Vickers (Supermarine) Type 583 / 583V / 584 VG fighter family

uk 75

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
3,735
Reaction score
2,706
In the book "Project Cancelled" there is a tantalizing picture of an exhibition of BAC projects staged in 1964 focussing on swing wing designs, notably the Lightning VG. However, there is also a shot of a row of models of swing wing derivatives of TSR 2 with what appear to be various weapon loadings (The models seem to be the standard 1:48 display type).

I have tried reconciling these models with the info in the Buttler books and the articles on this site and others, but they seem to be closer to the original TSR 2 in appearance. Has anyone seen a bigger photo (there is a photo of a single VG model in Buttler, but it does not match either the drawings in the book or the models in Project Cancelled). I suspect there is more info out there either in model or document form.

UK 75
 

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,598
Reaction score
7,603
Flying Review from 1964 Paris Airshow says BAC put on a display of VG models including VG Lightnings, perhaps that is the exhibition you mean? Unfortunately they include no pics, and my copy of Project Cancelled is the 1975 edition without this picture.
 

uk 75

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
3,735
Reaction score
2,706
I realise this has already been on other threads, but I have a specific question?

In the Tony Buttler books and "Project Cancelled", as well as the Air International article "Polymath.." from the 70s there are a range of drawings and models of the two distinct versions of the BAC 583 proposal.

The first shows a TSR 2 style aircraft with Swing Wings and an indistinct vertical jet.

The second is like a swing wing Harrier with Harrier style nozzles.

Has anyone out there got clearer, better drawings or shots of the models not in the above sources (I ask because occasionally BAC brochures seem to be appearing at Book Fares and Plane Fares)? The drawings in Buttler don't quite match the Air International models. Fortunately, the BAC 584 single seater is really well covered.

UK 75
 

elmayerle

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
1,438
Reaction score
312
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

Well, the one with the Harrier-like appearance is the one I've seen referred to as the 583V and was powered by a BS100 engine. There were several variations of the Type 583 studied, which accounts for the different depictions.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,598
Reaction score
7,603
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

Yes, you have to distinguish between Type 583 (conventional, VG) and Type 583V (V/STOL, VG).

Here's a drawing of the earlier Type 583 design with intake cones mentioned but not illustrated in Tony Buttler's Secret Projects: British Jet Fighters.

Source: National Archives
 

Attachments

  • Type-583.jpg
    Type-583.jpg
    94.7 KB · Views: 2,475

uk 75

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
3,735
Reaction score
2,706
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

Overscan

Brilliant, thank you this is exactly what I need. Now I have to decide whether to have it in RAF or RN colours or both.

UK 75
 

TinWing

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
896
Reaction score
110
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

overscan said:
Here's a drawing of the earlier Type 583 design with intake cones mentioned but not illustrated in Tony Buttler's Secret Projects: British Jet Fighters.

That design looks too sensible to have ever been produced.

What I see is a twin Spey project - without the stupidity of lift engines.

I have always wondered if a variable geometry type scaled around existing Spey 202 engines would have been cheaper than the cancelled TSR-2 and comparable in unit costs to the far smaller, shorter ranged Tornado?

Of course, perhaps the development program for the RB.199 was necessary to keep Rolls Royce afloat and viable as developer of military turbofans in the 1970s? Strategic industrial concerns and domestic political considerations are seldom subject to reason.

Of course, I'm
 

TinWing

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
896
Reaction score
110
overscan said:
Flying Review from 1964 Paris Airshow says BAC put on a display of VG models including VG Lightnings, perhaps that is the exhibition you mean? Unfortunately they include no pics, and my copy of Project Cancelled is the 1975 edition without this picture.

Photo in question appears on page 181 of the 1984 edition of "Project Cancelled."

The caption reads:

"The BAC secret mini-exhibition at Warton in April 1964 showed a variety of VG projects and conversions."

The 4 models at the bottom of the photo look like versions of the AFVG with different weapon loads, but there is a drawing of the top view of a variable geometry "TSR2 Development."
 

circle-5

ACCESS: Top Secret
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
1,158
Reaction score
219
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

VG development concept of TSR2 (BAC study model).
 

Attachments

  • BAC TSR2 VG.jpg
    BAC TSR2 VG.jpg
    34.7 KB · Views: 1,475

starviking

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2006
Messages
1,236
Reaction score
407
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

Are those Phoenix-class missiles? :eek:
 

Pioneer

Seek out and close with the enemy
Senior Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
2,131
Reaction score
674
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

Hey sure looks like it starviking :eek:
The new nosecone looks as if it contains a decent sized radar to match!!

