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Author Topic: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Durandal  (Read 15672 times)

Offline Archibald

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SNCASE (Sud-Est) Durandal
« on: June 07, 2006, 11:01:50 am »
Built by a public firm, the Durandal would have been the only serious competitor to the Mirage III (the Breguet sirocco remained paper bound, and the Trident II was rocket-powered)
It even flew 8 months before the Mirage III (April 1956 Vs Novemeber) and had the same performances (mach 1.5 whithout rocket, Mach 1.8 with rocket, mach 2 with the future Atar 9)

Sadly, the SNCASE was the weak firm, and merged with another firm, ending Durandal development in Spring 1957.
I searched data about two durandal derivatives
- the durandal IV (mach2 with the Atar 9)
- the durandal M (for the Aeronavale)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 07:23:34 am by Stargazer2006 »
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Durandal
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2006, 01:49:05 pm »
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fighter/se212.html

Pictures, drawing, article (in Russian) of the original Durandal.
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Offline Jemiba

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Durandal
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2006, 01:06:41 pm »
Here's what I've found in Cunys "Les Avions De Combat Francais" about Durandal
derivatives and follow-on projects  :
- the Durandal IV
- the Durandal IVM (navalized)
- a version with the Atar M-23, high wing, lateral intakes and a skid undercarriage
- and the SE X-222, the ultimate development of the Durandal
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Archibald

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Durandal
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2006, 01:03:32 am »
Jemiba, that's fantastic!! Exactly what I hopped... I wanted this book for my birthday one month ago, but they send me the book about... Vought  :'( >:( I will try again :p
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Offline Archibald

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Durandal
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2006, 01:08:53 am »
What the hell is the Atar M-23 ? Something related to the super-Atar of 1958 (9 to 12 tons of thrust, I also search data about this engine  ;)
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Offline Jemiba

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Durandal
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2006, 11:57:52 am »
It would have had 4500 kgp (?) thrust and the design should have been
capable of Mach 1.3 and an altitude of 18,000 m without an additional
rocket engine. That's all I could find, although maybe it is mentioned
in regard with other designs, too.
It's a shame, but reading french still is quite difficult for me. But it's getting
better. Today I know, it's a pity, that I was more interested in reading
comics during my french lessons at school, than to try to learn. And I
know, it's nearly useless, to tell it to my kids  .... ::)
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline elmayerle

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Durandal
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2006, 03:44:07 pm »
I found the design evolution interesting.  Especially the change in inlets as the performance increased.  Mind you, it's what I'd expect given the relative efficiencies and regimes of efficiency for the different inlets.  *smile*  I can't help but think of a different approach being taken and Durandal derivatives with a F-16-style inlet (much as the Vought V1100 derived from the Crusader) or the fully-variable inlet that was studied for an advanced F-16.

Anyone have ideas in how to model this in 1/72?  I'm thinking that a 1/72 crusader nose and inlet would be too big, perhaps use a 1/100 one?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2006, 05:59:41 pm by elmayerle »

Offline Sentinel Chicken

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Durandal
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2006, 09:40:44 pm »
or the fully-variable inlet that was studied for an advanced F-16.
Oh, now see, you can't just say that without going into MORE detail, Evan!

Offline elmayerle

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Durandal
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2006, 10:51:43 pm »
or the fully-variable inlet that was studied for an advanced F-16.
Oh, now see, you can't just say that without going into MORE detail, Evan!

If memory serves me - I don't have the AIAA paper in front of me - it was a wide and narrow 2-D inlet with the forward portion on the bottom.  I keep wanting to build a F-16XL model with it and replace the standard vertical tail with the proposed all-moving one that used a standard F-16 horizontal tail.

Offline Archibald

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Durandal
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2006, 11:23:18 pm »
I thought that the Durandal IV would have had the Atar-9 of 6000kgp to reach mach-2, because the Mirage III followed the same path.
The III-01 from november 1956 had the Atar-101 (4500kgp) but the III-A from may 1958 had the Atar-9C.
Elmayerle, there's no model at all of the durandal  :-[
Considering the basic durandal design, with a frontal air-intake ala
 F-100 I had imagined that a radome would have been necessary...(exactly like on the F-86D and F-100I designs)
Dassault was more wise and draw the Mirage III directly with side air-intakes.
I think I will make a durandal IV model to complete my breguet 1120 after all both were competitor for the Aeronavale.

Any drawings about the Mirage V (the naval proposal of 1956, not the well-known Mirage III derivative)
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Offline Jemiba

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Durandal
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2006, 02:19:08 am »
Mirage V, navalized III ...
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Archibald

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Durandal
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2006, 04:09:40 am »
Bloody hell!!! This Mirage III has a TAIL !!!  :o :o :o
Thanks for the drawing, Jemiba !!!!
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Offline Archibald

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Durandal
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2006, 04:11:57 am »
 ;) and the fuselage/ tail combo looks like a Super Etendard...nice machine!!!
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Offline TinWing

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Durandal
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2006, 09:28:44 am »
Bloody hell!!! This Mirage III has a TAIL !!!  :o :o :o


It also appears to have leading edge slats - just like the Mirage 2000 that actually appeared over 20 years later.

I can't be sure, but I wonder if wing sweep was slightly decreased, as it was for the later Mirage 2000?

Offline Archibald

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Re: SNCASE (Sud-Est) Durandal
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2006, 10:41:08 am »
When one knows that the landing speed of a "pure-delta" Mirage III is something like 200kt, we can understand better why Dassault added a tail and leading edge slat.. the same thing for forward vision at high AoA... a delta without FBW is not compatible with a carrier...
Apparentky there was two naval Mirage III this early project
(Mirage V) and a standard Mirage III with a tail hook (Mirage IIIM). I thought they were the same...
I'm seeking datas about the navalised Mirage F-1 prototype, the F-1M which flew in the 70's but was rejected in favor of the Super Etendard  ??? ??? ??? ???
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