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Ural Bomber

saturncanuck

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Hey all, any info and pics on the Luftwaffe's pre-war four-engine bomber program?
 

Antonio

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http://www.amazon.com/Luftwaffe-Secret-Projects-Strategic-1935-1945/dp/1857800923/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1252017734&sr=1-1
;)
 

Wurger

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The two known contenders were the Do 19 and the Ju 89. They got to hardware stage, and flew for some time, not being much appreciated. References were made ( Manfred Griehl in "Luftwaffe Over America") that other companies applied to the "Ural Bomber" program, including Rohrbach. Herr Griehl, unfortunatelly, never answered my questions on this topic, leaving me quite puzzled.
The death of General Walter Wever killed the project in 1936. Germany would lack a strategic air force for the entire lenght of WW2. Big mistake, luckily for us.
 

saturncanuck

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Wurger said:
The two known contenders were the Do 19 and the Ju 89. They got to hardware stage, and flew for some time, not being much appreciated. References were made ( Manfred Griehl in "Luftwaffe Over America") that other companies applied to the "Ural Bomber" program, including Rohrbach. Herr Griehl, unfortunatelly, never answered my questions on this topic, leaving me quite puzzled.
The death of General Walter Wever killed the project in 1936. Germany would lack a strategic air force for the entire lenght of WW2. Big mistake, luckily for us.
Yes, good point.

Any photos or specs?
 

airman

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What say wikipedia about it :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ural_bomber

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_89

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_19
 

Jemiba

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Yes , the Bf 165 isn't included in this sources. The only source I know, triggered by lark,
is "Willy Messerschmitt, Pionier der Luftfahrt und des Leichtbaues" by H.J. Ebert, J.B. Kaiser
and K.Peters.
As said before, only a mockup was built and some windtunnel testing was done, as said
in the mentioned book.
 

Wurger

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Hi,

I do have that same source. Very good book, actually. Jens, your "highly speculative" try to portray the Bf 165 is most probably the best there is. But weren`t the Bf 165 posterior to the "Ural Bomber" programme?
It`s incredible how no photos/drawings weren`t preserved of this mock-up. Even Hitler visited it, and was most impressed.
 

Jemiba

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"weren`t the Bf 165 posterior to the "Ural Bomber" programme? "

The Do 19 and Ju 89 were ordered in 1935, because these two companies were
regarded as the most experienced in the field of such heavy aircraft. The Ju 89
made its maiden flight in December 1936, the Do during summer 1936, whereas
the Bf 165 project is said to be "from 1937" in the mentioned book. But as the
start of the program was surely known to Messerschmitt, too, I could imagine,
that even earlier some thoughts were spent on a heavy bomber and that the
year 1937 only marks the official order for development.
In the pdf-file I just tried to summarise my thoughts about the Bf 165.
 

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airman

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Jemiba said:
"weren`t the Bf 165 posterior to the "Ural Bomber" programme? "

The Do 19 and Ju 89 were ordered in 1935, because these two companies were
regarded as the most experienced in the field of such heavy aircraft. The Ju 89
made its maiden flight in December 1936, the Do during summer 1936, whereas
the Bf 165 project is said to be "from 1937" in the mentioned book. But as the
start of the program was surely known to Messerschmitt, too, I could imagine,
that even earlier some thoughts were spent on a heavy bomber and that the
year 1937 only marks the official order for development.
In the pdf-file I just tried to summarise my thoughts about the Bf 165.
Thanks Jemiba ! ::) ;)
 

Artie Bob

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The timing of the Bf 165 might be more in line with the "Bomber A" program. Does anyone have a complete list of the entries (8-numbers or projects) in this competition? I have read a RLM comparative evaluation in the time frame of the Bf 165. BFW was heavily criticised because of the poor quality of engineering drawings and documentation, as well as the inability to meet schedule committments. At this time of very rapid expansion, it may be that BFW was overextended and unable to translate either concepts or protoypes into the the next stage efficiently.

Artie Bob
 

Wurger

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Hi,

I too think that these are from different programmes, but I`m not sure if the Bf 165 relates to the "Bomber A" one. The sources I have rule out any BFW tender.
I have read a RLM comparative evaluation in the time frame of the Bf 165. BFW was heavily criticised because of the poor quality of engineering drawings and documentation, as well as the inability to meet schedule committments
interesting statement. Anything more on this "Bomber A" programme? I recall something on the Junkers Ju 85 ;)

About other tenders on the "Bomber A", please take a look here:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4795.0/highlight,bomber%20a.html
 

airman

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I have a doubt : but there was projects of Do-19 with different engines from BMW Bramo ? ???
 

Antonio

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I can't match the third pic to any He-277 variant. Anybody can?.

Vietcong, I deleted two of the drawings you posted to avoid copyright issues. Could you please identify your sources?.

Many thanks,

Antonio
 

Vietcong

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pometablava said:
I can't match the third pic to any He-277 variant. Anybody can?.

Vietcong, I deleted two of the drawings you posted to avoid copyright issues. Could you please identify your sources?.

