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Author Topic: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet  (Read 33064 times)

Offline Airplane

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2017, 07:32:13 am »
Typhoon is becoming antiquated?

Remember, it has a further 20+ years in service as of now, and likely more. It might be easy to dismiss this Franco-German project (actually much of Europe is incorporated in that "German" part) as purely political, but that would be to misunderstand how enthusiastic Europe is to be  united.

My opinion is that Europe will produce a successor to Typhoon and Rafale as it will also produce a UCAV, and the only question is how much of that Britain contributes to.

I would rather see the UK join with Japan on a future fighter, but has either country got the balls not to buy American?

Yes. Antiquated. I know exactly that I said and what  it infers.

Typhoon is flying radar target. It may have some slick moves at airshows, but it's fucked to use them in A2A like a lot of slick airshow maneuvers. Totally useless.

With Raptor and -35 and Pak Fa and the Chinese stuff, Typhoon is antiquated by comparison. In 13 years when PCA is allegedly going to be fielded, Typhoon will really be antiquated. I remember when Typhoon was a sketch on a napkin (figuratively). It's from a soon to be by-gone era of A2A combat. Granted the overwhelming majority of Russian equipment that Typhoon *would* see in combat is also antiquated, by today's measuring stick, and the measuring stick of what will be in 10 years, Typhoon is old.

Granted (again) there are no other stealth jets in service outside the US, but as soon as the Russians and Chinese are fielded, Typhoon is old school, baby. As is the French delta wing and the Gripen.

Europe is lagging behind the world in developing a LO aerial combat warplane. But hey, they're buying the -35 to fill that role. Hence, they will likely just work on a A2G drone with missilier capability in order to keep their engineers current and the socialist economy steaming ahead.





« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 07:35:00 am by Airplane »
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Offline galgot

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2017, 08:16:38 am »
While I agree for the most , the "socialist economy" part was funny ...
Lol, if we have a socialism here, what do you have in the US ? Feudalism ?

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2017, 10:20:59 am »
And we have to assume that all of the teen series fighters are even more antiquated, with the measuring stick apparently  being stealth only?

PCA in 13 years eh? Funny how that programme wont be effected by any form of delay and yet all others inevitably deliver years late - whether that's Typhoon, F35, or PAK-FA.

Anyway, whilst I'm glad the Typhoon gets you so excited, I think the general consensus is that although the F35 may replace things like the German Tornado or RAF T1 Typhoon, the French will replace their Rafale with a fighter (which wont be American) and the Germans likewise their Typhoon's.

Offline Airplane

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2017, 06:55:46 pm »
And we have to assume that all of the teen series fighters are even more antiquated, with the measuring stick apparently  being stealth only?

PCA in 13 years eh? Funny how that programme wont be effected by any form of delay and yet all others inevitably deliver years late - whether that's Typhoon, F35, or PAK-FA.

Anyway, whilst I'm glad the Typhoon gets you so excited, I think the general consensus is that although the F35 may replace things like the German Tornado or RAF T1 Typhoon, the French will replace their Rafale with a fighter (which wont be American) and the Germans likewise their Typhoon's.

Absolutely the teens are antiquated. What do you a call a flying radar reflector that cruises subsonically (doesn't even have speed to make up a little for not being LO) and laden with external fuel tanks? External weapons? Totally unequivocally reliant on jammer aircraft to reach a target? Even my illustrious Tomcat 21 if it had been built would be antiquated by today's standards. Yes, today's AAMs make the teens and the Europeans more effective than when they were fielded, but you know what? If the Piper I fly had 120s/meteors/9xs and was data linked to something with radar or had a good ir suite, it would be deadly as well.

Therein lies the heart of the -35. Awesome SA, awesome missiles, very low signatures, and adequate kinematics to preposition for missile release.

