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Author Topic: Blue Water  (Read 25421 times)

Offline starviking

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Blue Water
« on: November 30, 2006, 03:14:55 am »
Does anyone have information on the "Blue Water" tactical nuclear missile that was developed for the British Army in the 60's?

IIRC it was an English Electric design.

Starviking

Offline Sentinel Chicken

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2006, 05:21:16 pm »
I thought Blue Water was a nuclear-tipped ASM for the TSR.2?

Offline starviking

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2006, 07:22:57 pm »
I thought Blue Water was a nuclear-tipped ASM for the TSR.2?

There was a proposal to modify the Blue Water SSM for carriage on the TSR-2 as a ASM, I don't know if that reached hardware stage, I think the SSM did.

Starviking

Offline slmvbs

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2006, 01:36:39 pm »
Hi you may find these links of interest -

http://www.skomer.u-net.com/projects/bluewater.htm   - possibly the best site for british missile projects data

http://users.tpg.com.au/eedeuce/  - this site is likely to give some background to early development methods but i havent had time to check it out in full

also you may want to check ITN Source for British Pathe newsreels of the period and the following papers held at the national archive at Kew: Department of Scientific and Industrial Research: Aeronautical Research Council: Reports and Papers DSIR 23/30270
Test in 8 x 8 ft wind tunnel on a cruciform moving wing guided weapon: English Electric BLUE WATER (RAE Rep Aero 2664) .Date: 1963 and Ministry of Housing and Local Government and predecessors and successor: New Towns, General Registered Files (NT Series) HLG 116/127 Cancellation by English Electric Co of Blue Water nuclear missile project: effect on Stevenage; deputation to Minister Date: 1962.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search/quick_search.aspx






Offline starviking

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2006, 05:01:49 am »
Thanks slmvbs,

I'll start checking!

Starviking

Offline PMN1

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2010, 01:22:00 pm »
Does anyone know what the planned range of the air-launched version would have been?

Offline cardonet

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2010, 02:04:18 pm »
You may find this link of interest

http://fuseurop.univ-perp.fr/bwater_e.htm

Online RLBH

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2010, 01:35:52 pm »
Does anyone know what the planned range of the air-launched version would have been?

Obviously, this depends heavily on the launch conditions. Using the simulator in this thread and the data from cardonet's link, I get a range of approximately 125 nautical miles from a launch at 35,000 feet and Mach 0.9. I should stress, that is approximate, and varies quite considerably with the launch conditions.

Offline alertken

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2010, 04:05:45 pm »
sv: UK digested V1 (as "Menace") but chose in 1947 to abandon such things as being bereft of military purpose. In April,1957 Defence Minister Sandys, he that chopped much, having inherited a 31/5/56 intent to acquire 100 Corporal F for the British Army of the Rhine, funded a UK replacement SSM. The issue was that Corporal's W-7 warhead would be held by USArmy at Dortmund, to be trucked to the Royal Artillery if/when POTUS so determined. Sandys' SSM's warhead was to be indigenous, from the Aldermaston AWR Establishment already overloaded trying to deliver fission devices while grasping how to do fusion. Blue Fox/Indigo Hammer (6KT) was tested 9/57, intended for Blue Water, (ex-Blue Slug) Seaslug 2 SSM and Blue Envoy/Bloodhound 3 SAM. EE(GW) Stevenage was Sister Firm on Corporal, Prime Contractor on Blue Water.

On 4 August, 1958 he made the UK/US Agreement for Co-operation on Uses of Atomic Energy for Mutual Defense Purposes. That ended UK's expensive attempts at nuclear design independence. With great relief UK moved to licenced/adaptation of US designs; Indigo Hammer lapsed. Corporal would be replaced in 1962 with 100 Douglas MGR-1B Honest John, also with W-7, also with EE(GW) as Sister Firm...yet in 8/1958 Blue Water continued. From its access to US data, AWRE was to attempt a "UK" warhead, so that BAOR could deploy a replacement for Honest John, to fire at London's, not Washington's Command.

In December,1960 Skybolt, core of "independent" UK Deterrence, was chopped. PM Macmillan secured Polaris. Dual key warhead controls were to govern Bundeswehr Honest Johns, too: US urged Sperry MGM-29A Sergeant SSM on everybody to “the tune of umpteen Mn.$”; UK declined as this was “not a European rocket. It’s a racket of US industry.” Mac was disingenuous on Blue Water: “a better weapon (but in 1962 it was still paper; political pressure on European NATO Nations to take Sergeant) was irresistible (on) favourable terms more common (for) washing machines (forcing) us to cancel (10/8/62) at considerable loss.” Mac, Memoirs/VI, P335. FRG took Sergeant; BAOR kept Honest John to 1976, then deployed 60 Vought MGM-52C Lance to 1992, US warheads for all at Dortmund.

Blue Water SSM's warhead was to have been a variant within genus WE.177, whose prime manifestation was to have been as TSR.2's gravity bomb. It is not clear that schemes for an (ex-EE) BAC Blue Water ASM for TSR.2 had funding or a warhead after (or indeed before) 8/62: PMN1's range Q may not have an A based on more than a sketch. (ex-Bristol) BAC ramjet X-12 Pandora ASM did have R&D funding, but no warhead, because, despite Strategic Deterrence going sub-surface, RAF blagged funds to retain a Task for a big gravity bomb. AWRE invented fusion WE.177B (deployed 9/1966, Vulcan B.2), which delayed/deferred fission WE.177A (deployed 6/1970 RN, 2/71 RAF Buccaneers). Blue Water/WE.177 would have been yet later; a "UK" warhead derived from US data could not have been supplied by UK to any export Customer, so total production would have been an expensive run of 60-100 for BAOR. So, chop Blue Water, enjoy washing machine terms for HJ, later Lance, inter-operable with, though subservient, to Allies.

