expand...
I had a trainee literally storm out of the office when we finished the first cut of a tool he and I were developing, took it to the guy we were developing it for, ran through it for him and created a list of minor changes that were needed. "What? We have to do all that again! Noooo!!!"
 
@DWG @tychosis Thank you both for your insights. This is really helpful! As long as someone is willing to hire me these days, I don't mind what they throw me into. I'd happily program toilets for a living as long as said toilet is going on an airplane.

Looks like I should just start applying then and try to learn the tools in those job descriptions
 
Reddington777 said:
@DWG @tychosis Thank you both for your insights. This is really helpful! As long as someone is willing to hire me these days, I don't mind what they throw me into. I'd happily program toilets for a living as long as said toilet is going on an airplane.

Looks like I should just start applying then and try to learn the tools in those job descriptions
Click to expand...
That's the spirit! At one point in my career back in the day of the fledgling internet, I sent out around 700 (I didn't keep an exact tally) printed application letters from Germany to aerospace (adjacent) companies across the USA, from one person outfits to behemoths like Boeing and LM. What clinched my current job though was cold calling a then Boeing plant in Downey, CA, for an interview while I was in the area. It took a while and a few fortunate coincidences, but to me the bottom line is, don't just rely on the internet - look for any, every, and all avenues to physically connect with an *actual* live person of an entity of your interest, as much as possible.
 
tychosis said:
Yeah, 100% this. You end up working on whatever they throw you into.

I've heard dissatisfaction from junior employees about some of the more boring programs/projects, and I sometimes think recruiters do students a disservice by showing them all sorts of cool shit to try to reel them in. They show up thinking they're gonna work at Stark Industries and then they're reviewing 40-year-old Ada code or trying to deconstruct some piece of shit Raytheon developed 50 years ago.
Click to expand...
Lockheed put me to work converting 30 year old Linux code (with zero pseudo-code) to Matlab..., and that was as an experienced engineer. Note I'm an Aerospace Engineer who had done zero coding work since college and had never worked with Linux before... Left as soon as I could and got a a job that closer aligned to my skillset at a national lab.
 
Reddington777 said:
As long as someone is willing to hire me these days, I don't mind what they throw me into. I'd happily program toilets for a living as long as said toilet is going on an airplane.
Click to expand...
Every contractor has mountains of technical debt hidden away, and sooner or later everyone is gonna get handed a shovel.

I will say, don't be the guy who runs from it. A lot of people want nothing to do with the really hard annoying problems and will do their best to avoid them, preferring the easy fun stuff. If you find yourself in the industry, try to find the stuff that's being neglected and become the expert at them. True, you're gonna be tagged as "that guy" forever and you'll get the call any time it comes up, but you'll also gain the trust of others.

I always called these problems a "terrarium of snakes" from this classic Pee Wee's Big Adventure scene:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf4lftVqNAk


In the scene, he runs into a burning pet shop to rescue the pets, and he keeps walking by and sneering at a big terrarium of snakes and running off to rescue cuter animals. Eventually he realizes he has to save them and runs out of the pet shop screaming and carrying them.

You gotta take care of the snakes eventually.
 
Reddington777 said:
@DWG @tychosis Thank you both for your insights. This is really helpful! As long as someone is willing to hire me these days, I don't mind what they throw me into. I'd happily program toilets for a living as long as said toilet is going on an airplane.
Click to expand...
Darth er... Program Manager Vader: "I have you now..."

Seriously though. Some time in code maintenance can be very educational if you look past the code (Embedded Pascal? really!) and learn the system functionality and other things like Hard Real-Time.

Even simulation scripting and test frameworks. And operating support equipment like bus analyzers to troubleshoot and understand when the computer is doing what you told it to do, rather than what you wanted. Kinda boring but vitally necessary for SQA and IV&V and getting that drop out the door.
 
tychosis said:
Every contractor has mountains of technical debt hidden away, and sooner or later everyone is gonna get handed a shovel.


Eventually he realizes he has to save them and runs out of the pet shop screaming and carrying them.
Click to expand...
I feel like I'm already doing some of this at my current job working between newer systems that were designed better and legacy scripts written by people with no software background that's complete cancer to work with. I quite enjoy that work, although I fully expect this to be on another level in aerospace.
martinbayer said:
It took a while and a few fortunate coincidences, but to me the bottom line is, don't just rely on the internet - look for any, every, and all avenues to physically connect with an *actual* live person of an entity of your interest, as much as possible.
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Will do. I had been borderline harassing a few USAF software dev recruiters until a certain somebody froze DoD hiring across the board. So my current bet is to work the industry contacts.
 
I would like to add more perspective four years after my original reply above...

