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Author Topic: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies  (Read 67091 times)

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« on: February 17, 2006, 12:44:55 pm »
First a whole load of concepts from 1979.

A "high mach" supersonic cruise optimised fighter

Sources:
Aviation Week & Space Technology Jan 17 1979
TsAGI Technical Briefing on ATF Program, 1984
Internet
Michael J Taylor -Jet Warplanes, The Twenty First Century
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 01:56:12 am by PaulMM (Overscan) »
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2006, 12:52:18 pm »
A "moderate Mach" supersonic cruise design
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2006, 12:57:40 pm »
A wind-tunnel model 'to investigate low zero-lift drag in supersonic flight'
« Last Edit: February 17, 2006, 12:59:27 pm by overscan »
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2006, 01:01:39 pm »
A variable-geometry design
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2006, 01:04:29 pm »
Similar to the above but canard delta. Identified as "Advanced Design Composite Aircraft", with 80% composite structure, weighing 25% less, costing 20% less and saving 30% on fuel over a conventional fighter, from Grumman advert in Flight International 2 Sept 1978.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 12:39:18 am by overscan »
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2006, 01:08:11 pm »
A rotating intake design
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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2006, 01:11:45 pm »
This design prompted some "Stealth" speculation
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2006, 01:16:45 pm »
Another rotating inlets design, this time FSW
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2006, 02:03:26 pm »
An X-29 style light FSW fighter
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2006, 02:05:23 pm »
Unknown Grumman
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 03:53:16 am by PaulMM (Overscan) »
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2006, 02:08:45 pm »
Two more FSW fighter designs, possibly later

[Higher res image added from DVIC]
« Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 12:41:41 am by overscan »
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2006, 02:11:43 pm »
The following are Grumman's  RFP submissions from 1983
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Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2006, 08:02:30 pm »
Those "TsAGI Technical Briefing on ATF Program" drawings suck. Here are better ones.
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2006, 12:35:33 am »
Thanks for those drawings, Scott. Top stuff.

The TsAGI technical bulletins I downloaded from the internet are pretty low quality, but they do nicely sum up everything that was in the open source press about US programs, including references to the source articles. For example, in here:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=111.0

I've posted the references for the ATF article, which could be useful for tracking down the original source materials.

Paul.
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Offline sferrin

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2006, 04:39:15 pm »
ISTR these were the order the companies were ranked when they narrowed it from 7 to 4

Lockheed
Northrop
General Dynamics
Boeing
McDonnell Douglas (apparently they raided Lockheed for stealth expertise)
Rockwell International & Grumman brought up the rear but I don't know the order.  As one person in the decision chain put it "We had a couple very good proposals, a few pretty good ones and the rest just didn't seem to get it."

Anyway here's a couple Grumman (probably been here before but this seems to be a good place for them so all the companies are covered)

« Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 12:36:01 am by overscan »
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Offline sferrin

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2006, 05:43:56 pm »
Identified as "Advanced Design Composite Aircraft", with 80% composite structure, weighing 25% less, costing 20% less and saving 30% on fuel over a conventional fighter, from Grumman advert in Flight International 2 Sept 1978.

Those wingtip fuel tanks remind me of spaceships from the 50s  :)
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2006, 05:48:39 pm »
So exactly happened at Grumman? Did the F-14 engineers all leave or something? Their ATF bids were pretty rubbish...
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Offline sferrin

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2006, 06:14:05 pm »
So exactly happened at Grumman? Did the F-14 engineers all leave or something? Their ATF bids were pretty rubbish...

This is just speculation on my part and not strictly speaking about Grumman but when stealth came to the forfront with the ATF it left some companies in a bind it would seem.  Lockheed of course had a lot of experience and Northrop was right there too.  Convair (General Dynamics) had experience going back to Kingfish at the least.  And those were the 1, 2, and 3 positions on the first downselect when they went from 7 to 4.   I don't know where Boeing got their stealth experience ( position 4),  supposedly McDonnell hired some Lockeed individuals away and presumably their non-competition agreements ran out (I don't know how that would apply to privilaged/classified info they had in their heads though) and they came in 5th.  AFAIK Grumman and Rockwell International have never been involved in any stealth programs which would kinda leave them out in the cold.  Looking at the Rockwell submission I'm reminded of the concepts of the day that were floating around for public consumption and that one fits right in.  As it turns out features that you typically find on stealth aircraft are nowhere to be seen.  I'm guessing Grumman and Rockwell were the ones who "just didn't get it" which is unfortunate but those are the breaks I suppose.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2006, 11:44:31 pm »
For what it's worth, I understand that Northrop's interest in "stealth" goes back to roughly 1964 when they started an in-depth look at why the Snark was so difficult to track on radar.