Offline Spark

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2010, 02:58:34 am »
sv: UK digested V1 (as "Menace") but chose in 1947 to abandon such things as being bereft of military purpose. In April,1957 Defence Minister Sandys, he that chopped much, having inherited a 31/5/56 intent to acquire 100 Corporal F for the British Army of the Rhine, funded a UK replacement SSM. The issue was that Corporal's W-7 warhead would be held by USArmy at Dortmund, to be trucked to the Royal Artillery if/when POTUS so determined. Sandys' SSM's warhead was to be indigenous, from the Aldermaston AWR Establishment already overloaded trying to deliver fission devices while grasping how to do fusion. Blue Fox/Indigo Hammer (6KT) was tested 9/57, intended for Blue Water, (ex-Blue Slug) Seaslug 2 SSM and Blue Envoy/Bloodhound 3 SAM. EE(GW) Stevenage was Sister Firm on Corporal, Prime Contractor on Blue Water.

On 4 August, 1958 he made the UK/US Agreement for Co-operation on Uses of Atomic Energy for Mutual Defense Purposes. That ended UK's expensive attempts at nuclear design independence. With great relief UK moved to licenced/adaptation of US designs; Indigo Hammer lapsed. Corporal would be replaced in 1962 with 100 Douglas MGR-1B Honest John, also with W-7, also with EE(GW) as Sister Firm...yet in 8/1958 Blue Water continued. From its access to US data, AWRE was to attempt a "UK" warhead, so that BAOR could deploy a replacement for Honest John, to fire at London's, not Washington's Command.

In December,1960 Skybolt, core of "independent" UK Deterrence, was chopped. PM Macmillan secured Polaris. Dual key warhead controls were to govern Bundeswehr Honest Johns, too: US urged Sperry MGM-29A Sergeant SSM on everybody to “the tune of umpteen Mn.$”; UK declined as this was “not a European rocket. It’s a racket of US industry.” Mac was disingenuous on Blue Water: “a better weapon (but in 1962 it was still paper; political pressure on European NATO Nations to take Sergeant) was irresistible (on) favourable terms more common (for) washing machines (forcing) us to cancel (10/8/62) at considerable loss.” Mac, Memoirs/VI, P335. FRG took Sergeant; BAOR kept Honest John to 1976, then deployed 60 Vought MGM-52C Lance to 1992, US warheads for all at Dortmund.

Blue Water SSM's warhead was to have been a variant within genus WE.177, whose prime manifestation was to have been as TSR.2's gravity bomb. It is not clear that schemes for an (ex-EE) BAC Blue Water ASM for TSR.2 had funding or a warhead after (or indeed before) 8/62: PMN1's range Q may not have an A based on more than a sketch. (ex-Bristol) BAC ramjet X-12 Pandora ASM did have R&D funding, but no warhead, because, despite Strategic Deterrence going sub-surface, RAF blagged funds to retain a Task for a big gravity bomb. AWRE invented fusion WE.177B (deployed 9/1966, Vulcan B.2), which delayed/deferred fission WE.177A (deployed 6/1970 RN, 2/71 RAF Buccaneers). Blue Water/WE.177 would have been yet later; a "UK" warhead derived from US data could not have been supplied by UK to any export Customer, so total production would have been an expensive run of 60-100 for BAOR. So, chop Blue Water, enjoy washing machine terms for HJ, later Lance, inter-operable with, though subservient, to Allies.

Hi
,,,,and Black Rock?

Offline alertken

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2010, 03:02:07 am »
B Rock: as Manuel said: I know nothing beyond Skomer's entry (undated SSM for Br.Army).

Offline Spark

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2010, 07:10:44 am »
B Rock: as Manuel said: I know nothing beyond Skomer's entry (undated SSM for Br.Army).
Hi alertken,
Black Rock; English Electric early field mobile nuclear tipped fast response surface to surface weapon with Westcott rocket motor and a range of 200miles. There was at least one solid propellant two stage missile proposal considered for Blue Streak this may have been an EE proposal but liquid propellants were considered best as Blue Streak always had a duality of purpose both as a missile but more important was the SLV part this certainly resulted in the EE Bristol/Westcott Delta 2 and Delta 3 work
 A lot of early UK work is still steeped in secrecy but ICI did ground breaking work in solids.
Note according to a Ministry document held at Kew Polaris was made possible because of ICI work in the field, this gives yet another twist to what we think of the history of the subject. As I understand it Black rock was started well before 54 and Blue Streak.
 May have finished with purchase of Corporal.

Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2010, 08:26:50 am »
Spark,

Are you suggesting that the Delta 2 & 3 were intended as solid fuel motors?

Offline Spark

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2010, 12:06:50 am »
Spark,

Are you suggesting that the Delta 2 & 3 were intended as solid fuel motors?

Hi sealordlawrence,

No, both were LOX/K, only that EE had a fund of large solid experiance prior to BS.

Offline uk 75

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Re: Blue Water
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2010, 02:09:22 am »
In the entry for Blue Water in British Secret Projects 4 the usual
Bedford truck launch vehicle is shown.  However, there were also
proposals to mount Blue Water on the FV 432 tracked chassis and
the Alvis Stalwart amphibious vehicle.  West Germany was a prime
potential customer, but opted for Sergeant instead.  If the Germans
had bought Blue Water they might have fitted to it to one of their
own vehicles.
Senior British Army commanders were not all enthusiastic about
battlefield nuclear weapons (Lord Carver).  Corporal was never replaced
in service, while the Honest John had to wait until Lance arrived in the 70s.
Lance was quite a compact system but short ranged.

UK 75