Finally made the career jump into aerospace

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rooster

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After many years toiling away in the hum drum boring world of automotive engineering I made it into aerospace. I wanted to work in aerospace since I graduated from college many years ago. Every day in wake up I'm excited to go work and work in what I'm working on and learn something new and make a contribution. It's kind of eye opening to see how things are done and to be working on things i used to only read about. What's astonishing to me is how the vast majority of people treat it just as an ordinary job waiting till quitting time.... So in that way it's rather similar to working in cars. Its just no big deal it seems to most people. I will say that unlike automotive the people are super smart. Automotive will hire anyone... But these people are the smartest of the smart. When I got the news, I wanted to ask if they were sure they wanted me.
 
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GTX said:
Deleted cynical and discouraging posts. @rooster - congratulations the career change. Don't let others hold you back or try to discourage you. Follow your dreams!
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Nothing can ever go wrong. A good engineer never considers downsides. It's all rainbows and unicorns from here.
 
If people have had bad experiences and are bitter/cynical about their own lives than that is no excuse to pull others down or to dampen their enthusiasm. To do is not showing realism it is just bad form. If you can't offer anything constructive and supportive than you are better off just saying nothing. Life is what you make of it so what's the point of focussing on the negative.
 
GTX said:
If people have had bad experiences and are bitter/cynical about their own lives than that is no excuse to pull others down or to dampen their enthusiasm. To do is now showing realism it is just bad form. If you can't offer anything constructive and supportive than you are better off just saying nothing. Life is what you make of it so what's the point of focussing on the negative.
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Well said.
 
I dinnae think so.
 
GTX said:
If people have had bad experiences and are bitter/cynical about their own lives than that is no excuse to pull others down or to dampen their enthusiasm. To do is not showing realism it is just bad form. If you can't offer anything constructive and supportive than you are better off just saying nothing. Life is what you make of it so what's the point of focussing on the negative.
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"Let's ignore the negative because there's no value to it." That sounds like management material right there.

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Congrats! As someone who only got to work with the industry, envious of the enthusiam of the teams, I can appreciate your excitement.
 
yasotay said:
Congrats! As someone who only got to work with the industry, envious of the enthusiam of the teams, I can appreciate your excitement.
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I can totally understand the "negative" comments and appreciate them. I dont even see them as negative.... That's my personality.

I can't say what I do and who I work for various reasons I'm sure are obvious. But its so cool to be around stuff I only ever read about.

There are a lot of parallels to automotive but that's expected no matter what industry you work in. So yeah I see why to a lot that its just a job or a stepping stone to something else. But mostly its the differences that i thus far enjoy.

One thing I'm adjusting to is you practically have to badge into everything but the coffee room so they watch everything you do.

I am a newbie and wet behind the ears so hopefully in the long run I enjoy this more is all I can hope for.

There seems to be more freedom here in this business to do things differently if you can justify it. In automotive thinking out of the box (and I worked at 2 of the big 3) will get you funny looks and not so funny comments. "you want to change the 30 year old dfmea document.... We need to talk."
 
Congrats Rooster! I know what you're talking about with regard to the people who take it just as a job. I was always shocked how few people were airplane nuts like me when studying aeronautical engineering, LOL. I thought everyone who went into aero would know the difference between a 747 and a B-52 or be able to tell an F-14 from an F-15. But, no, not so much. I hope you have a great time.
 
rooster said:
yasotay said:
Congrats! As someone who only got to work with the industry, envious of the enthusiam of the teams, I can appreciate your excitement.
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I can totally understand the "negative" comments and appreciate them. I dont even see them as negative....
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That's because they weren't. How many young adults/teenagers are thrilled when they get their first car/ they are right to be. And the adults around them, people who have been around cars for many years and have built up experience and wisdom, will provide warnings of things to watch out for. Everything from "don't forget to fill the tank" to "don't drive like a moron." Only a fool would ignore that wisdom or see it as needlessly cynical. It's *needfully* cynical.

If you want real, solid engineering advice: don't let the bastards grind you down. And there will be bastards. The automotive industry has to sell its product to the general public; the aerospace industry largely to the *government.* While you can't escape governmental meddling and red tape no matter what you do, when they are the bulk of your income, they *dominate.* And boy howdy do they love to dominate, everything from taxes to regulations on what to build, how, buying from whom, for how much. And now all the DIE nonsense and all the rest, tinkering at the micron level. Learn to embrace the suck. Read you some Lovecraft.