Offline Trident

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2006, 10:56:06 am »
So exactly happened at Grumman? Did the F-14 engineers all leave or something? Their ATF bids were pretty rubbish...

This is just speculation on my part and not strictly speaking about Grumman but when stealth came to the forfront with the ATF it left some companies in a bind it would seem.  Lockheed of course had a lot of experience and Northrop was right there too.  Convair (General Dynamics) had experience going back to Kingfish at the least.  And those were the 1, 2, and 3 positions on the first downselect when they went from 7 to 4.   I don't know where Boeing got their stealth experience ( position 4),  supposedly McDonnell hired some Lockeed individuals away and presumably their non-competition agreements ran out (I don't know how that would apply to privilaged/classified info they had in their heads though) and they came in 5th.  AFAIK Grumman and Rockwell International have never been involved in any stealth programs which would kinda leave them out in the cold.  Looking at the Rockwell submission I'm reminded of the concepts of the day that were floating around for public consumption and that one fits right in.  As it turns out features that you typically find on stealth aircraft are nowhere to be seen.  I'm guessing Grumman and Rockwell were the ones who "just didn't get it" which is unfortunate but those are the breaks I suppose.

Sounds reasonable, but wouldn't Rockwell have had a fair bit of LO experience with the B-1B?

Offline sferrin

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2006, 12:09:23 pm »
Quote

Sounds reasonable, but wouldn't Rockwell have had a fair bit of LO experience with the B-1B?

True but on on the B-1B the efforts seem to consist mainly of RAM and hiding the compressor faces which the Rockwell entry probably had but that seems to be about it.  You didn't see edge-alignment in there and I wouldn't be surprised if Lockheed's and Northrop's RAM and RAS technology were ahead of Rockwell's by a generation or two. Obviously this is all just speculation but that quote earlier about some "just not getting it" would seem to indicate that Rockwell and Grumman missed the mark completely.  Which doesn't neccessarily mean they were horrible by the standards of the day in other regards such as performance, manueverability etc. but if they came in with say an RCS of 0.001m^2 and Lockheed, Northrop, and GD were around 0.00001m^2 that's a huge difference.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 04:03:52 am by overscan »
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Offline sferrin

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2006, 07:48:31 am »
For what it's worth, I understand that Northrop's interest in "stealth" goes back to roughly 1964 when they started an in-depth look at why the Snark was so difficult to track on radar.

Maybe even earlier than that.  They'd noticed the B-49 was pretty small on the radar of the day too, particularly from head on.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2006, 10:06:53 pm »
For what it's worth, I understand that Northrop's interest in "stealth" goes back to roughly 1964 when they started an in-depth look at why the Snark was so difficult to track on radar.

Maybe even earlier than that.  They'd noticed the B-49 was pretty small on the radar of the day too, particularly from head on.

True, but all the papers and other materials I read while there indicate that the experience with the Snark was the real start of a strong interest on their part.  That matches what T.V. Jones claimed in one talk.

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2006, 11:41:13 pm »
Grumman Patent 4,569,493 (1983)

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2006, 12:24:09 am »
Just another question reagrding Grumman's pre-ATF studies !

Does anyone know anything about concepts / studies not directly related to the pre-ATF-aera ... only between F-X & FV-X and the later ATF-concepts ??   ???

