US-Franco Rafale

F-2

F-2

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
22 May 2020
Messages
694
Reaction score
1,211
Search for Franco-American cooperation (1981)[edit]
In parallel with attempts at international cooperation for ACT 92, Marcel Dassault is considering Franco-American cooperation with Grumman for a jet powered by two General Electric F404. In July 1981, he wrote to Georges Skurla, President of Grummann and offered him to set up a joint design office in one of the countries of the European Community. On August 21, Georges Skurla replied to Marcel Dassault that he was interested in this cooperation: "Our Grumman company has always had a lot of esteem and respect for your company and we look forward to working with you". On November 13, 1981, Geoges Skurla wrote to Marcel Dassault that it might be possible to associate MBB as the third partner of the project. On November 17, 1981, Marcel Dassault noted that in this case, it could first be considered to build an aircraft equipped with the F404 and American avionics for NATO needs and, in a second stage, a second version equipped with a Snecma engine and French avionics. He also explains that if Grumman is only interested in "pipes on our manufacturing processes... then it is better to give up"31. Finally, this Franco-American cooperation does not succeed and the only possibility of cooperation that remains studied is that between AMD-BA, MBB and British Aerospace
Click to expand...
From French wiki


What if the Rafale was codeveloped between both countries? The Hornet was a very nice aircraft but consolidating several different airframes into one was quite the effort and development was a tough process, it also took some years to really reach its full potential. Could a Dassault Grumman Rafale be a viable aircraft for the USN in place of the hornet or later super hornet?
 
Given both entered service in 2001, I fail to see what benefit a Rafel would have had over a Super Hornet. If anything, I would suspect a co-development would have been later in service. Re comparison with the 'Classic' Hornet, you are comparing to something that was in service decades before the Rafale, so again, why?
 
Not sure if Grumman has enough political capital to have the DOD even consider it, we know their eventual fate unfortunately. France would probably be worried about Dassault being taken over by Americans?
 
GTX said:
Given both entered service in 2001, I fail to see what benefit a Rafel would have had over a Super Hornet. If anything, I would suspect a co-development would have been later in service. Re comparison with the 'Classic' Hornet, you are comparing to something that was in service decades before the Rafale, so again, why?
Click to expand...
Rafale was planned for a mid 90s service date and that was entirely achievable but negotiations between the French government and dassault delayed it till the early 2000s. This is however would probably actually replace the Rafale with a common Franco-American airframe, and without the French having to develop every system from scratch I don’t see why that date can’t be earlier. M88 development isn’t mandatory, their where talks for a common French American radar for the Hornet 2000 in 1988 based on the Super Entendard modernization.
 
I'm interested in this ATL because i would have wanted at least Spain to stay in the Rafale program since they operated french aircraft in addition to american before, so an F404 powered Rafale variant might be of interest for Spain giving engine commonality with their F-18.

As i understand though Spain was more or less blackmailed by UK to stay with the future Typhoon in the eighties.

I really can't see neither the americans, nor Dassault being fond of this US-France Rafale though.
 
As a matter of fact the Rafale A demonstrator mockedup in 1983 and flown in 1986 had F404 engines (just like EFA had RB199s).

So, what can be done with that peculiar aircraft ? SNECMA is a public company in France and the M88 cannot be canned. Just ask the Typhoon gang.

But maybe some kind of Rafale A derivative with foreign engines, radars and missiles could survive ?
Yet if Grumman is concerned, then it can only be a low end to Tomcat... that is, an anti-Hornet.
In turn this places right on the path of, first, Super Hornet; and later, of F-35.
Probably with F414.

As for Spain, they bought Hornets in 1983 and I'm not sure what Rafale A bring on top of it. Then again, the generations before they had F-104G & Mirage IIIE; F-5, F-4 and Mirage F1.

And I learned on this very forum Spain did not went for Typhoon before 1988, rather than 1985 when the three others split.

so maybe, somewhere between 1983 and 1988 France makes Spain an offer they cannot refuse: Rafale A with F404s.
 
red admiral said:
lancer21 said:
As i understand though Spain was more or less blackmailed by UK to stay with the future Typhoon in the eighties.
Click to expand...
?
Click to expand...
Some time back when i was probably looking for something else i stumbled upon an article which pretty much said the gist above, the english strong-armed/basically blackmailed Spain to join Eurofighter using the upcoming EU membership negotiation/approval for Spain to join (which it did in 1986). Presumably they were threatening to veto Spain's admission or some other hindrance.
 
