Vertical launch Sea Dart

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Sea Dart is stored vertically on the Type 42's as it was on the Type 82 in rotating drums (presumably 11 Sea Dart per drum on the Type 42 if the figures on magazine capacity are correct).

Does anyone know why when they had the missle in the 'correct' orientation it was decided to throw that away and use a trainalble launcher?

What was there to stop the RN using the rotating drum as a VLS similar to the Soviet SA-N-9 with the rotating drum firing out of a single apeture rather than feeding them to the trainable launcher or even making the whole drum a VLS equivalent to the Mk41 or Sylver but in service far sooner than any of these.
 
I believe that the choice of launcher was more to do with the technology of the time. The missile technology of the time limited the missiles ability to "tip" and enter the guidance waves of the FC radar, in the same way as thrust vector control allows missile such as the later versions of SM2 and Sea Wolf. The American Mk11 & 13 launchers operate in the same way as GWS30. Also Russian/Soviet missiles of the same era as SD SAN 1 & 3 use the same method and the SAN 4 actually lowered the entire launcher into the magazine to reload.

It was therefore necessary to point the missile in the general direction of the target.

Also the design of the missiles magazine for Sea Dart would not allow the arrangement suggested. The actual magazine is two deck down, the area immediately below the launcher is an intermediate stage where the booster has its fins connected and the missile is warmed up. Remember that Sea Dart was a Valve/Vacuum Tube technology missile.

Also IIRC at least some if not all Russia/Soviet VLS missiles are "cold" launched. That is they are ejected from their launch tube under pressure and the missile motor only ignites when the missile has cleared the tube. This allowed for the revolver type launcher, rather than the fixed launchers as used in the west, which require exhuast arrangement for the missiles.
 
The actual magazine is two deck down, the area immediately below the launcher is an intermediate stage where the booster has its fins connected and the missile is warmed up.
I wasn't aware that Sea Dart was that kind of missile; I thought it was run up directly to the launcher as-is.
 
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Was there any British expertise in solid-fuel TVC prior to Taildog/SRAAM? None comes to mind, it just wasn't a technology available when Sea Dart was in development.

The first projection of a VL British SAM that I can remember was Shield, derived from SRAAM.
 
Was there any British expertise in solid-fuel TVC prior to Taildog/SRAAM? None comes to mind, it just wasn't a technology available when Sea Dart was in development.

The first projection of a VL British SAM that I can remember was Shield, derived from SRAAM.

A technology demo vertical launch Sea Wolf was successfully fired in the early 1970’s (the first of these could even have been 69), but not proceed with until the mid 80’s. The early demo used a semi-fore type thrust deflector.

Summerfield’s built a TVC firing stand for Chow in the late 70’s and fired numerous TVC Extended Chow’s. Sea Dart mk2 wasn’t vertical launch, it was for stern blind spot coverage. Vertical launch Sea Dart was studied and its configuration was selected. When I was working with the team in the early mid eighties, I was told they wanted the launch cells at the ships stern which meant a new ship design.
 
the missile is warmed up. Remember that Sea Dart was a Valve/Vacuum Tube technology missile.

Despite what’s commonly written, Sea Darts Missile avionics we’re all solid state… no vac tubes. There were vac tubes in the Type 965 radar (the 50’s legacy) which were F1000 micro processor controlled (the early.70’s bit)

I think the statement that the GWS30 system ie radar/fire control/missile etc contained vac tubes has been misinterpreted as the Sea Dart itself contained vac tubes.
 
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Was there any British expertise in solid-fuel TVC prior to Taildog/SRAAM? None comes to mind, it just wasn't a technology available when Sea Dart was in development.

The first projection of a VL British SAM that I can remember was Shield, derived from SRAAM.
Seaslug was originally to be vertically launched in 1948 discussions. But concerns over the need to get a system ASAP drove the launcher.
NIGS included possible VL.
PX430 which became Sea Wolf included VL options from the 60's.
 
Summerfield’s built a TVC firing stand for Chow in the late 70’s and fired numerous TVC Extended Chow’s. Sea Dart mk2 wasn’t vertical launch, it was for stern blind spot coverage. Vertical launch Sea Dart was studied and its configuration was selected. When I was working with the team in the early mid eighties, I was told they wanted the launch cells at the ships stern which meant a new ship design.
This is rather intriguing.
Do you remember if the TVC Chow booster was longer than the original?
 
This is admittedly a tangent, but I remember as a kid seeing what appeared to be actual footage of British ship based SAMs being launched in the UFO episode Destruction - any pointers?
 
This is admittedly a tangent, but I remember as a kid seeing what appeared to be actual footage of British ship based SAMs being launched in the UFO episode Destruction - any pointers?

Wiki says there is stock footage of HMS Hampshire launching Sea Slug.

 
Summerfield’s built a TVC firing stand for Chow in the late 70’s and fired numerous TVC Extended Chow’s. Sea Dart mk2 wasn’t vertical launch, it was for stern blind spot coverage.
This is rather intriguing.
Do you remember if the TVC Chow booster was longer than the original?

Turning a vehicle consumes energy, so slows it down, which is bad for bringing the Odin to life. Hence the solution is to pack a bit more energy into the booster. To be honest I never saw a real TVC Chow so couldn’t say how much bigger , joined the team about 3-4 years too late, but I did see a video clip of a static test.
 
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Was there any British expertise in solid-fuel TVC prior to Taildog/SRAAM? None comes to mind, it just wasn't a technology available when Sea Dart was in development.

The first projection of a VL British SAM that I can remember was Shield, derived from SRAAM.

A technology demo vertical launch Sea Wolf was successfully fired in the early 1970’s (the first of these could even have been 69), but not proceed with until the mid 80’s. The early demo used a semi-fore type thrust deflector.

Summerfield’s built a TVC firing stand for Chow in the late 70’s and fired numerous TVC Extended Chow’s. Sea Dart mk2 wasn’t vertical launch, it was for stern blind spot coverage. Vertical launch Sea Dart was studied and its configuration was selected. When I was working with the team in the early mid eighties, I was told they wanted the launch cells at the ships stern which meant a new ship design.
The former Loch class 'frigate' HMS Loch Fada was used as a trials ship by BAC for early Sea Wolf trials. From what little I have managed to read, this included V.L. trials, although it apparently wasn't pursued immediately. I read somewhere that the ship broke free of her moorings in bad weather and she was too damaged to continue being used.
REALLY LONG SHOT....Does anyone know of/have any pictures of Loch Fada being used for Sea Wolf trials?
 
Was there any British expertise in solid-fuel TVC prior to Taildog/SRAAM? None comes to mind, it just wasn't a technology available when Sea Dart was in development.

The first projection of a VL British SAM that I can remember was Shield, derived from SRAAM.
Seaslug was originally to be vertically launched in 1948 discussions. But concerns over the need to get a system ASAP drove the launcher.
NIGS included possible VL.
PX430 which became Sea Wolf included VL options from the 60's.

IIRC, there is a picture of the VL arrangement or a description in one of Friedman's books.
 
This is admittedly a tangent, but I remember as a kid seeing what appeared to be actual footage of British ship based SAMs being launched in the UFO episode Destruction - any pointers?

Wiki says there is stock footage of HMS Hampshire launching Sea Slug.

Thanks, TomS :D!

Martin
A little after 3:20 here, and 41:00 has most of the Sea Slug action in the episode.
 
Was there any British expertise in solid-fuel TVC prior to Taildog/SRAAM? None comes to mind, it just wasn't a technology available when Sea Dart was in development.

The first projection of a VL British SAM that I can remember was Shield, derived from SRAAM.
Seaslug was originally to be vertically launched in 1948 discussions. But concerns over the need to get a system ASAP drove the launcher.
NIGS included possible VL.
PX430 which became Sea Wolf included VL options from the 60's.

IIRC, there is a picture of the VL arrangement or a description in one of Friedman's books.
Got to wander if the wrap around booster arrangement would help with VL?
 
Was there any British expertise in solid-fuel TVC prior to Taildog/SRAAM? None comes to mind, it just wasn't a technology available when Sea Dart was in development.

The first projection of a VL British SAM that I can remember was Shield, derived from SRAAM.
Seaslug was originally to be vertically launched in 1948 discussions. But concerns over the need to get a system ASAP drove the launcher.
NIGS included possible VL.
PX430 which became Sea Wolf included VL options from the 60's.

IIRC, there is a picture of the VL arrangement or a description in one of Friedman's books.
Got to wander if the wrap around booster arrangement would help with VL?
Might work if the missile motor was the vectoring system. Leaving boosters as just raw thrust providers. Could even allow the missile to compensate for booster issues.
 
Was there any British expertise in solid-fuel TVC prior to Taildog/SRAAM? None comes to mind, it just wasn't a technology available when Sea Dart was in development.

