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Various aviation projects from South Africa

kaiserbill

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Just further to posts 115 to 118, on the previous page, regarding that Impala with the unusual camouflague colours, and the vicinity it is flying in, here are some further pics of the exact same bay (Saldhana Bay) with some Impalas flying with AAM's from nearby Langebaanweg Air Force Base.


It was an unusual configuration, and I believe this was from the period when it was investigated whether the Impala would make a useful anti-helicopter platform, which culminated in the downing of those 6 helicopters over Southern Angola, albeit with 30mm cannon.
Sharp eyes will detect the radar warning receivers (RWR) on the wingtip tanks (fore, middle, and aft), under the front fuselage, and dispensors under the wings for chaff/flares.


The first pic is taken from the opposite side of the mouth of the bay, from the seaward side. The Recce Special Forces base is on the headland to the right, just under the aircraft nose. The previous pic discussed was of an aircraft flying over the original quay, which is obscured by the aircrafts port wingtip tank.
 

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Graugrun

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cluttonfred

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GTX said:
Seeing some serious Republic Seabee inspiration in this.
Nothing wrong with that, basing a new aircraft on a tried-and-true configuration makes a lot of sense. I do wonder about the little canard, though.
 

GTX

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Not saying there is anything wrong...just making an observation.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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kaiserbill said:
From what I can gather, David Fabish was one of the designers of the Mirage 2000. There was some speculation about where he went to after the Carver was cancelled...

David Fabish was a (Romanian Jew) aircraft designer who indeed worked on various aeroplanes including Mirage 2000. He's mentioned living back in Paris probably around 2001 in this book:


https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=CEmyCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA86&lpg=PA86&dq=david+fabish+paris&source=bl&ots=4koRSop3PF&sig=u2HnODDQFXQKy0wMGMpW3pw2cpo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAmoVChMIvMvDp-LByAIVxpWUCh2UVwh8#v=onepage&q=david%20fabish%20paris&f=false
 

kaiserbill

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You've read my mind like a book Paul. ;D
I was just about to repost the question on the J-10 thread, but this is a much more suitable place.


As mentioned earlier, there was a poster on another forum (the SAAF forum?) who stated he worked with David Fabish when he was in South Africa on the Carver project, and stated he had previously been on the Mirage 2000 programme for Dassault.
Said that as a young engineer at Atlas, he and his colleagues would sometimes be a bit rowdy, and David Fabish would come in from the office next door and wave his hands in the air berating them to be quieter. He was the one who wondered where Fabish had gone after the Carver programme was cancelled, and idly wondered whether he went to China...
But this poster though then mentioned categorically that Fabish was not a fan of canards at all, which is why like the Mirage 2000, Carver didn't have them, and which probably/possibly rules him out in a major role in Lavi or the J-10?
 

kaiserbill

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The next generation Rooivalk will feature better sights, improved firepower,
Rather ironic, when one considers the far more sophisticated original local sight was replaced by a less capable French sight, as can be seen when comparing pics of the original Rooivalk to the production variant. This then also tied into them therefore not integrating/slowing down the entire Mokopa missile development and integration programme.
There was a fellow over on the SAAF forum who worked on the original sight, and the associated Mokopa, and he was pretty annoyed and quite vocal about the fact that they went for the foreign, less capable sight. It seems he was right.
 

sa_bushwar

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kaiserbill said:
The next generation Rooivalk will feature better sights, improved firepower,
Rather ironic, when one considers the far more sophisticated original local sight was replaced by a less capable French sight, as can be seen when comparing pics of the original Rooivalk to the production variant. This then also tied into them therefore not integrating/slowing down the entire Mokopa missile development and integration programme.
There was a fellow over on the SAAF forum who worked on the original sight, and the associated Mokopa, and he was pretty annoyed and quite vocal about the fact that they went for the foreign, less capable sight. It seems he was right.
Apparently the current 20mm gun gave some jamming problems in the DRC deployment against the rebels and they had to be finished off with rocket fire.
 

stimpy75

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came along this pic
i know it's photoshopped but is it an officail photoshop or fanmade
this was the news regarding Algeria:
Announced by the Algerian prime Minister Sellah about 3 weeks ago at Tizi Ouzou, without giving more details. According to the information we obtained, the contract would cover a small assembly unit and advanced maintenance for 24-48 helicopters NAH attack (New Attack Helicopter) designed (and never produced) by Denel.

The NAH is the natural evolution of the Rooivalk, without being a simple makeover of the a SAAF attack helicopter. In reality, the concept has benefited from the ATE experience and feedback on the cockpit, avionics, weapon systems and ergonomics of the Algerian Mi24 MkIII , with the possibility of firing anti-tank missiles mokopa . The helicoter keeps the turbines and the tail engine of the Rooivalk .

but Algeria ordered 42 Mİ-28 helis
 

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kaiserbill

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There were two or three images of that Rooivalk Mk2 around at the time.
If I recall correctly, it was on ATE's website, at roughly the same time that mock-up of Mil Hind helicopter was shown with the radically different/rebuilt cockpit and nose. Not the Super Hind, but the one with the entirely new front fuselage and cockpits.
 

kaiserbill

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Had a look around last night, and the Hind I was talking about was the ATE Super Hind MkV. Had a completely new forward fuselage. Link to the topic is here:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=16528.0

That pic of the Rooivalk follow-on was around the same time if I'm recalling correctly, and was known as either the Rooivalk Mk2 or the Rooivalk Lite.
 

