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Author Topic: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet  (Read 11089 times)

Offline kaiserd

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #120 on: November 18, 2017, 11:10:13 am »
You know what, I actually do question whether a Franco-German Euro-Canard replacement would work for the UK.

BAE just fired thousands of people because they have a shortage of future work. They and many others want the UK Government to commit to a Typhoon replacement programme now, not in 10 years time when it suits the above players.

That means BAE developing and designing technology for an aircraft to fly in 20+ years time. The potential UK Aviation Industrial Strategy cannot be based around shared technology with France (FCAS at this stage), the rest of Europe (this project) and the US (the F35 and future projects).

Although bizarrely it does seem to be coalescing around promotion of the Hawk trainer!?!

If you want to do anything about those job losses you need to sell more Typhoons and Hawks now or in the immediate past.
The UK doesn’t need a Typhoon replacement in any like the timescale that would save those jobs.
The anywhere near recent past, present and future of the UK military aviation industry is and has to in international cooperation. For example the Hawk is now essentially a joint project with India.
The UK doesn’t have the means or the will for it to be any other way.

Offline Hood

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #121 on: November 19, 2017, 02:26:59 am »
BAE Systems isn't doing anything on its own. To think otherwise is fantasy.

If you actually think how many aircraft British Aerospace and BAE Systems have actually designed themselves you'll find yourself using the fingers of one hand. Most of BAe's  products were 'legacy' types from BAC and Hawker Siddeley.
Then look at how many times BAE dumped its product lines to avoid shelling out development costs, the 125 and 146 being prime examples. Now the Hawk is almost out of life, so BAE gets India to share the costs, India wins in its 'Make in India' policy and BAE wins in getting a cheap production line if the re-winged Hawk does extend its life and gains extra customers. Once Hawk is dead BAE is out of the trainer market for good.
BAE has done much tinkering with UAVs and stealth research probably since the 1980s, but there has been little if any tangible benefits beyond what may have got into Typhoon and the F-35. Typhoon is the last remaining military aircraft link until production ends. BAE Systems doesn't really build aircraft any more, it does lucrative design work and sub-contract work. BAe might just have made the EAP into a fighter had it been forced to go it alone, but toady its impossible that Taranis could become a UK-only programme.


Offline mrmalaya

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #122 on: November 19, 2017, 02:46:27 am »
I don't say that Taranis is going to be a UK only project or that the Typhoon replacement is going to be a UK only project.

 What I do say, is that the French aren't in a hurry to replace Rafale, the Germans weren't in a hurry to get Typhoon and they will not be the first to replace it- consequently the decision to do anything other than talk about their replacement will be a long and drawn out process.

FCAS has great potential for the French and the British, in terms of actually building a stealth aircraft, development of all the sensors and communications for future aircraft and to some extent the propulsion for a Rafale upgrade.

It is also likely that the development of a UCAV will spur/inform future fighter tactics and development. Both sides have repeatedly stated that FCAS is not just about the unmanned demonstrator.

My opinion is that FCAS is enough for France for the immediate future and that any agreement with Germany is merely a place holder until something firm needs to happen.

So what the UK needs is a commitment to a project beyond building one demonstrator or talking to the US/Japan about whether we can share development with them. Turkey may yield some useful flying technology for the British to incorporate, but even their fighter is too young to allow a firm UK project initiation.

Talk of Hawk is only about keeping jobs now. We need to be able to redirect people onto something for the future and that needs action, not words.




Offline lastdingo

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #123 on: November 19, 2017, 03:39:51 am »
Being in a hurry or not - there's no reason to expect substantial quantities of operationally effective fighters from this effort before 2040. They may claim 2035, but delays will happen short of much more major conventional warfare in Europe.

What matters is how urgent the piece will be in 203x, not how urgent it is today. The early studies that are usually done for such a project don't cost terribly much, it's only reasonable to launch them now to avoid further delay. They should have started with that as the first EF came into service.