Also: yes, failure is the *heart* of good engineering. How strong is that new structural material? You don't test to "it survived to XYZ pounds, so it's fine," you test it till it breaks. THAT'S how you learn. Proper engineering is filled with things snapping, corroding, bursting into flames, exploding. THAT'S HOW IT'S DONE, BABY! Learn how to appreciate the "negative," to understand failure modes. Be the guy who can look at a design and say "this bit right here... this is where it'll fail first..." and be right. They'll hate you for it... and they'll find you indispensable, if you have the office politics chops.

hahahah-burn.gif
 
Orionblamblam said:
rooster said:
yasotay said:
Congrats! As someone who only got to work with the industry, envious of the enthusiam of the teams, I can appreciate your excitement.
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I can totally understand the "negative" comments and appreciate them. I dont even see them as negative....
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That's because they weren't. How many young adults/teenagers are thrilled when they get their first car/ they are right to be. And the adults around them, people who have been around cars for many years and have built up experience and wisdom, will provide warnings of things to watch out for. Everything from "don't forget to fill the tank" to "don't drive like a moron." Only a fool would ignore that wisdom or see it as needlessly cynical. It's *needfully* cynical.

If you want real, solid engineering advice: don't let the bastards grind you down. And there will be bastards. The automotive industry has to sell its product to the general public; the aerospace industry largely to the *government.* While you can't escape governmental meddling and red tape no matter what you do, when they are the bulk of your income, they *dominate.* And boy howdy do they love to dominate, everything from taxes to regulations on what to build, how, buying from whom, for how much. And now all the DIE nonsense and all the rest, tinkering at the micron level. Learn to embrace the suck. Read you some Lovecraft.

Also: yes, failure is the *heart* of good engineering. How strong is that new structural material? You don't test to "it survived to XYZ pounds, so it's fine," you test it till it breaks. THAT'S how you learn. Proper engineering is filled with things snapping, corroding, bursting into flames, exploding. THAT'S HOW IT'S DONE, BABY! Learn how to appreciate the "negative," to understand failure modes. Be the guy who can look at a design and say "this bit right here... this is where it'll fail first..." and be right. They'll hate you for it... and they'll find you indispensable, if you have the office politics chops.

hahahah-burn.gif
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?????? OR ?????!!?????
 
I met a few people just getting started in aerospace. They were excited but due to very understandable security concerns about their work, could only mention a few things. I've read about engineers in the 1950s who could only tell their families they worked for the military. That's it.
 
Orionblamblam said:
edwest3 said:
?????? OR ?????!!?????
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"Or" what? Or... let the bastards grind you down? Or... ignore failure modes and ultimate tensile strength and safety regs and the experiences of those who came before? "Or" is unclear.
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"grind you down"? What kind of sick, twisted, hellfire world do you live in? And don't focus on the negative again or I will taunt you a second time.
 
edwest3 said:
The "real" or "my version." Always look at the not bright side of life...
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Damn straight. You ignore the dark side at your peril. And often at the peril of others. Ans if you are an engineer, the peril of *lots* of others. You end up building bridges like the one at Florida International University.

The wisest approach is almost always the middle one... neither wallowing in the darkness like some angsty teenage edgelord nor living among rainbow-farting unicorns. But the middle approach pays close attention to *both* sides. You anticipate problems, not to be able to say "see I told you so" when it all comes crashing down, but to avoid the thing in the first place. *THAT* is the best advice for someone setting off on a new adventure: pay attention. Look for the warning signs. Accept that things can and will go wrong (*especially* if you are doing something new in engineering). But you have to know about them in the first place.
 
Well, certainly not words of wisdom. What motivates people to get jobs in engineering? Failure? Their own and those around them? I lived through a time period where the United States was a "can do" country that could solve its problems. I work at a job that requires me to have this attitude every day. Whatever the problem, I can find a solution. The U.S. embarked on a program to put a man on the moon by the end of the 1960s and did it. That inspires people. That motivates people. Not - watch out for that object falling on your head! Problems come and go. Teamwork solves problems. Good and right attitudes solve problems. On the battlefield, men die around you but you move on. For the sake of the mission. For the sake of your country. We speak against that at our peril.
 
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sferrin said:
"Let's ignore the negative because there's no value to it." That sounds like management material right there.