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Offline consealed

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2006, 04:27:07 am »
I also think that many FX, VFX and ATF project are same category. There is no any superior parts I can seen ccompare with F-X or VFX. ???
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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2006, 12:15:41 pm »
« Last Edit: November 27, 2006, 12:25:32 pm by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2006, 11:33:34 am »
Looks pretty like this one 'High/Dive' Grumman concept
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=106.msg1208#msg1208
« Last Edit: November 30, 2006, 11:37:04 am by flateric »
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Offline Yildirim

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2006, 07:38:18 am »
Grumman lost because they little experince with stealth tech, also they had not build a Airforce fighter in years.
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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2007, 06:54:06 am »
Grumman ATF scetches by notorious Nathan Kirschbaum
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Offline flateric

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2007, 02:36:47 pm »
First three illustrations of 'The Grumman Research Fighter' (design by Nathan Kirschbaum) from
"Configuration Development of Advanced Fighters”
by Paul Bavitz, N. Kirschbaum. et al.,
AFWAL-TR-80-3142, Nov. 1980
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Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2007, 08:16:47 am »
This design prompted some "Stealth" speculation

Does anyone have any indication as to dimensions for this plane???
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Offline flateric

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2007, 10:23:30 am »
Scott, it's so much fictional as should be its sizes. I've only have seen two artist's renderings posted here. That's all.
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2007, 10:51:59 am »
Never seen it in anything official like AIAA report or suchlike, only those 2 pics in contemporary books and magazines. Looks fairly large to judge from the cockpit size. I *think* that the second pic, that flateric posted, might be of a model photographed (and built?) by Erik Simonsen for Bill Yenne's "WARPLANES OF THE 21ST CENTURY".
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 11:07:56 am by overscan »
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Offline flateric

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2007, 03:09:33 pm »
Extended version of the drawing with a tiny side view.
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Offline Deino

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2007, 11:06:04 pm »
Hey ... a future modelling project for Scott !!??

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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2007, 12:04:29 am »
Best I can do for the tiny sideview.
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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2007, 12:31:29 am »
Same project - useful simplified sketch
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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2007, 12:46:54 am »
And again
« Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 12:50:06 am by overscan »
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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2007, 01:10:07 am »
Added some additional images to the posts at the beginning of this topic.
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Offline Jemiba

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2007, 01:58:32 am »
Two pictures of Grumman concepts, that to my opinion fell into this
theme, although no relation to ATF is explicitely mentioned in the advert
and the description :
(from Aviation Week 1976 1 and 10) :
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

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Offline hesham

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #42 on: October 16, 2008, 04:50:47 am »
Hi,

I know it was from NASA sketch,but it look like Grumman pre-ATF project.
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19840010096_1984010096.pdf

Offline hesham

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2008, 04:57:44 am »
Also look like the Grumman designs,
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 04:24:21 am by hesham »

Offline Sundog

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2008, 05:51:28 pm »
Actually the design Hesham just posted reminds me alot of the McDonnell-Douglas ATS concept.

Offline elider

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2008, 02:37:09 pm »
It took me a long time to find it. This is the Grumman concept I modeled albeit withmany a guess at size etc. A book by Bill Gunston had an artist's concept of this design featured on the cover.

Offline Sundog

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #46 on: May 27, 2009, 01:28:36 pm »
Looks pretty like this one 'High/Dive' Grumman concept
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=106.msg1208#msg1208

Actually, the wind tunnel model pics you have, now that I've been reviewing this design, looks like a single tailed version of the Grumman twin tailed ATF RFP submissions shown in plan view on the first page of this thread.

Offline richter111

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2009, 11:36:00 am »
I saw most of these drawings grwoing up as a kid, and I always wondered how close to the real thing they would be.  I also remember seeing one with a hoop concept for a wing, with the fuselage going through the center.

Offline pometablava

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2009, 12:39:24 pm »
Grumman concept from a Spanish popular science magazine in the 80's

Offline flateric

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2009, 12:45:38 pm »
well, artist was presumably Spanish because of problems with national insignia placement...
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stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2009, 12:48:33 pm »
presumably ;D

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #51 on: August 01, 2009, 06:12:02 am »
Identified as STAC, Supersonic Tactical Aircraft, late 1970s study for a supercruise strike fighter.


« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 06:44:05 am by overscan »
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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #52 on: August 01, 2009, 06:13:42 am »
Identified as final configuration from CDAF (Configuration and Design of an Advanced Fighter) studies, 1978

« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 06:43:40 am by overscan »
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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #53 on: August 01, 2009, 06:30:31 am »
This is Grumman's "STOL Fighter" configuration, derived from the earlier ATTAC (Advanced Technologies for Tactical Aircraft) studies, which were ultimately derived from the CDAF configuration above. ATTAC wind tunnels models were tested by NASA with USAF participation and funding.
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Offline Talos

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #54 on: August 18, 2009, 07:04:54 am »
It took me a long time to find it. This is the Grumman concept I modeled albeit withmany a guess at size etc. A book by Bill Gunston had an artist's concept of this design featured on the cover.

