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Author Topic: 'Tracked' Mini Submarines in Swedish waters - 1980's  (Read 27903 times)

Offline Grey Havoc

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Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: 'Tracked' Mini Submarines in Swedish waters - 1980's
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2014, 10:47:58 am »
In relation to the incident last month (October 2014):


Sonar image of the tracks the Swedish navy found.
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Offline quellish

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Re: 'Tracked' Mini Submarines in Swedish waters - 1980's
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2014, 11:44:15 am »
I'm still wondering what the reasoning behind a tracked submersible for this type of mission would be. There would be plenty of drawbacks - unpredictable terrain and bottom composition, easy to foul or break the tracks, etc. and very few advantages that I could see.

Offline blackstar

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Re: 'Tracked' Mini Submarines in Swedish waters - 1980's
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2014, 02:09:43 pm »
I'm still wondering what the reasoning behind a tracked submersible for this type of mission would be. There would be plenty of drawbacks - unpredictable terrain and bottom composition, easy to foul or break the tracks, etc. and very few advantages that I could see.

If you're already on the bottom you cannot run aground...

Offline covert_shores

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Re: 'Tracked' Mini Submarines in Swedish waters - 1980's
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2014, 03:13:20 pm »
I think 'tracked' is misleading, it sounds too much like tank tracks. It could be wheels (like the retired NR1) or just the scraping of a keel.
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Offline Jemiba

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Re: 'Tracked' Mini Submarines in Swedish waters - 1980's
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2014, 03:14:54 am »
I'm still wondering what the reasoning behind a tracked submersible for this type of mission would be. There would be plenty of drawbacks - unpredictable terrain and bottom composition, easy to foul or break the tracks, etc. and very few advantages that I could see.

If you're already on the bottom you cannot run aground...

And, perhaps more important in shallow waters, you cannot break the surface unintentionally. For such operations,
the topograhy of the target region probably is quite well known, so moving on the ground shouldn't be a real
problem, I think and maybe it would reduce acoustic signature, too, or at least change it to an uncommon/unknown
one, that isn't quickly associated with a sub.
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Offline blackstar

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Re: 'Tracked' Mini Submarines in Swedish waters - 1980's
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2014, 03:19:13 pm »
I'm still wondering what the reasoning behind a tracked submersible for this type of mission would be. There would be plenty of drawbacks - unpredictable terrain and bottom composition, easy to foul or break the tracks, etc. and very few advantages that I could see.

If you're already on the bottom you cannot run aground...

And, perhaps more important in shallow waters, you cannot break the surface unintentionally. For such operations,
the topograhy of the target region probably is quite well known, so moving on the ground shouldn't be a real
problem, I think and maybe it would reduce acoustic signature, too, or at least change it to an uncommon/unknown
one, that isn't quickly associated with a sub.

Those are good points. I don't know anything about this, so I'm just guessing. But it could be a way of staying on the bottom while not hitting the bottom. And it may offer precision of navigation (you can stop and stay in one spot) and quieting.


Offline TomS

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Re: 'Tracked' Mini Submarines in Swedish waters - 1980's
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2014, 03:47:18 pm »
Also, if you're trying to move against a current, having traction against the bottom is a lot more energy efficient that being buoyant. 

Offline muttbutt

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Re: 'Tracked' Mini Submarines in Swedish waters - 1980's
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2014, 06:07:42 pm »
According to a translation of some Swedish coverage, they think they sub was just 10 metres long.

That's kinda small?.

Offline Jemiba

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Re: 'Tracked' Mini Submarines in Swedish waters - 1980's
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2014, 11:06:29 pm »
That's kinda small?.

But well suited for confined and shallow waters, I think. And there were other examples,
although fitteed with track for different reasons : http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5624.msg45151.html#msg45151
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Offline TomS

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Re: 'Tracked' Mini Submarines in Swedish waters - 1980's
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2014, 06:14:05 am »
According to a translation of some Swedish coverage, they think they sub was just 10 metres long.

That's kinda small?.

It's about typical for swimmer delivery vehicles or similar mini-subs carried by a larger mother ship.

Offline muttbutt

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Re: 'Tracked' Mini Submarines in Swedish waters - 1980's
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2014, 08:48:59 am »
According to a translation of some Swedish coverage, they think they sub was just 10 metres long.

That's kinda small?.

It's about typical for swimmer delivery vehicles or similar mini-subs carried by a larger mother ship.

For a wetsub (if it was a wetsub) they stayed down and on the move for quite a while :o

Might be something new.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 08:50:37 am by muttbutt »

Offline TomS

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Re: 'Tracked' Mini Submarines in Swedish waters - 1980's
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2014, 09:39:33 am »
BNot necessarily wet.  There's a Soviet DSRV that's around 13 meters, so that's in the right ballpark.  (Obviously this isn't a Deep Sumbergence application, but the scale is right.)

Offline muttbutt

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Re: 'Tracked' Mini Submarines in Swedish waters - 1980's
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2014, 11:07:54 am »
BNot necessarily wet.  There's a Soviet DSRV that's around 13 meters, so that's in the right ballpark.  (Obviously this isn't a Deep Sumbergence application, but the scale is right.)
All true. what were the old Project 865 dry minisubs length...almost 30 metres?
If this was the Russians they seem to have something they have kept under wraps.

Offline Mr London 24/7

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Re: 'Tracked' Mini Submarines in Swedish waters - 1980's
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2014, 04:39:57 am »
I think 'tracked' is misleading, it sounds too much like tank tracks. It could be wheels (like the retired NR1) or just the scraping of a keel.


With respect - I disagree.

The specific purpose of this thread was the 1980's sightings, which were specifically alleged as a Tracked (and not wheeled) vehicle. Indeed Swedish Navy/Defence Ministry termed the intruder as such themselves. Although very young in the 80's... ( ;) ) I recall grainy photo or video of the same from the time. Although there were reports of Keel imprints left on the bottom (by larger submersible(s)) I don't believe there were any of a 'Wheeled' vehicle. Therefore I would suggest the term stands.


My hope was (given the passage of time) that it might be possible (if true) to identify such a Vehicle now. Tunanders book supposed that such a vehicle may be able to 'jump' in the water column over obstacles it encountered whilst crawling the bottom. Although there are one or two example images in previous pages I would not of course propose any so far as the alleged culprit.

In regards 2014 sightings made in other Posts, my dear Grey Havoc started a better thread: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,23017.0.html 
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 04:42:56 am by Mr London 24/7 »