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Utter garbage and totally missing the point. I am not saying that when doing engineering (or any work for that matter) in the Aerospace (or again, any field for that matter) one ignores the risks and potentially negative consequences. But that is on the actual job at hand not the overall career choice. There is a difference between being negative about life and careers in general and being cognisant of negative consequences of the job one is doing. There is also a difference between being negative about your own experiences and then pulling others down to your level. As I said earlier, to do the latter is just poor form. One can be both optimistic and realistic at the same time and also supportive of others - to do so makes you the helpful and supportive. If everyone was bombarded by negative reactions upon entering a career path or considering it then very quickly no-one would want to take that path.

BTW, I also state my position on this having trained and worked as an engineer in both the mining industry (originally) before transitioning to the aerospace/defence sector over 25yrs ago. I therefore have worked in very dangerous arenas where people can die or be seriously injured if bad decisions or mistakes are made. I have personally known a number of people who have died or been seriously injured over the years, often in very gruesome ways, so am very cognisant of what can happen. I have also had bad bosses and bad experiences myself and days I wish never happened. That said, I also take a stoic approach to such and indeed try to embrace the concept of Amor fati - "love of one's fate". To do otherwise serves no purpose and simply makes your life and those around you miserable.

Through all of this, I still find it to be better to encourage and praise someone who takes the leap to follow their dreams. Far better to say "Good on you. Go for it!" than comments such as "My condolences". If you want to impart the benefits of your experiences (good and bad) then maybe take the mature approach of something along the lines of "Good on you...if I may offer you some benefits of my experience to avoid pitfalls/risks such as..." or "Good on you...if I may offer you some benefits of my experience to do the following that will set you up better such as...". Far more constructive and helpful than cynical ones such as "don't let the bastards grind you down".

Your choice but I would think members of this forum would be wanting to encourage rather than discourage people from entering the aerospace sector as a career...
 
Orionblamblam said:
edwest3 said:
. Whatever the problem, I can find a solution.
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Maybe. Do you think you - or anyone - can succeed if they *ignore* risks and complications?

On the battlefield, men die around you...
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Ah. So you *do* recognize that things can and will go wrong.
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People succeed because they press on, regardless of risks or complications.

As opposed to "wallowing in the darkness like some angsty teenage edgelord" IF you ever went through such a phase, please do not post about it.
 
edwest3 said:
People succeed because they press on, regardless of risks or complications.
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The only ones who succeed are those who are clear-eyed about risks and complications.

There are problems and obstacles in *any* endeavor. Why do you suspect you - or Rooster, or anyone - will do better with ignorance?
 
Orionblamblam said:
edwest3 said:
People succeed because they press on, regardless of risks or complications.
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The only ones who succeed are those who are clear-eyed about risks and complications.

There are problems and obstacles in *any* endeavor. Why do you suspect you - or Rooster, or anyone - will do better with ignorance?
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In engineering, and real life, risks can appear and get mitigated and complications studied and resolved. Parents don't have children and plan for scarlet fever or some other health threat. They want their children to be happy and healthy. Back to engineering, and this is happening across industries, the veterans provide guidance to those coming in. Being given a ton to read and review can help but seeing actual people in action, dealing with problems, solving them and moving on inspires. Not some "artificial intelligence" something or other. Human beings helping other human beings. The thought builds among those newly hired that *this is how it's done. People learn by seeing other people going through the process when, and if, some problem comes up. A good squad leader and good team leader have very similar qualities: they are there as part of a team, the leader of the team, and they work to motivate the men under their command by showing them the way.

Your "ignorance" comment insults the intelligence of people who should know, to some degree, what working in aerospace entails. Again, people don't plan for their children contracting a serious illness or getting into a car accident. The same in aerospace - especially today. A lot can be modeled, a lot of data has been archived. When the actual article moves out of the wind tunnel and at its first flight, all involved know the risks. The work had been checked multiple times. The best that can be hoped for is a high confidence with minor problems as opposed to a crash and the loss of the pilot.
 
Orionblamblam said:
edwest3 said:
people don't plan for their children contracting a serious illness or getting into a car accident.
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The insurance industry would like a word.
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They most certainly would not in this case. Even with insurance, parents do not want to see their children suffer, especially in the case of some life-threatening illness or condition. Losing a limb is still just as bad with or without insurance. And too many in the U.S. lack health insurance. Back to engineering. Those who are motivated and educated likely have some previous knowledge of aerospace, of the challenges they face and like new recruits entering combat, they and their coworkers, along with team leaders, all work toward one goal: the success of the project regardless of setbacks and other unplanned/unexpected incidents. To overcome these obstacles with good, workable ideas.
 
edwest3 said:
Even with insurance, parents do not want to see their children suffer, especially in the case of some life-threatening illness or condition.
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This, I think, is the heart of your misunderstanding of this whole debate. Nobody *wants* failure, or bureaucratic burdens, or bad bosses or economic downturns or leaky fuel tanks or hail damage. But want 'em or not, they're going to happen. Nobody profits from not planning for such things.
 