I'm quite interested in this design, it's a rather neat one. Are there any schematics (particularly side views) of this floating around anywhere?

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2009, 08:40:50 am »
Identified as final configuration from CDAF (Configuration and Design of an Advanced Fighter) studies, 1978



So canards in front of the wing (all be it with a little dihedral) weren't considered an impediment to supersonic cruise. Very interesting. Quite a pretty plane too - pity about the Kitihawk type canope.

Cheers, Woody

Offline Sundog

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #56 on: February 07, 2010, 01:07:36 am »
A model of the NASA/Grumman CDF and a drawing of a CDF configuration that appears to be a development of the design studies of the earlier CDAF. The "new" design is referenced from this paper, NASA Cr-3763.

I can't tell if they're the same aircraft, because it's difficult to determine how close the wing planforms match from those angles. The model is clearly not the earlier CDAF drawings we have and it does tend to match the isometric drawing below quite well.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 01:12:17 am by Sundog »

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #57 on: September 10, 2010, 03:28:30 am »
Grumman concept from a Spanish popular science magazine in the 80's
slightly better
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Offline hesham

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #58 on: September 12, 2010, 04:08:23 am »
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 04:20:31 am by overscan »

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2010, 04:20:06 am »
Hesham, you should attach the larger version of the picture, or just put in the link.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 04:28:26 am by overscan »
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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #60 on: September 12, 2010, 04:26:49 am »

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #61 on: November 12, 2010, 02:25:52 am »
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
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Offline AeroFranz

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #62 on: November 27, 2010, 02:54:03 pm »
Looks like Nathans Kirschbaum's concept discussed on page one of this thread.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 03:13:53 am by overscan »
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« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 04:49:57 pm by flateric »
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« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 11:35:07 am by flateric »
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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #65 on: April 07, 2012, 06:14:41 am »
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 06:16:41 am by overscan »
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Offline Triton

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #66 on: April 24, 2012, 09:33:59 am »
Grumman fighter concept photograph found on eBay

Source:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/USAF-Grumman-Fighter-Concept-Photo-/280867497105?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item416501e491

Does anyone recognize this concept? USAF? STOL? ATF?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 09:38:53 am by Triton »

Offline SOC

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #67 on: April 24, 2012, 11:42:37 pm »
Looks very similar to a jet described as a Grumman ATF concept shown on page 51 of Bill Gunston's Future Fighters from 1984.

Offline Triton

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #68 on: April 25, 2012, 11:00:00 am »
Thank you, SOC. The way that the thrust is being directed is it meant to illustrate some sort of STOL scheme?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 11:05:57 am by Triton »

Offline George Allegrezza

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #69 on: April 25, 2012, 01:27:00 pm »
STOL was an early ATF requirement that was dropped before the prototype phase to save weight and money. 

Other things that fell by the wayside in that era were the supercruise speed target and integral IRST.

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #70 on: April 25, 2012, 01:46:21 pm »
Thank you for the information, George.

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #71 on: May 31, 2012, 04:43:02 pm »
Hi,


[From Soviet-era Foreign Military Review - Admin - identified as ADCA design]


http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a347373.pdf
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 11:52:24 pm by overscan »

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #72 on: June 09, 2012, 02:01:26 am »
Ok ........... I've neither heard or seen anything to do with this Grumman ADCA!!!! It must be one of the smallest Grumman fighter design I've seen in a long time (since F11F Tiger) It appears to have a lot of General Dynamics F-16 influence in it's rear fuselage design!
Would like to learn and see more  :P

Regards
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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #73 on: June 09, 2012, 11:00:26 am »
It must be one of the smallest Grumman fighter design I've seen in a long time (since F11F Tiger)

Longer than the venerable F-14 is small ?  ???

(I read the length as 21,45 meters)
 
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 11:03:18 am by Jemiba »
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Offline circle-5

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #74 on: June 29, 2012, 02:29:42 pm »
Grumman Advanced Stealthy Penetrator (GASP!) manufacturer's model, ca. 1978-1979
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 12:45:47 pm by circle-5 »

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Offline circle-5

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #76 on: June 29, 2012, 04:53:10 pm »
Thank you Grigory!  What we need here is a search engine that recognizes airframe shapes on photos and paintings.