Regards
Pioneer
 

CJGibson

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2011
Messages
1,583
Reaction score
1,046
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

If it's an ADV, they could be SIG-16 variants, a BAC SAM development.

What's the model's provenance? Warton? Stevenage? Elsewhere?

Chris
 

circle-5

ACCESS: Top Secret
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
1,158
Reaction score
219
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

Kelly Bushings said:
If it's an ADV, they could be SIG-16 variants, a BAC SAM development.

What's the model's provenance? Warton? Stevenage? Elsewhere?

Chris

Sorry folks, this one isn't mine and airplane models typically come with no provenance documentation. It doesn't even have a nameplate or project number tag, but it does come in nice carrying case, so it was presumably meant to be shown around to important people. I should be able to post a close-up photo of the missiles in a few weeks. They seem a bit large for Hughes' Phoenix (TSR2 was a big airplane) but it's possible...
 

uk 75

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
3,735
Reaction score
2,706
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

This is one of the models at the Bac secret exhibition on swing wing projects at Warton in 1964. The owner has one of only about 8 such models in existence. More photos and a general arrangement view please!
 

starviking

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2006
Messages
1,236
Reaction score
407
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

Kelly Bushings said:
If it's an ADV, they could be SIG-16 variants, a BAC SAM development.

What's the model's provenance? Warton? Stevenage? Elsewhere?

Chris

Anyone got good illustrations of SIG-16 configurations?
 

TsrJoe

ACCESS: Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
465
Reaction score
387
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

re the 'eagle' moniker ...

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,15271.0.html
 

uk 75

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
3,735
Reaction score
2,706
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

I think the missiles are Super Falcons rather than Phoenixes given the 1964 date. Sweden ordered Falcons and the U.K looked at the type.
 

CJGibson

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2011
Messages
1,583
Reaction score
1,046
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

Hmmm...these weapons look around 18+ inches in diameter and about 15ft long, which is too big for SIG-16 and Super Falcon. Mind you SIG-16 was somewhat short-legged, so a larger, longer-range variant may have been proposed. Also the small matter of the tandem booster that these weapons appear to lack.

I'll dig out the SIG file.

Anyone know if it was labeled as an air defence variant in the Warton display?

Chris
 

uk 75

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
3,735
Reaction score
2,706
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

Chris The Falcon could be the version carred by the yf 12a and which was around in 1964. Project Cancelled has a pic of the Warton exhib but no captions on the models. They are of the same vg type but with different weapons loads.
 

JFC Fuller

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
2,395
Reaction score
1,118
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

Perhaps some over-thinking, given the tenuous (read non existent) requirement for such a variant is it perhaps possible that the missiles in question are generic and based on in house Vickers/BAC studies?
 

uk 75

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
3,735
Reaction score
2,706
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

SL good point. A drawing of the bac 583 from the same exhibition shows two missiles in tandem which as you say are a generic design. That a private collector has a model from this exhibition is incredible. I want to know more.
 

CJGibson

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2011
Messages
1,583
Reaction score
1,046
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

SIG-16 - 10" diameter, 10ft long (plus tandem boost, total 12ft)
AIM-47 - 13/13.5" diameter, 12.5ft long

So...stores on the model too big for either.

Could they be ASMs? Could that model be a strike variant with a F-111-style radar fit?

Chris
 

circle-5

ACCESS: Top Secret
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
1,158
Reaction score
219
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

Additional Photos of the BAC TSR2 VG model. The carrying case is marked Vickers Type 583. By courtesy of the Sir George Cox Collection.
 

Attachments

  • Vickers Type 583 01.jpg
    Vickers Type 583 01.jpg
    96.3 KB · Views: 952
  • Vickers Type 583 02.jpg
    Vickers Type 583 02.jpg
    76.6 KB · Views: 894
  • Vickers Type 583 03.jpg
    Vickers Type 583 03.jpg
    107.4 KB · Views: 898

Anderman

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
203
Reaction score
68
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

Mh when i look at nose cone it doesn´t shaped like TSR.2 maybe this is a Vickers 583?
 

zen

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2007
Messages
2,729
Reaction score
1,442
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

Hmmmm....

That looks like a variant of Type 583, its too small to be TSR.2 with a VG wing. That being based on the size of the cockpit relative to the fusilage.