Offline LowObservable

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #124 on: November 19, 2017, 05:43:49 am »
AI + Big Data, the global technosphere, and the changing nature of international competition (think OBOR), are going to turn warfare on its head, to the extent that they have not already done so.

Autonomy, directed energy, portable electrical power and additive manufacturing will change the way that armed forces are equipped, to operate in the world outlined in the above sentence. (The previous First Sea Lord said in public in September that an autonomous SSN, achievable in a next-generation timeframe at most, would always beat a manned SSN. I was expecting Zombie Lord Nelson to materialize and beat him to a pulp with his good arm.)

Anytime we think about a clean-sheet-of-paper product, we should remember all this.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 11:55:24 am by LowObservable »

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #125 on: November 19, 2017, 09:42:54 am »
It's for those reasons that I am very dubious about the value of '5th generation' like the TFX to the UK, other than to keep BAE in work whilst we dither.

The UK has already initiated the studies for the next fighter project. BAE have been developing the AI for UAVs for most of this century and I believe this sort of lead is what will distinguish the British FCAS from it's neighbour.

They will share structural work and an engine but will they think the same?

Is there any evidence that any other potential FCAS partner has been thinking about the use of DEW and energy storage requirements , developing AI and working on LO for decades?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 09:44:48 am by mrmalaya »

Offline fightingirish

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« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 10:49:42 am by fightingirish »
Slán,
fightingirish

Slán ist an Irish Gaelic word for Goodbye.  :)

Offline muttbutt

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #127 on: April 25, 2018, 10:49:33 am »
Quote
MTU reveals next-generation fighter engine


MTU Aero Engines has revealed a new future powerplant for combat aircraft to be ready for fielding in the early 2030s.

Conceptual artwork of the Next European Fighter Engine, which was revealed at the ILA Airshow in Berlin. (IHS Markit/Gareth Jennings)Conceptual artwork of the Next European Fighter Engine, which was revealed at the ILA Airshow in Berlin. (IHS Markit/Gareth Jennings)

The manufacturer disclosed the Next European Fighter Engine (NEFE) in a product brochure distributed at the ILA Airshow in Berlin in late April.

As noted in the brochure, the NEFE is being developed alongside the New Fighter (NF) combat aircraft and the Next-Generation Weapon System (NGWS) as part of a wider drive to preserve European defence industrial sovereignty under the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) project.

To meet the planned 2040 in-service date of the future combat aircraft being developed by Airbus and Dassault, MTU is already engaged in defining the aircraft’s twin-engined powerplant under the direction of the German Federal Ministry of Defence (BMVg).

In developing the NEFE, MTU has to meet a number of exacting requirements that include improved thrust and lower fuel consumption over current powerplants; low development and manufacturing costs; efficient maintenance and long projectable maintenance intervals; high electrical power extraction for aircraft systems; as well as maximum robustness and reliability.

“For the next-generation engine, MTU has identified various technologies of the future, which it wants to develop further,” the brochure stated, adding that these include multi-disciplinary methods and simulations in the design of engine concepts and in the components. Additive manufacturing and the use of ‘bionic design’ also open up new possibilities, MTU said. Furthermore, new designs and new materials, such as ceramic matrix composites, reduce the weight while enabling higher engine temperatures for more power delivery.

http://www.janes.com/article/79573/ila-2018-mtu-reveals-next-generation-fighter-engine

Offline red admiral

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #128 on: April 25, 2018, 11:02:49 am »
Hmm, so "reveals" now means "done a few paper studies"...

Likewise, Airbus and Dassault "launch" fighter development with no whiff whatsoever of any government contract

Where is the money for any of this? It basically just seems to be Airbus and Dassault and MTU shouting "give me money". Good pr but little actual work.

Offline TomcatViP

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #129 on: April 25, 2018, 03:23:26 pm »
I totally agree with that. This is why it woul be good to have the actual statement from officials and not this kind of pre-digested media report.
Airbus CEO was more realistic on Tuesday (quoted on Keypub/News forum).