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #77 on: October 02, 2012, 04:31:17 am »
The following are Grumman's  RFP submissions from 1983

They are actually older, and appeared in a 1981 article from AW&ST.
I have extracted the text from the article and affixed it to each picture.

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #78 on: October 04, 2012, 05:02:07 am »
More on the RFC (Research Fighter Configuration):

Quote
The Grumman Research Fighter Configuration (RFC), a joint program with NASA Langley, it had its own problems. The NTF model cost $600K and was never tested!

Source: Mason’s Perspective on the X-29

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #79 on: October 09, 2012, 09:19:33 am »
Identified as STAC, Supersonic Tactical Aircraft, late 1970s study for a supercruise strike fighter.




My dear Paul,


here is the Grumman STAC with twin tail fins;


http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19840008144_1984008144.pdf

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #80 on: October 25, 2012, 05:41:22 am »
Please note with me the changes of rear nozzle of the engines for that
Grumman ATF concept;


http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19930019976_1993019976.pdf

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #81 on: June 30, 2013, 04:20:55 pm »
It's interesting to me that out of the six ATF finalists only Grumman went it alone while the five teamed up. -SP
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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #82 on: June 30, 2013, 10:31:24 pm »
As if they had a choice? What added value could they bring to a potential teaming?

Offline donnage99

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #83 on: July 01, 2013, 07:02:47 am »
According to NASA pictures linked by Hesham, were the flatted nozzles added for stealth reason? If so, were these  the final proposal after the stealth requirement from the Air Force has been emphasized?

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #84 on: October 21, 2013, 06:55:25 pm »
A Grumman concept model for a twin-tail ATF (probably, possibly, or maybe).

Offline Sundog

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #85 on: October 21, 2013, 07:32:59 pm »
Is that your model or just a pic you found? I've been looking for detail on that design forever. All I've ever seen is the top views of the related designs in those early 80's comparison charts for ATF weight class that this in, along with designs from other manufacturers. I know that chart is on these forums somewhere as well.

Thanks for sharing. :)

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #86 on: October 21, 2013, 08:59:29 pm »
Another image (that got away from me on eBay).

Offline circle-5

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #87 on: October 21, 2013, 10:58:16 pm »
Is that your model or just a pic you found?

I WISH this was my model, but it's just a photo that is currently for sale on eBay, here.  Unless aim9xray has already snapped it up...  BTW, thank you aim9xray for identifying this Grumman concept as the G-719J.

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #88 on: November 12, 2013, 01:37:48 pm »
I don't recall if we previously identified or documented this concept. Grumman? I apologize if this has already been identified and documented.

USAF advanced fighter with canards photo found on eBay.

Source:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/USAF-Advanced-Fighter-with-Canards-Concept-Photo/281197268350?_trksid=p2045573.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D27%26meid%3D2658111646153818475%26pid%3D100033%26prg%3D1011%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D121198098178%26

Offline Triton

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #89 on: November 12, 2013, 02:40:21 pm »
Related to this General Dynamics low cost fighter circa 1981?

« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 02:47:51 pm by Triton »

Offline aim9xray

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #90 on: November 12, 2013, 07:18:56 pm »
No, it's believed to be a Grumman something-or-other pre-ATF concept.

Offline Triton

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #91 on: November 12, 2013, 07:42:51 pm »
Is this something that has already been found?

Offline Sundog

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #92 on: November 12, 2013, 10:01:27 pm »
It's a Grumman design. It's in the American Secret Projects Book.

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #93 on: November 12, 2013, 10:41:04 pm »



Looks like this 1976 Grumman ADCA concept. Photo of the above model in American Secret Projects is courtesy Allyson Vought, who is a member of the forum.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 10:45:28 pm by PaulMM (Overscan) »
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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #94 on: November 12, 2013, 10:45:03 pm »
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #95 on: November 12, 2013, 10:47:12 pm »
Ad.
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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #97 on: November 12, 2013, 11:08:54 pm »
Quote
A rather complete review of prospects for use of composite materials abroad was published in the pages of our journal in 1984,1 but recently a series of new information has appeared about foreign firms' development American firm of Grumman studied possibilities of creating a future fighter with unlimited use of composite materials under the ADCA (Advanced Design Composite Aircraft) project. The objective of the work was to study the likely cost reduction of a supersonic fighter and concomitant  weight reduction with maximum possible use of composite materials in its construction. Requirements placed on the ADCA aircraft were to ensure supersonic cruising speed, high acceleration characteristics and rate of climb, lengthy combat maneuvering at altitude at Mach 0.9, and good airfield performance. Graphite-epoxy, boron-epoxy and  graphite-boron-epoxy materials, which were sufficiently worked out and already used previously in individual components of Some aircraft constructions, were considered as possible composite materials for use.