The first projection of a VL British SAM that I can remember was Shield, derived from SRAAM.
Seaslug was originally to be vertically launched in 1948 discussions. But concerns over the need to get a system ASAP drove the launcher.
NIGS included possible VL.
PX430 which became Sea Wolf included VL options from the 60's.

IIRC, there is a picture of the VL arrangement or a description in one of Friedman's books.
I recall seeing a photo of a VL launched Sea Wolf some time before the missile entered service. As I recall,. it had a long booster attached. Don't recall what the launch vessel was - possibly a barge?
 
Was there any British expertise in solid-fuel TVC prior to Taildog/SRAAM? None comes to mind, it just wasn't a technology available when Sea Dart was in development.

The first projection of a VL British SAM that I can remember was Shield, derived from SRAAM.
Seaslug was originally to be vertically launched in 1948 discussions. But concerns over the need to get a system ASAP drove the launcher.
NIGS included possible VL.
PX430 which became Sea Wolf included VL options from the 60's.

IIRC, there is a picture of the VL arrangement or a description in one of Friedman's books.
I recall seeing a photo of a VL launched Sea Wolf some time before the missile entered service. As I recall,. it had a long booster attached. Don't recall what the launch vessel was - possibly a barge?

From Shipbucket but it does tie in with what i've read elsewhere


She was built for Wijsmuller Bros Marine UK as the Semi Submersible Heavy Lift Barge "Ocean Servant 1" in 1976 and was Comandeered by the MOD in 1984 to test the Sea Wolf VLS GWS 26 system to be fitted to the Type 23 Frigates. Following completion of the trials she was mothballed from 1987 to 2003 in Brixham harbour, Devon, UK whilst the MOD decided what to do with her. There was several suggestions to despose of the vessel following completion of the Sea Wolf trials and it's eventual deployment on the Type 23 and aborted deployment on the Fort Victoria Class.

In 2003 she was again brought into use by the MOD for testing the then joint Franco/italian/United Kingdom PAAMS (Principle Anti Air Missile System) missile system (later to be called "Sea Viper" when the UK pulled out of the Horizon Frigate Programme and concentrated on it's own Type 45 Destroyer Design). she was fitted with the Samson radar and a 4 chamber VLS for the PAAMS (Aster15 and Aster30) Missiles. she carried out a number of successfull and some not so successfull launches at the French missile test ranges before the Sea Viper trials were concluded by the French and Royal Navy's aboard there respective ship's (HMS Daring and Dauntless for the RN).

In 2010 talk was suggesting a repreive as a air defense barge to be parked at the mouth of the River Thames as part of London's hightened security for the 2012 olympics but this was droped and HMS Ocean and a Type 45 Destroyer were made available instead. there was also plans to use Longbow as a test platform for the new CAMM (Common Anti Air Modular Missile) soon to be deployed by the Royal Navy (Type 23 and Future Type 26), RAF (Replacement for ASRAAM) and the ARMY (replacement for Rapier). but this was dropped as testing aboard a Type 23 was deemed Cheaper.

In 2012 she was sold for scrap to a Turkish Breakers, ending an eventfull 36 year career.

Bit more info


In 1984, the barge was purchased from Weijsmuller by the MoD and converted to a trials facility for use in the Vertical Launch
Seawolf missile project and was renamed Dynamic Servant.

The barge was renamed Trials Barge Longbow in 1985 once the conversion had been completed.

Following the Seawolf trials, Longbow was then moored at Brixham from 1989 under MOD care and maintenance programme until early 2002.

It was moved in August 03 to Fleet Support Ltd (FSL), Portsmouth for conversion, for Principal AntiAir Missile Systems tracking & firing trials.
 
Was there any British expertise in solid-fuel TVC prior to Taildog/SRAAM? None comes to mind, it just wasn't a technology available when Sea Dart was in development.

The first projection of a VL British SAM that I can remember was Shield, derived from SRAAM.

A technology demo vertical launch Sea Wolf was successfully fired in the early 1970’s (the first of these could even have been 69), but not proceed with until the mid 80’s. The early demo used a semi-fore type thrust deflector.

Summerfield’s built a TVC firing stand for Chow in the late 70’s and fired numerous TVC Extended Chow’s. Sea Dart mk2 wasn’t vertical launch, it was for stern blind spot coverage. Vertical launch Sea Dart was studied and its configuration was selected. When I was working with the team in the early mid eighties, I was told they wanted the launch cells at the ships stern which meant a new ship design.

Another successful British TVC missile from the late sixties was Swingfire which could turn almost 90deg immediately after launch. Note 7.50 mins
View: https://youtu.be/Z0V23qLUN6I
 

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