Last month I left my (civil aerospace) employer of almost 22 years, taking a $30k pay cut and a demotion to get a job with a defense contractor because we needed to move to that new area for family/medical reasons, and that was the only interview I was able to get in over a year. At old employer my management tried desperately to keep me and find a solution, with senior VPs personally going to bat for me... but HR said "FO".

In that year, I probably applied to over 200 jobs, a few at various aerospace positions (major airline and some suppliers) but most for non-aerospace technical positions.

What I learned is that if you have anything remotely aerospace-specific in your experience, nobody else is interested in you. "Transferable skills" is a lie career coaches will talk to you about to generate false hope and keep your dollars flowing their way. You may be perfectly capable of doing that job, but HR can't think outside narrow boxes.

I would not enter the aerospace field unless you are willing to live wherever the jobs are and relocate whenever needed. Once you're in, your options for where you can work (and consequently where you can live) are drastically narrowed.
Beeare too of the golden handcuffs--OEMs in particular may pay well, but it makes things very difficult to leave because nobody else pays quite as well.

I should have listened to Mom and been a civil engineer. Pay isn't quite as good but lots more job opportunities and far fewer geographic restrictions...
 
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stever_sl said:
Senior executives set company strategies based on what enriches them with high stock dividends in the short term, apparently caring very little about how crippling those strategies might be for long-term company viability. Older employees are shunned and urged out the door
Click to expand...
Can't emphasize this one enough. Experience and knowledge no longer matter; previous employer's drive to standardize everything (procedures, work methods, etc) to such a high degree was meant to make it possible to just hire warm bodies (at any level, touch labor to engineering) and hand them a stack of papers saying "do this". Couple that with the elimination of any incentives for staying long-term (elimination of the pension, reducing the vacation increases with seniority and front-loading them for new hires, lots of new "young folks only" benefits like expanded parental leave, student loan assistance, capping higher promotion levels, eliminating vacation rollover, etc), and punitive policy changes and headcount reduction targets pitched as "focusing on employee retention" (yeah, focusing the magnifying glass...) and you get a ton of really good people leaving.
 
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Reddington777 said:
@DWG @tychosis Thank you both for your insights. This is really helpful! As long as someone is willing to hire me these days, I don't mind what they throw me into. I'd happily program toilets for a living as long as said toilet is going on an airplane.

Looks like I should just start applying then and try to learn the tools in those job descriptions
Click to expand...
Be careful what you wish for. A program I am on was on hiatus for a couple years while the customer digested the test articles we'd delivered. In the meantime, I got bumped over to a program to design a "tank". I never really elaborated to the Mrs about it, but she figured, since my main program was for the Marines, it must be a TANK and had apparently mentioned how cool it was to her friends. "Nah, honey. Not that kind of tank. It's the kind of tank where blue ice is born and goes on an airplane". :D
 
DWG said:
I had a trainee literally storm out of the office when we finished the first cut of a tool he and I were developing, took it to the guy we were developing it for, ran through it for him and created a list of minor changes that were needed. "What? We have to do all that again! Noooo!!!"
Click to expand...

I
DWG said:
I had a trainee literally storm out of the office when we finished the first cut of a tool he and I were developing, took it to the guy we were developing it for, ran through it for him and created a list of minor changes that were needed. "What? We have to do all that again! Noooo!!!"
Click to expand...

I think this is a very common reaction, he surly learned, that the second round took less time than the first attempt. I had (and have) several students and young engineers working for me, partially by doing design works. In the beginning, the focus is more on how to model something than how to make it work. They all reacted more or less the way you described it, when they had to redesign it, so I made them clear that this is a totally normal process. You optimize the design of the components in countless iterations untill the whole mashine (in my case mainly engines) is a harmonious design.

Honestly, I can remember that I had a 15 h job during my studies and my first task was modeling the flanges of a gear system for a truck engine. Of course, everytime I wanted to continue my work on another day, the positions have changed and I had to start all over again. I wasn't so enthusiastic either, but you get used to it. Now, I know, the effort for modeling a part is almost neglegtable compared to the time thinking about the best solution and finetuning every edge.
 
As someone who has spent some 20+yrs in the Aerospace/Defence industry following serving in the military, I would also suggest people looking at getting into the industry not just focus on opportunities with the 'big boys' such as the Boeing's, LMs, BAES etc etc. Also look to some of the sub-tier players such as small to medium subcontractors who do work for the primes/OEMs. You will still be working on some interesting stuff but may find you get further in a smaller player than with a big one.
 
GTX said:
... in the Aerospace/Defence industry following serving in the military...
Click to expand...