The project of an aircraft with a take-off weight of 17.33 tons was chosen from several versions of a future supersonic fighter satisfying the requirements laid down; it was the cheapest and lightest (Fig. 1). Its acceleration time from Mach 0.8 to Mach 1.6 at an altitude of 10,000 m was 79 seconds. The take-off run with missiles on external mounts with an overall weight of 5.54 tons did not exceed 975 m. The landing run also was the same distance. The most difficult to fulfill was the requirement to ensure lengthy combat maneuvering of the designed fighter with a g-load of 3.8 at an altitude of 9,000 m and a speed corresponding to Mach 0.9. Considering that the design temperature of the aircraft skin in the most important flight regimes did not exceed 127[] Centigrade, the decision was made to use graphite-epoxy as the primary structural material, from which the following basic structural components were designed: multispar continuous wing, foreplane (all moving stabilizer), vertical tailplane (with honeycomb filler), semimonocoque fuselage with wing attachment to it on three load-bearing spars.

The foreign press notes that compared with a fighter of similar purpose and with similar technical flight characteristics but made of traditional metal alloys, wide use of composite materials substantially reduced the weight of basic structural components of the ADCA aircraft, including 28 percent in the wing, 22 percent in the JPRS-UFM-88-008 5 August 1988 32 Fig. 1. Drawings of general views of fighter being created under the ADC A program (dimensions in meters) fuselage, 23 percent in the foreplane and fin, and 20 percent in the power plant air intakes. Studies showed that a certain decrease in weight of the aircraft construction also can be achieved using the latest metal alloys,  but in this case the proportion of weight reduction does not exceed 9 percent. In addition, American specialists assert that they managed not only to design a stronger and lighter wing meeting given specifications, but also to give it new aeroelastic properties. In particular, in flight under the effect of aerodynamic forces the wing is capable of acquiring a specific twist at a certain angle close to optimum for the given flight regime without the help of controls. In this way the wing's lift/drag ratio is kept close to optimum in different flight regimes. Wings of metal construction do not have that capability. In wings made of composite materials, however, the effect of programmed aeroelasticity is achieved with consideration of a forecasting of the pairing of "flexural-torsional" strain by appropriately selecting the placement of composite material lamina of varying number and orientation along the wingspan. Foreign specialists point out three possible methods for placing composite material lamina: rotation of longitudinal lamina, unbalance of transverse lamina and rotation of the entire placement scheme. It is believed that all of them provide the requisite nature of change in wing strain in flight, but the last two methods are not recommended for use since they simultaneously lead to a reduction in the wing's torsional rigidity and consequently to a decrease in the speed where flutter appears. Calculations showed that placement of torsion box skin lamina with a 15 degree forward rotation of the lamina in the ADCA aircraft wing provides best values of wing twist and helps the aircraft achieve high maneuver characteristics. This thesis was confirmed by appropriate wind tunnel tests. A similar effect also can be achieved in a nontwisted wing, but with the help of deflection of special control surfaces, which requires an increase in aircraft weight due to the need for installing an additional system and controls. The method of controlling structural rigidity by rotating the longitudinal composite material lamina in the process of placing them in the skin (in this case by 15 degrees backward with respect to the longitudinal axis) was used in creating the fin of the ADCA aircraft. Transverse composite material lamina (90 degrees) and crossed lamina (plus or minus 45 degrees) retained their position. As a result there was a 35 percent increase in the design flutter speed and 23 percent increase in fin strength for the most critical design case. Meanwhile in the process of designing the ADCA aircraft Grumman experts proved that the simple substitution of composite materials for metal alloys in the construction may lead in the final account only to a slight decrease (around 13 percent) in its take-off weight, which is economically unjustified with consideration of the high cost of composite materials. But if the design of such an aircraft is created [sozdavatsya] in advance with consideration of features of composite materials and they are used purposefully, then its cost in the supersonic fighter version drops by 25 percent (in 1980 prices), the cost during its service life drops by 21 percent, and the take-off weight drops by 26 percent compared with a similar aircraft made of metal.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a347373.pdf
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Offline Triton

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #98 on: November 13, 2013, 02:20:50 pm »
Great!  :D  There are too many concepts, I can't remember them anymore.