Honestly the only reason these planes are still relevant is because of the proliferation of other antiquated Russian equipment still flying. That's for A2A. For a2g versus a modern foes weapons,  they are dead meat. Honestly you could upgrade what's left of the flying Phantoms with aesa, slammers, 9xs and they could go toe to toe with today's teens and Europeans. I was there in the 80s when Phantoms were going against eagles and cats and the outcome was skewed to the teens, but it was still pilot versus pilot.

The page has turned. The last chapter has been written. Its a new ballgame. We are just waiting for all the new players to take to the field.

"The test of success is not what you do when your on top. Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.”
– General George S. Patton

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2017, 12:04:15 am »
Hmmm, so we are back to a slightly grumpy assertion that if it's not the F35 then it's not worth flying.

Did you know that the French defence hierarchy believe the Rafale to be good enough to stay in service until 2050? They have faith in their technology too, although I'm not sure it warrants that level of hubris either.

Offline FighterJock

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2017, 08:53:46 am »
The Rafael to keep flying until 2050?  For comparison the Typhoon's out of service date is projected to be around 2040 (or so I have read online).

Online _Del_

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2017, 12:51:59 pm »
Quote
Honestly the only reason these planes are still relevant is because of the proliferation of other antiquated Russian equipment still flying. 

So the only reason they are relevant is that nearly every other peer or near-peer is flying things on that level or worse...   Sounds pretty relevant then...

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2017, 01:50:36 pm »
I was surprised, no, gobsmacked by the idea that they could see no need to work on a replacement yet. It came from two separate sources and was tied to the concept that Dassault were quite happy to slowly upgrade the Rafale, work on exports (which is perhaps why this notion of the Rafale being relevant for decades is being promoted by the MOD and Dassault) and use FCAS as a way to develop new technology.



Offline Foo Fighter

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2017, 02:14:55 am »
Surely the BAE P 125 could be updated, or something like it.  There is a huge amount of talent in the UK and Europe so why NOT contribute to break the cartel of the US companies with their political clout.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2017, 02:51:38 am »
I think that this thread is dealing with whether or not the French can overcome the idea of Rafale being obsolescent in a couple of decades, and if they can swallow that idea, whether then will allow others to contribute to a successor.

My personal feeling is that BAE in it's many guises has been far more active in terms of technological development than Dassault or Airbus (in the fast jet/UCAV field at least) and this is why BAE is partnering with other countries to develop new aircraft and Dassault is trying to flog the Rafale.

Offline Foo Fighter

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2017, 06:39:17 am »
Perhaps we would be better off working with the Japanese companies, then selling to the EU/NATO.  If they can their collective posteriors and ego's to accept it is that or buy US equipment.

Offline Flyaway

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2017, 09:21:31 am »
Franco-German defence pact does not threaten UCAV initiative: Dassault chief

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The pact between France and Germany to develop a next-generation fighter does not threaten the Franco-British unmanned combat air vehicle project on which Dassault and BAE Systems are partnered, the French company’s chief executive insists.

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In fact, Éric Trappier believes all three countries may combine their efforts into an initiative to develop a successor to the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale, despite concerns that Brexit could leave the UK isolated from future pan-European defence programmes.

"We are still committed to the UCAV with BAE," says Trappier. "At the moment we have two very distinct roadmaps. I don’t know if they will be merged at some point."

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/franco-german-defence-pact-does-not-threaten-ucav-in-439733/

Offline dark sidius

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2017, 02:06:31 pm »
I don't know where they will find the budget for 2 projects.

Offline Triton

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2017, 03:41:32 pm »
"Airbus, Dassault vie for leadership of Franco-German fighter"
Tim Hepher

November 3, 2017

Source:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-germany-defence/airbus-dassault-vie-for-leadership-of-franco-german-fighter-idUSKBN1D31W0

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PARIS (Reuters) - With the ink barely dry on a deal between France and Germany to develop a new combat jet, Airbus and Dassault are squaring up for leadership of a project that could reshape Europe’s fragmented fighter industry.

French President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Angela Merkel unveiled the plans at a summit in July, burying past defense industry rivalries as part of efforts to tighten co-operation as Britain withdraws from the European Union.