For those aspiring to careers in defence industries without prior military service, joining your country's Reserves will also add to your résumé while potentially providing you with relevant, real world experience.
 
GTX said:
Also look to some of the sub-tier players such as small to medium subcontractors who do work for the primes/OEMs. You will still be working on some interesting stuff but may find you get further in a smaller player than with a big one.
Click to expand...
And you may find yourself less pigeonholed in aerospace should you need to get out.
 
gtg947h said:
Can't emphasize this one enough. Experience and knowledge no longer matter; previous employer's drive to standardize everything (procedures, work methods, etc) to such a high degree was meant to make it possible to just hire warm bodies (at any level, touch labor to engineering) and hand them a stack of papers saying "do this". Couple that with the elimination of any incentives for staying long-term (elimination of the pension, reducing the vacation increases with seniority and front-loading them for new hires, lots of new "young folks only" benefits like expanded parental leave, student loan assistance, capping higher promotion levels, eliminating vacation rollover, etc), and punitive policy changes and headcount reduction targets pitched as "focusing on employee retention" (yeah, focusing the magnifying glass...) and you get a ton of really good people leaving.
Click to expand...
On the plus side, I was fed up with my job and ready to retire. My employer wanted to get rid of us older higher-paid people anyway, so I suggested to my boss that the Company offer a voluntary layoff, just like a regular one except the people themselves would actually punch the button. It went up the chain, it found favor, and as soon as it was put in place I grabbed it. Result: They gave me 6 months of pay to stay home and never go to work again. Ideal! I got what I wanted, they got what they wanted. :)
 
rooster said:
Well, I don't know if this is appropriate for the forum here or not.
I have worked in automotive engineering for 21 years and I want to leave automotive and Detroit and work in defense or aerospace. Over the last 20 years I have watched one incapable engineer after the next get promoted despite being incompetent because they are a politically correct class of person. Pay over 20 years has fallen every year by virtue of companies taking away pensions and NEVER giving out even meager 2% cost of living increases and then tell us to be grateful for even having the privilege of having a job. I watch American college kids not get jobs because there is a flood of h1b Indian visa workers to hire.
Is it possible for automotive guy in Detroit to make such a drastic jump in careers? I have been applying to jobs around the country but I have yet to even get a call about a job. I am a physicist by degree, have nearly completed the requirements for a 2nd BS in computer science and I have taken advanced math coursework as a post bachelors student, even now while all colleges are basically all online i am taking classes again. Automotive sucks! When I was in school auto engineers made great livings and could afford to live in suburban Detroit and have a weekend cottage in northern Michigan. Those days are long gone. If you even try to change jobs here you will get told by human resources people and recruiters with a smile that you have to take a pay cut to work for a different company.
Click to expand...
Someone else mentioned that a fair number of aerospace jobs require a security clearance (all of mine did) and that raises an interesting point. The work that requires one is work that can't be outsourced overseas. That's an increasingly rare thing these days. So compared to the automotive industry, that sliver of the aerospace world does offer enhanced job security, at least as long as the projects last. Something positive for a change! :)
 
stever_sl said:
Someone else mentioned that a fair number of aerospace jobs require a security clearance (all of mine did) and that raises an interesting point. The work that requires one is work that can't be outsourced overseas. That's an increasingly rare thing these days. So compared to the automotive industry, that sliver of the aerospace world does offer enhanced job security, at least as long as the projects last. Something positive for a change! :)
Click to expand...
I think ITAR is probably an even bigger barrier to the US offshoring defence jobs. BAE Rochester did the F-14 DFCS, and HUDs for everything through to F-22 quite happily, but the US flight controls work seemed to be pulled back to the US - never quite worked out if that was intra-company politics with Rochester now reporting through BAE Systems North America and having to compete with the US divisions for who put bids in, or ITAR. There's plenty of scope for ITAR to make offshoring US work that isn't especially highly classified difficult or economically non-viable (which I always felt was ITAR's main purpose).
 
DWG said:
I think ITAR is probably an even bigger barrier to the US offshoring defence jobs. BAE Rochester did the F-14 DFCS, and HUDs for everything through to F-22 quite happily, but the US flight controls work seemed to be pulled back to the US - never quite worked out if that was intra-company politics with Rochester now reporting through BAE Systems North America and having to compete with the US divisions for who put bids in, or ITAR. There's plenty of scope for ITAR to make offshoring US work that isn't especially highly classified difficult or economically non-viable (which I always felt was ITAR's main purpose).
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The weird thing about ITAR is that basically the State Department relies on the companies to police themselves. If you want to get a ruling from State, there's a process, but it's cumbersome and awkward. And of course the guidelines are a bit murky to begin with.
 

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