Offline Triton

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #99 on: November 13, 2013, 02:35:38 pm »

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #100 on: November 13, 2013, 03:50:34 pm »
Should we merge the "Grumman ADCA (Advanced Design Composite Aircraft) fighter" topic with the "Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies" topic?

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,106.msg567.html#msg567

topics merged

« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 07:36:53 am by Jemiba »

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #101 on: April 02, 2014, 01:09:45 am »
G'day guys, I'm looking for dwgs of the twin tail version of ASL-495, can anyone help? Scott maybe?

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #102 on: May 30, 2014, 03:58:52 am »
This concept now identified as LOCI.

Quote
The Grumman LOCI, shown in Figure 8, is a low cost, forward-based, quick reaction, short-range interceptor powered by two augmented turbofans. The LOCI would be procured in sufficient quantities to gain parity with Warsaw Pact Air Forces in Central and Northern Europe. The LOCI mission involves a low-level subsonic dash and a supersonic intercept on-the-deck. The engine incorporates a thrust-reverser that provides short distance landing capabilities.

Source: AIAA Paper 1981-1503 Progress Toward a Long-Range Propulsion Plan, C.F. Baerst, R.C. Gunness,and S.W. Mitnik, Garrett Turbine Engine Co
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Offline hesham

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #103 on: August 11, 2014, 10:58:15 am »
Again from my dear Scott's site;


http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=22945


Quote
Possibly an ATF, more likely a pre-ATF concept. Looks high performance but with little effort at stealth.If the code scribbled on it means what I think it might, it may be dated 1971. In which case this would be a bit late for the F-15 program (McD was picked in 1969), and certainly doesn’t fit the F-16 profile.

Offline circle-5

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #104 on: November 22, 2014, 01:34:28 am »
1976 factory concept model of the Grumman ADCA (Advanced Design Composite Aircraft).

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #105 on: December 05, 2014, 02:15:24 pm »
Grumman pre-ATF designs from TsAGI's Tekhnicheskaya Informatsiya (No.13, 1984):

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #106 on: December 05, 2014, 05:38:56 pm »
Anybody know what the actual Grumman entry looked like?  I've seen a lot of hypotheticals but never the real deal. 
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline Sundog

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #107 on: December 05, 2014, 08:00:55 pm »
In Skyblazer's image, when they say ATF, they mean the original mid 70's requirement, not what the ATF program became in the late 80's that became the F-22. Although, I would like to see what Grumman's submission for the 80's version of the ATF was as well. I thought it was the twin tailed canard super-cruiser design, but I've never seen any confirmation of their submission.

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #108 on: December 06, 2014, 08:12:45 am »
From TsAGI's Tekhnicheskaya Informatsiya 2/1984;


I think those ATF drawings are for Grumman.

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #109 on: December 18, 2014, 06:47:21 am »

[From Soviet-era Foreign Military Review - Admin - identified as ADCA design]

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a347373.pdf


Hi,


here is a drawing to Grumman ADCA aircraft;


http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/3.58425?journalCode=ja

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #110 on: December 27, 2014, 03:29:24 am »
Hi,


here is a Grumman ATF two swing-wing concepts.


http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/3.45328?journalCode=ja

Offline RAP

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #111 on: March 07, 2015, 10:45:22 am »
Larger image of the photo posted by Triton on pg 5 of this thread.

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #112 on: January 28, 2016, 05:17:44 am »
Hi,

I have found the following paper that seems related to this topic:

" Future Tactical Fighter Requirements: A Propulsion Technology Update "

By Lind and Ervolina

abstract

This paper examines the potential roles that are emerging from current studies of future U.S. Air Force tactical fighters and analyzes their impact on the propulsion system requirements. It provides an updated review of the leading propulsion technology concepts that are the candidates in meeting such critical design challenges as supersonic cruise, stealth, STOL, as well as high maneuvering capability with a cost-efficient weapon system.