Orionblamblam said:
edwest3 said:
Even with insurance, parents do not want to see their children suffer, especially in the case of some life-threatening illness or condition.
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This, I think, is the heart of your misunderstanding of this whole debate. Nobody *wants* failure, or bureaucratic burdens, or bad bosses or economic downturns or leaky fuel tanks or hail damage. But want 'em or not, they're going to happen. Nobody profits from not planning for such things.
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So, you've gone to a more reasoned position but still flawed. In engineering, there are no plans for something going wrong. It happens. The engine is shut down, the fuel leak is located, the likely culprit is named. Defective part? Vibration? Bad or damaged wiring? Then steps are taken: get a good part, protect the wiring or install different wiring to withstand whatever conditions caused it to short, etc. It is an ongoing process. No one is standing around, doing nothing, waiting for something to fail or malfunction. And no plans can be made in anticipation of any one particular failure or problem
 
edwest3 said:
So, you've gone to a more reasoned position ...
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My position remains exactly the same. Bad stuff will happen. Prepare.

. In engineering, there are no plans for something going wrong.
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orly_owl.jpg


So all those test plans with contingencies, all those technical manuals and flight manuals that tell you what to do when this or that system fails or kerplodes... I guess they don't exist. All those test plans that I wrote and worked from when I tested experimental rocket propellants, plans that includes fat sections on what the procedures were when any of a number of things failed? Pure fiction I guess.

Engineering Aspects of Contingency​

Definition​

The engineering aspects of contingency involve planning for, and coordinating the technical response to, contingency when loss of service in one member subsystem can have knock-on effects across the underlying infrastructure.

And one example of bajillions of flight manuals:
CF-100 emergency procedures.jpg
 
Good for you. I scrub toilets and get yelled at by people who don’t want to follow rules. I wish I was in your shoes everyday. Go make yourself proud!
 
Every industry and every workplace has its specific challenges and the same generic issues every organization struggles with, and aerospace is no different in that respect.

There will be good managers and bad ones, supportive and toxic workplace cultures. Every individual has a part to play in creating a good workplace environment. If you can help change your immediate teams behaviors, you can also influence all the other teams you work with.

I read this somewhere and it made some sense to me.

If you go to work one day and meet a guy being an asshole, he's probably being an asshole.
If you go to work every day and everyone you meet is an asshole, you're probably being the asshole.
 
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When I was a kid...I thought metal meant indestructable. Engineers I imagine look at everything as jello or matchsticks...and seeing programs killed might cause caution to turn dour. But those folk's personalities can make them better. Those with OCD can get that line of Aaron Sorkin just right. The most chipper become salesmen and recruiters. I try to be the happy warrior. Maybe I suggest something dumb-it gets savaged..no biggie..and I keep pitching. We all have roles.
 
overscan (PaulMM) said:
Every industry and every workplace has its specific challenges and the same generic issues every organization struggles with, and aerospace is no different in that respect.
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A common issue with aerospace is that it naturally attracts those who want to Fly Real Fast, or Conquer The Universe. People who saw Star Trek and thought to themselves "I want to make that happen." And aerospace engineering *is* just exactly the field to do that. Where the problem occurs... actual progress in aerospace is so expensive that for generations it has not been seen as profitable for the private sector on its own, and government naturally does not *want* to blaze new frontiers. So people who want X go into a field run by people who want Not X, and have the power to make Not X happen. This is enough to sow considerable dismay.

With SpaceX and others, this sort of thing *might* be starting to change. But it will be a long time, with some currently unforseeable technological advancements required, before the conquest of space is accessible on the level that would allow lone prospectors and families to just buy a wagon and hightail it for the frontier. So we've got generations of people who can see what they want, but simply cannot get there. Of course aerospace is also full of people for whom it's just a paycheck, and they're perfectly happy to not see progress from one decade to the next. In many ways those people might be the lucky ones... happy and satisfied rather than frustrated on a scale of entire careers.

If you go to work every day and everyone you meet is an asshole, you're probably being the asshole.
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A notion of limited accuracy. If *you* think everyone is an asshole... sure, it might be just you. If *everybody* thinks *everybody* are assholes, then chances are good everybody is an asshole. Imagine, for example, you work in a prison.
 
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