Quote
Airbus’s German operation is working with French warplane specialist Dassault Aviation SA on a fighter platform involving a range of aerial products, including drones and “swarms” of small aircraft, Enders said [...].
“We’re not talking about ‘a’ military aircraft,” he said in Berlin. “We’re talking about a system of military-combat airborne elements. It’s a different system.” It’s not even clear whether there will be role for a piloted plane, the CEO added, saying that depends on requirements specified by the French and German governments.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 03:28:07 pm by TomcatViP »

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #130 on: April 27, 2018, 12:46:02 pm »
Dassault will be project manager for the FCAS (same name as the French-British UCAV [dead ?] project) and the plane will be navalisable.

I have links in French,  but this link is better for a forum in British :

https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/dassault-named-leader-of-future-european-fighter.80971/

Offline red admiral

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #131 on: April 27, 2018, 01:40:24 pm »
Interesting that no other stories picked that up. The message appears to be very different whether the French or the Germans are doing the briefing. No doubt Dassault is manoeuvring to get a fait accompli before Germany can bring in more partner countries e.g. UK, Sweden, Italy, Spain...

Offline Hood

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #132 on: April 28, 2018, 02:37:06 am »
They are going to have to get more partner nations involved, if for nothing else to spread the R&D costs and reduce the unit costs. Although analysis has shown that single-nation developments like Rafale and Gripen are not necessarily more expensive than multi-national collaborations, the political will still has to be there to take on those costs.

It took three nations to fund the Tornado (844 aircraft exc. Saudi exports). For Typhoon it required four nations and only 472 out of the 1998 production contract for 620 (exc. exports) have been ordered/built. The UK has spent £22.9 billion already and perhaps as much as £37 billion by completion. Germany had spent €21.3 billion by 2004 (around €120 million unit cost, lately reduced to €90 mil), the Spanish have paid €11.7 billion (roughly resulting in €160 million per airframe).

180 Rafales out of originally 286 planned have been ordered and 150 completed so far. The total programme cost (to FY2013) was around €45.9 billion, with a unit cost of  €160.5 million (latterly €101.1 million for the F3+).

By comparison the Dutch government are spending €4.5 billion for 37 F-35s (equated to €121.6 million each) but of course the F-35 as a complete programme is far higher, more than France and Germany could sustain on their own assuming the new fighter is of equivalent (hopefully superior) standard. If France and Germany take 150 each and Spain takes 70 then it could perhaps sustain a reasonable production run. But who knows what future economics between now and 2040 will result in. In 1988 Parliament was told Eurofighter would cost £7 billion and since then £30 billion has been added to the bill!


Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #133 on: April 28, 2018, 03:58:55 am »
Interesting that no other stories picked that up. The message appears to be very different whether the French or the Germans are doing the briefing. No doubt Dassault is manoeuvring to get a fait accompli before Germany can bring in more partner countries e.g. UK, Sweden, Italy, Spain...
How bad can be these arrogant Frenchs. Not like all these kind Typhoon and F-35 builders and buyers ;D

And, of course, only Germany wants to bring in more partner countries...  ("no doubt" is the best evidence that I ever read) ::)

It seems, however, and according to German Minister Ursula von de Leyen, that France will be "leader nation" for the project :

https://www.lopinion.fr/blog/secret-defense/l-allemagne-confirme-que-france-dassault-seront-leaders-l-avion-combat-148671

But it's probably disinformation from France, once more again, like the information that as Dassault will be leader for the manned plane, Airbus will be leader for all the system of systems (with UCAV) of the project...
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 06:32:21 am by Deltafan »

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #134 on: April 28, 2018, 05:00:38 am »
180 Rafales out of originally 286 planned have been ordered and 150 completed so far. The total programme cost (to FY2013) was around €45.9 billion, with a unit cost of  €160.5 million (latterly €101.1 million for the F3+).
If Hollande wanted to stop the programme at 180, the last Military Programming Law foresees to order 30 more in 2023 (and 15 more are hoped for later).