Here is the link:

http://proceedings.asmedigitalcollection.asme.org/proceeding.aspx?articleid=2280247

I also attach a 3 pages extract with some artwork and the timeline of Grumman studies

Does anybody have information of the stealth version with a dorsal intakes (beside the artwork)?

best

F_T

Offline hesham

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #113 on: January 28, 2016, 05:47:38 am »
Nice find ford,

and about stealth version,I will search.

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« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 07:44:42 pm by Sundog »

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #115 on: March 06, 2017, 05:00:35 am »
Great find my dear Sundog.

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #116 on: March 06, 2017, 05:01:29 am »
And;

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #117 on: April 22, 2017, 09:39:53 pm »
You can find paintings of the first design up thread here.

These are both from this paper.


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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #118 on: April 23, 2017, 05:32:26 am »
Great find my dear Sundog.

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #119 on: April 23, 2017, 08:14:45 am »
Great find my dear Sundog.
Ditto - amazing the number of iterations for this platform.
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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #120 on: January 27, 2018, 05:22:47 pm »
Some useful info gleaned from ADA081055 (AFFDL TR-79-3104) "Investigation of MSLPC and Crew Escape System Integration." Sept 1979.The baseline aircraft design studied was a derivative of Grumman/AFFDL Config Development of Advanced Fighters (CDAF) program. According to Grumman docs the CDAF was running parallel from mid 1977 with the earlier ATS and STAC programs. The drawing of the a/c on page 155 of the above doc (page 174 of the PDF) gives a designation of ASL-495F-007A for the baseline fighter design and ASL-495F-007LPC for the modified Low-Profile Cockpit configuration. This was based on the CDAF design of the ASL-495F-007. The larger, baseline Mach 2.0 Penetrator (page 156 of the doc/page 175 of the PDF) variant appears to be designated the ASL-495F-006. In APPENDIX E - FIGHTER APPLICATION DATA (page 201 of doc/page 220 of PDF) some additional data is burried in the CISE computer program input listing. Design mission profile is included in the listings.

Here's some additional a/c details from the listing that are not in the drawing:

Grumman ASL-495F-007A - Mach 1.6 Fighter/Attack aircraft (as of Feb 1979)
[indicates Grumman ASL-495F-007 - CDAF Mach 1.6 Fighter/Attack aircraft - data as of Nov 1978, all else is same as -007A]

Length: 56 ft (assuming fuselage, not overall)
Wing Area: 368 [365]
Wing Aspect ratio: 3.0
Wing T/C (root): 0.045
Wing leading edge sweep: 57 deg
Wing taper: 0.15
Vertical tail Area: 71 [70]
Vertical tail Aspect ratio: 1.03
Vertical tail T/C average: 0.036
Vertical tail 1/4 chord sweep: 52.8 deg
Vertical tail taper: 0.168
Canard Area: 57 [56]
Canard Aspect ratio: 2.68
Canard T/C average: 0.036
Canard 1/4 chord sweep: 46.7 deg
Canard taper: 0.160

Max Mach speed: 1.90
SL max Mach speed: 1.20
Ultimate Load Factor: 9.8g
Takeoff distance (ground run): 925 ft
Takeoff wing loading: 65.6 lb/ft2 [65.7 lb/ft2]
Takeoff T/W: 1.027 [1.028]
Landing stall speed: 117 knot [118 knot]
Landing distance (ground run): 1065 ft
Total thrust SLS (max A/B): 24791 lb [24625 lb]

Empty weight: 15589 lb [15492 lb]
Stores: 1000 lb
Takeoff weight: 24128 lb [23944 lb]
Combat weight: 22805 lb [22630 lb]

Propulsion: 2 x CDAF study-YJ18 (?) turbofan with A/B

I didnt include the Mach 2.0 Penetrator data - I didnt want to burden forum thread members with info they might already have.

Cheers.

« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 06:51:28 pm by asiscan »

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 12:52:39 am by PaulMM (Overscan) »
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #122 on: January 27, 2018, 11:49:45 pm »
NASA Contractor Report 3763 A Wing Concept for Supersonic Maneuvering W H Mason
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Re: Grumman Pre-ATF & ATF Studies
« Reply #123 on: December 04, 2018, 05:25:59 am »