Missile looks curious. Could this be a variant of CF.299 prior to the larger 'fins'? That might fit the use of the earlier 'D' shape inlets. Or is this some other missile?
 

Thorvic

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
652
Reaction score
173
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

Yeap its the Vickers 583 design with the TSR2 style intakes rather than the Vigilante style ones, i suspect the missile is possible just Eagle/Phoenix sized to represent the design was intended to carry the new heavier long range missiles then under development to push its intended interceptor roleas the USN at the time were already looking to replace the new F-4 Phantom with the next generation TFX interceptors.

Geoff
 

Thorvic

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
652
Reaction score
173
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

Would it be possible to see an undersides shot of the 583 model to see how the belly looks as i only recal seeing the 583V undersides in BSP and it would be interesting to see how the conventional was configured.

I think i actually prefer the look with the TSR2 style intakes rather than the Vigilante style ones, although thinking about it the intake choice was in flux with the various successors to the 583 - AFVG, UKVG both had rounded intakes before the Panavia Tornado was built with the tapered box intake.

Cheers

Geoff
 

uk 75

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
3,735
Reaction score
2,706
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

Geoff

I agree, it would be nice to see the underside view.

The BAC exhibition was held in 1964 so the missile is probably a generic Falcon/Eagle class weapon.
I don't think the Phoenix had quite evolved yet. It sure looks like a Phoenix though.

What a great model!

Ralph
 

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,598
Reaction score
7,603
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

Phoenix test rounds flew in 1965. The wing here has a distinctive kink however, unlike GAR-9 or Phoenix.
 

Anderman

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
203
Reaction score
68
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

Does anybody das hard data for the type 583 weight, dimensions , engine thrust ?

BTW was the topic renamed or was it always about the 583?
 

uk 75

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
3,735
Reaction score
2,706
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

Is this the missile?
 

Attachments

  • aim47.JPG
    aim47.JPG
    23.3 KB · Views: 467

Anderman

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
203
Reaction score
68
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

No the wings haven´t the same shape.
 

PMN1

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
904
Reaction score
474
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

Given fixed geometry designs had swing wing variants - Lightning, Phantom - presumably a fixed geometry variant of the 583 could have been developed?
 

zen

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2007
Messages
2,729
Reaction score
1,442
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

Thats a damn good question PMN1!

Certainly it was done I think on the later AFVG and other later VG concepts as a comparison.
 

zen

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2007
Messages
2,729
Reaction score
1,442
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

Nose of the missile looks too blunt on the model, I'd say their some derivative of a ramjet like SeaDart and that blunt nose is just a frangible covering to keep drag down during carridge.
 

uk 75

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
3,735
Reaction score
2,706
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

I still go with the generic long range missile idea. But to help others decide. Here is a picture of the Aim 54 Phoenix. Here is Adrian Mann's artist's impression of a 1154 carrying a Seadart aa missile derivative
 

Attachments

  • Aim 54.jpg
    Aim 54.jpg
    21.8 KB · Views: 1,385
  • P1154-Seadart-Tychon-2m.jpg
    P1154-Seadart-Tychon-2m.jpg
    10.3 KB · Views: 1,865

zen

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2007
Messages
2,729
Reaction score
1,442
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

Nope not convinced, the wingform is more complex than the modeld CF.299 AAM variant or the AIM-54.
 

circle-5

ACCESS: Top Secret
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
1,158
Reaction score
219
Re: Vickers (Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

As requested, please find attached a photo of the Vickers Type 583 underside. The centerline Hughes missiles are in a semi-conformal configuration, while the outer missiles are mounted on fixed, wing-glove pylons. (Courtesy Sir George Cox Collection)
 

Attachments

  • Vickers Type 583 AA Missiles.jpg
    Vickers Type 583 AA Missiles.jpg
    129.8 KB · Views: 1,507

PMN1

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
904
Reaction score
474
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

Did the variable geometry play any role in allowing the type to be able to be operated from Hermes or could a fixed geometry design have also done so?
 

pathology_doc

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
1,061
Reaction score
443
Re: Vickers(Supermarine) 583 VG fighter

Re. the missile - perhaps the heavy end of the "Family" series mentioned in BSP4?

Whatever it is, it seems the same problem across multiple services (USAF, USN, RAF, RN) could be expected, in a given generation of technology, to lead to a somewhat convergent solution.
 

Similar threads

Top