The new combat system could involve a mixture of manned and unmanned aircraft and would eventually replace the Rafale and Eurofighter, rival jets that compete fiercely for global sales, as well as the older Panavia Tornado.

That sets the tone for co-operation between Airbus, which represents Germany and Spain in the Eurofighter consortium, and Dassault Aviation, the manufacturer of France’s Rafale.

But there has been little formal discussion yet over the shape of the project, let alone who would take the lead in development, according to industry and defense officials.

Airbus, whose mostly Germany-based defense arm makes up about a quarter of its sales, laid claim to the leading role in an op-ed article published on Friday.

“On the assumption that the necessary political will is in place, Airbus is offering to drive cooperation with its European partners and to shape this aspect of our common European future,” Dirk Hoke, chief executive of Airbus Defense & Space, wrote in Germany-based defense newsletter Griephan Briefe.

He described his company as “the lead...for a project of this nature.”

Dassault has itself offered to be the “architect” of the Franco-German project and Chief Executive Eric Trappier told Reuters recently that it would be the natural leader due to its experience in building an all-French fighter planeFrench President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Angela Merkel unveiled the plans at a summit in July, burying past defense industry rivalries as part of efforts to tighten co-operation as Britain withdraws from the European Union.

The new combat system could involve a mixture of manned and unmanned aircraft and would eventually replace the Rafale and Eurofighter, rival jets that compete fiercely for global sales, as well as the older Panavia Tornado.

That sets the tone for co-operation between Airbus, which represents Germany and Spain in the Eurofighter consortium, and Dassault Aviation, the manufacturer of France’s Rafale.

But there has been little formal discussion yet over the shape of the project, let alone who would take the lead in development, according to industry and defense officials.

Airbus, whose mostly Germany-based defense arm makes up about a quarter of its sales, laid claim to the leading role in an op-ed article published on Friday.

“On the assumption that the necessary political will is in place, Airbus is offering to drive cooperation with its European partners and to shape this aspect of our common European future,” Dirk Hoke, chief executive of Airbus Defense & Space, wrote in Germany-based defense newsletter Griephan Briefe.

He described his company as “the lead...for a project of this nature.”

Dassault has itself offered to be the “architect” of the Franco-German project and Chief Executive Eric Trappier told Reuters recently that it would be the natural leader due to its experience in building an all-French fighter plane.

Airbus’s call also appeared aimed at speeding up the project as Germany looks to U.S. rivals to meet interim fighter gaps.

Germany earlier this year asked Washington for a briefing on the Lockheed Martin (LMT.N) F-35 fighter as it gears up to replace its current fleet of fighter jets from 2025. [nL1N1K206B] It has also asked for data on Boeing’s F/A-18E/F.

Hoke said buying American could weaken the European defense industry and make it ever-more reliant on U.S. “black box” technology that is not shared with foreign operators, while injecting uncertainty into Franco-German plans for a new jet.

“An interim solution for the replacement of old fleets already appears probable. If important decisions are delayed, a stopgap of this type could take on a dimension that would cast doubt on the economic efficiency of the entire project,” he said.

France and Germany said in July they aim to come up with a roadmap by mid-2018 for jointly leading development of the new aircraft to replace their existing fleets of rival warplanes.

Dassault Aviation appears to have been caught by surprise by July’s announcement, which cut across its existing partnership with BAE Systems to build a demonstrator for an unmanned combat vehicle, called Future Combat Air System (FCAS).

Defense analysts say the French company is in a strong position to be in the driving seat from a technological point of view, having made it plain it regards BAE as its technological peer.

But at least for now, such considerations are likely to take a backseat to how the project will be funded amid tight defense budgets, an industry source said.

“It is quite normal for industrialists to claim leadership, but it is too early to talk about that,” he added.

Offline Trident

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Re: France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2017, 12:09:23 pm »
I would guess there is virtually no fighter experience on the French side of Airbus? Not that there needs to be, Dassault is after all an admirable agent to have in the game (to the extent that I would agree they should take the lead in overall concept design)!