Last edited:
lancer21 said:
red admiral said:
lancer21 said:
As i understand though Spain was more or less blackmailed by UK to stay with the future Typhoon in the eighties.
Click to expand...
?
Click to expand...
Some time back when i was probably looking for something else i stumbled upon an article which pretty much said the gist above, the english strong-armed/basically blackmailed Spain to join Eurofighter using the upcoming EU membership negotiation/approval for Spain to join (which it did in 1986). Presumably they were threatening to veto Spain's admission or some other hindrance.
Click to expand...
That's pretty ugly but if proven then: the dates match. The Rafale / Typhoon final split happened in the summer of 1985, Spain joined the EU early 1986 yet this forum told me Spain dragged their Typhoon final decision until 1988.
 
Well the later 1990s TNA files from the FCO do have closed extracts, most of the mid-80s files are all DEFE (MoD) files, but any evidence of blackmail like this will have been weeded out - though there can be some strong opinions in these files!

Either way would be good to have some more solid evidence for the claim, one could easily ask why France didn't threaten a veto on the same grounds for example.
 
I readily agree with the above statement. Mitterand, Hernu and Dassault were no saints by a long shot.
Even if Felipe Gonzalez was (supposedly) as socialist as Tonton Mitterrand... and thus a political ally against The Iron Lady. Reality was a bit more cruel... and 1992 ended as an "annus horribilis" for Spain, France (and Great Britain) altogether.
 
You have to assume any French Dassault cooperation would be on similar terms to the ones they tried to dictate to the other EFA partners: "The French also expected all prototype construction and all flight test to be undertaken in France, and demanded 50% workshare and leadership of the Joint Industrial Group which would nominate equipment suppliers and look after all exports. France was effectively demanding that its partners should subsidise a French aircraft, optimised for French needs, in return for being allocated 'titbits' of work by Dassault." (WAPJ Winter 98)

If anything I think Dassault would be even more concerned at working with a US company than with the Europeans, due to the possibility of being swamped by scale. I'm extremely suspicious of Marcel Dassault's genuine willingness (as reported in the original post) to build an aircraft with American engines and American avionics as a first, NATO step to building a French specific aircraft as a second phase - that's the way to end up like Northrop with the F-18L. And I don't think Marcel Dassault is that stupid. Particularly as at the time Dassault's fingers were still being actively burned by unlicensed Israeli production and export of American-engined Mirage Vs (aka Nesher/Dagger/Kfir).

ETA: and this is already in the ITAR timeframe, so Dassault's freedom to export to whoever they wanted would have been subject to US approval (ie seriously compromised).
 
Last edited:
lancer #5: Spain was more or less blackmailed by UK (to stay on Typhoon). It would be reassuring to me, a Brit, to find my seniors and betters had such skills...but...improbable.

France/FRG/Italy/Spain/UK FEFA Report: 17/6/85. France exits for ACX.
FRG/Italy/UK MoU, EFA Project Definition: 1/8/85. France invites Spain to join ACX. Spain joins EFA 31/8/85, stating offtake of 100.
FRG/Italy/UK MoU, Eurofighter Full Scale Devt, 15/5/88. France invites Spain to join Rafale A. Spain joins EF2000 11/88.

It is much more likely that Spain twice negotiated better industrial status on Typhoon. EEC accession was 1/1/86.
 
Last edited:
alertken said:
lancer #5: Spain was more or less blackmailed by UK (to stay on Typhoon). It would be reassuring to me, a Brit, to find my seniors and betters had such skills...but...improbable.

France/FRG/Italy/Spain/UK FEFA Report: 17/6/85. France exits for ACX.
FRG/Italy/UK MoU, EFA Project Definition: 1/8/85. France invites Spain to join ACX. Spain joins EFA 31/8/85, stating offtake of 100.
FRG/Italy/UK MoU, Eurofighter Full Scale Devt, 15/5/88. France invites Spain to join Rafale A. Spain joins EF2000 11/88.

It is much more likely that Spain twice negotiated better industrial status on Typhoon. EEC accession was 1/1/86.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that post, I had never quite understood whether Spain had joined the Typhoon band in 1985 or 1988. Now it's clearer.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom