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Author Topic: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet  (Read 33810 times)

Offline TomcatViP

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #315 on: February 11, 2019, 02:05:36 pm »
There is only one slight hiatus: Safran AeroBooster in Belgium that specializes in Low pressure compressor (booster). It does seems as if Safran head quarter swap them from their plans in favor of MTU despite their Belgian CEO recently claiming a still unused innovation in that domain (Belgian press).

Offline Trident

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #316 on: February 11, 2019, 02:29:57 pm »
From what I've been able to gather their experience is exclusively core booster stages for high-BPR civilian turbofans (low tip speed due to small diameter and fan rpm, low pressure ratio). As compressors go, it's hard to get further away from a fighter engine fan (transonic tip speed, high pressure ratio) than that.

I don't see how they could possibly match MTU's world-class references on the EJ200 LPC & HPC.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #317 on: February 11, 2019, 04:29:16 pm »
Do you know from where come the two pictures of the NGF/SCAF ?
Ministère des Armées website
https://www.defense.gouv.fr/english/actualites/articles/moteur-pour-le-systeme-de-combat-aerien-du-futur
https://www.defense.gouv.fr/english/portail-defense/issues2/plf-2019/les-materiels-missions-caracteristiques-industriels/syste-me-de-combat-ae-rien-du-futur-scaf

Quote
An entirely new engine will be developed for SCAF/FCAS by both Safran and MTU. (…) The German company will also be in charge of the low- and high-pressure compressors and the low-pressure turbine, while Safran will be responsible for the combustor, high-pressure turbine, and the afterburner

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2019-02-07/engine-partnership-announced-scaf-fcas-receives-first-contract
Thanks flateric and Trident :)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 04:51:32 pm by Deltafan »

Offline red admiral

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #318 on: February 12, 2019, 12:24:06 am »
I don't see how they could possibly match MTU's world-class references on the EJ200 LPC & HPC.

But MTU pretty much just builds those parts to print, they were designed by RR.

Offline Harrier

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #319 on: February 12, 2019, 01:15:02 am »
I don't see how they could possibly match MTU's world-class references on the EJ200 LPC & HPC.

But MTU pretty much just builds those parts to print, they were designed by RR.

And it all happened a long, long time ago...

RR Deutschland could also be a source. The compressor of the BR715 and Pearl engines stem from the same research compressors as the EJ200. Of course, it is RR, so UK ownership.  :o
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Offline galgot

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #320 on: February 12, 2019, 02:16:15 am »
 Don't worry.. Thks RR and the Queen...
::) "world class references on the EJ200 LPC & HPC" doesn't mean they are going to USE these same parts for the new engine to be build.
It mean they are going to use the experience gained from all the time building EJ200 parts to build NEW parts of their own for a NEW engine.

And if that thing ever fly one day, you'll have a good way reassuring yourself it's flying due to UK engineering expertise. So all good :)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 02:32:02 am by galgot »

Offline red admiral

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #321 on: February 12, 2019, 02:21:43 am »
And it all happened a long, long time ago...

Yes that is rather the main problem with all of this. The designers retired back in the 80s and 90s and switching things back on is really hard. At least there are some things on the civil side that can be pulled across e..g. turbomachinery, but there are still plenty of military specific technologies needed to make it work e.g. reheat, nozzles, signature control...

Offline Harrier

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #322 on: February 12, 2019, 03:04:09 am »
Plenum chamber burning!

Seriously, the big UK problem was turning off the integrated research programme that produced XG40, EJ200, RTM322, ACME etc. It was a good plan that seemed to work, but it needed continuity and clear applications.
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Offline Trident

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #323 on: February 12, 2019, 11:39:41 am »
I don't see how they could possibly match MTU's world-class references on the EJ200 LPC & HPC.

But MTU pretty much just builds those parts to print, they were designed by RR.

That's a gross oversimplification - while RR provided the template for the overall engine architecture with XG40 in addition to their parts contribution, significant proprietary technology went into MTU's share (both design & manufacturing).

Even if we accept the claim for argument's sake, subsequent compressor work on other engine projects shows that the lessons and know-how would have been thoroughly assimilated, rather than merely reproducing faithfully a design they did not fully understand. MTU went on to salvage the PW6000 with a 6-stage HPC of their own design that replaced the failed 5-stage original by P&W (that the programme was a commercial failure nonetheless was down to other factors - the entire A318 wasn't exactly a blockbuster and the delay introduced by P&W's inability to shape up their HPC further caused customers to jump ship and choose CFM). Why's that so noteworthy? The PW6000 HPC has one of the highest (quite possibly THE highest outright, in fact) average stage pressure ratios of any engine in commercial operation today. It's a very advanced piece of engineering.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/pw-moves-step-closer-to-pw6000-compressor-choice--119737/

http://tealgroup.com/images/TGCTOC/sample-wpsba2.pdf

Offline stealthflanker

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #324 on: February 13, 2019, 02:34:38 am »
So, what kind of thrust class or  any improvement we can likely expect here in engine department ?

For the record. Typical fighter engine generates about 20-43000 Lbf of thrust in reheat with about third to half of that in full-mil power.  fuel usage or SFC is usually in 0.6-0.8 range in full mil spec depending on altitude and speed. with 1-2 in afterburner.


Offline muttbutt

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #325 on: February 15, 2019, 01:25:53 am »
Just a nice image of it...


Offline galgot

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #326 on: February 15, 2019, 02:13:31 am »
Nice :)
Now that is a stubborn IFR probe  ;D

Offline FighterJock

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #327 on: February 15, 2019, 11:03:08 am »
Nice :)
Now that is a stubborn IFR probe  ;D

The IFR probe certainly does not help the overall stealth of the fighter.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #328 on: February 15, 2019, 01:14:35 pm »
Just a nice image of it...
Thanks for the drawing buttmutt :)

Online Hood

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #329 on: February 21, 2019, 05:28:58 am »
MTU haven't ruled out giving Rolls-Royce a slice of the partnership for the engine if the two FCAS programmes merge. Eyes are still on exports and unit costs, two competing programmes will reduce units and export penetration, although MTU does concede that merging is primarily a political decision. 

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/mtu-sees-benefits-from-joint-european-future-fighter-455979/