Graugrun

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Rooivalk is being updated to a Mk 1.1 level, exactly what that will entail has not yet been revealed yet. It seems like there is also a strong drive to then develop a new version, dubbed Rooivalk Mk 2 at this point. There would need to be minimum orders of 75 aircraft to make the production of the Mk 2 viable - time will tell if this will work out or not.

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=45056:talks-about-next-generation-rooivalk-on-table-at-aad&catid=35:Aerospace&Itemid=107

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2016/09/13/Next-generation-of-formidable-Rooivalk-attack-chopper-in-the-pipeline
 

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Graugrun

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Another update on the SARA project - I spent some time chatting to one of the engineering project team members, inside the mock-up and I must say my views on the SARA have been changed. They really have done their homework and seem to be developing something to cover a nice niche market in terms of smaller or currently non-feasible aviation routes. It is very roomy inside, with a 4 seat abreast arrangement (center isle) and nicely laid out. I thought the cockpit would have slightly limited forward view, however sitting in the pilot's seat I had excellent forward vision.

The question always is - do they have the money to develop it fully... well since there also seems to be a sudden hold in the Airforce's maritime search, rescue and patrol tender, perhaps there is also a military drive in the background for this aircraft? If so, that would certainly give it a better chance of seeing the light of day...

Again - this article is courtesy of IHS Janes Defence.

http://www.janes.com/article/63801/an-aircraft-for-africa-aad16d2
 

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kaiserbill

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Hi Graugrun, very interesting. I'd wondered if there was any news on this.
Are there any pics of the interior?
 

Graugrun

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Some more info for you Kaiserbill...

A few pics of the mock-up, with some people around it for sizing, including a pic of the 'fact' sheet. I never thought to take a pic of the cockpit from the inside - it was as sparse as the rear, just with two pilot's seats and a simple wooden mock-up of the cockpit instrumentation.
 

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kaiserbill

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Thanks Graugrun.

Very interesting.....the cabin height and width in particular. The cabin dimensions seem to be slightly larger than the CASA 212, and quite a bit bigger than the Let 410...but with a cruise speed much higher than both.
 

kaiserbill

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Thanks Graugrun.
Is there any indication of a timeline regarding getting a prototype built and up in the air?
 

Graugrun

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Kaiserbill - this was scanned from the AAD show daily (produced by IHS Janes) and covers about all I know and more about the project. With a reported breakeven of 360 aircraft within the first 10 years, I have my doubts about it's viability - but then I am no guru or fundi in terms of the aviation industry... There has been scant mention of an anticipated 'in service' date, I just think they need to get a move on if they want it to work out...

Hopefully someone with far more knowledge on this type of thing can give us some input and thoughts on this?
 

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Graugrun

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sa_bushwar - please see my post #14 on the first page of this thread, in which I posted a scan of the XG-30 brochure...

sa_bushwar said:
Any idea what chin mounted MG was tried on the Rooivalk prototype? It is different to the 20mm production version. The board in front of the helicopter states 30mm XG-30.
 

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An article on the Rooivalk - it mentions that just in 2016 they have fired 1 200, 70 mm rockets and 11 000 rounds of 20 mm ammunition in combat action supporting the U.N. in the Democratic Republic of Congo (Monusco). Seems they have being seeing a lot more combat of late than what I realized!

It also talks about the various upgrades and new version development - including that Denel wants to become the OEM in terms of the dynamic components (engines and gearboxes). Makes sense - after what happened in the Turkish Attack Helicopter competition in particular. It would be interesting to see what version of engine and components they select (or further develop) and whether or not they move to a 5 blades rotor-head (i.e. H225) or not. Also will they move to the Turbomeca Makila 2-A1 or replace the Makila with a RTM 322 (or derivative). Denel may even continue with the halted Makila 2B development, thus attaining a true degree of OEM status.

I have a pic of the Rooivalk with the new Hensholt Optronics (made up mostly of ex South African Eloptro personal, I believe) Argos II observation and targeting system - I need to dig it up and will post it later.

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48140:busy-times-for-the-rooivalk&catid=124:military-helicopters&Itemid=282
 

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Graugrun

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I thought I had taken a photo of Rooivalk with the Argos II observation and targeting system, it appears not... instead this is one I downloaded from the net some time ago...

The Argos II will go a long way to improving Rooivalk's observation capabilities, general awareness and targeting/weapons guidance functionality - it's also a lot smaller than the outdated French and much less capable system (no target laser designating etc...etc) it's hopefully replacing. I'm not sure how much of a weight difference there is, or how much difference (if any) the less weight will make.
 

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kaiserbill

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Interesting Graugrun...the French sight was originally selected over the more sophisticated local sight purely because of the massively slashed defence budget. A new sight is overdue.
I haven't forgotten your message...just been hectically busy!!
 

kaiserbill

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Over on the SAAF forum, this popped up.
The person who posted it said it was posted on the Atlas Impala page and said the following basic description was also posted. Rough translation:

"The design followed the need for a ground attack and close air support aircraft. A completely new clean sheet design would have taken a decade, but this would have been greatly shortened by using existing components from the Impala.
Two engines the same as used in the Impala (RR Viper) but with newly designed afterburners added.
Impala nose and ejection seat. (nose =front fuselage?)
Impala undercarriage...etc.
30mm cannon, high ammunition capacity, different/ various underwing hardpoints, armoured protection.. etc"

I have tried to find out more about this over there but to no avail. I guess the speculation is whether this was an actual requirement, an official design, an unsolicited bid, or an engineering excercise by one of the engineering depts in Atlas.
Does anyone know any more, or have an opinion?
 

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Very similar to the Saab P1642 and the Saab 105, imo.
 
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