Many thanks,

Antonio

The third variant of the he 277 , I think was He 277 B-5
Sources
Luftwaffe Secret Projects:Stragetic Bombers
Book can be purchased in Amazon.com
 

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Kiwiguy

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pometablava said:
I can't match the third pic to any He-277 variant. Anybody can?.

Vietcong, I deleted two of the drawings you posted to avoid copyright issues. Could you please identify your sources?.

Many thanks,

Antonio
The He-277 had two variants the B and the V series. V series were obviously prototypes with BMW801E engines. Those flown included V9, V10, V26, V18. Others in the V series were built and allotted stkz, but apparently not flown.

Yes the second prototype He-277 flown had the "H" tail and it's Stamkeinzeichen was GA+QQ former He177 A-08 W.Nr.23. It was in fact designated the He-277B-5. It's powerplant would have been the Jumo 213-F with 2,060 hp each, giving a range of 4,500m.

Worth noting however that the Stamkeinzeichen in the image differs with that which I have provided. I have never been able to identify the stkz for the eighth He-277 flown and i wonder if this is a clue perhaps?

References
Hitler’s Last Weapons, Josef Garlinski, Magnum Books 1979
German Secret Weapons of the Second World War, Ian V Hogg, Stackpole Books 1999
Secret Weapons of World War II, William Breuer, John Wiley and Sons 2000
 

Baders Briar

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Dear Vietcong and Fellow WW II Aviation MYSTERY Fans:

Bader's Briar here...a first-time poster, as I just joined up over this past weekend.

I noticed that "Airman" here in this three-year-old thread mentioned asking Wikipedia about the Ural Bomber program, which pretty much died out after the June 3, 1936 death of General Walther Wever, the chief proponent for the Luftwaffe to have a solid strategic bombing capability. And ironically, that very same day in Berlin - where General Wever was headed for when his He 70 staff plane took off without its aileron gust locks disengaged, causing the fatal accident in the first place - the "Bomber A" design competition that resulted in the He 177A was first initiated by the RLM.

We've known about the He 177's problems before, and from what I've read about from the various books that were available up until the last decade's worth of time, there's continued to be a notable range of "facts" about the entire history of the "gruesome Griffin" as I've dubbed it, that seem to not truly have the "smell of truth" to pass this enthusiast's "sniff test".

The first book ever published that apparently DOES seem to have a serious degree of research behind it, into just about every detail about the bits and pieces of the He 177's entire history, is the Manfred Griehl and Joachim Dressel-authored volume that I've got a copy of in my personal aviation history library, and I am VERY glad to have my own copy of it.

Other replies in this forum that have mentioned the very same book that I'm speaking of are from "FightingIrish" at http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,11198.msg105880.html#msg105880 as post number 6 there from October 2010, and from "Blackkite" at http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5803.msg59062.html#msg59062 as post no. 17 in the second forum thread, apparently showing the cover of the original German language version of the book.

To go back to Airman's staement of "why not ask Wikipedia", heading for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_277 might be worth a serious look...as a WHOLE LOT of what is in chapter five of the English-language book by Griehl and Dressel is the basis of what is in the Wikipedia article.

And about the most "enlightening" passage in chapter 5 from that book comes near the end, in describing what ACTUALLY happened to both the He 274 high-altitude variant of the Griffin, and to what Pometablava and yourself were writing about the Heinkel firm's Amerika Bomber candidate, the He 277...I quote from page 203 of the Griehl-Dressel book...

"Suddenly, on 20 April 1944, three of the six He 274 prototypes as well as the option for the planned He 274A-0 pre-production series were cancelled. Only the He 274 V1-V3 and a static test airframe were now authorized to be built. Another victim of the red pencil was the safety cockpit with ejection seats. Shortly before this decision was announced, Heinkel was instructed by the RLM to suspend all work on the He 277. All components and parts in the process of manufacture were to be scrapped."

And when combined with what is also stated elsewhere in the book, and from Heinkel factory drawings reprinted (in a VERY nicely scannable format) in the book, it appears that what has been an "oft-told story" in practically every OTHER volume in the He 177's history...that a so-called "He 177B" was actually a "cover designation" for the never-completed He 277 - one of the ongoing parts of the He 177's history that I've always felt that stank like a month-old lobster regarding its veracity...is very firmly DISPELLED from an illustration on the bottom half of page 166 in the book, when the Heinkel "Typenblatt" 3-view general arrangement factory drawing for the "He 177B-5" as its title block states, clearly shows that IT IS the correct designation for the first and only "truly four-engined" variant airframe of the He 177A to fly on four inverted V-12 powerplants, each with its own propeller and annual radiator, and that on December 20, 1943, the He 177 V102 - the second of what would be three completed He 177B series prototypes (V101-V103) and one never-finished example (V104) - was the first-ever example of a "four-engined He 177 variant" to go aloft on four separately-nacelled "individual" powerplants.

Recorded "Stammkennzeichen" four-letter radio codes and airframe serial numbers for the four ordered He 177B prototype airframes go like this, according to Appendix 4 in the book, on the books' page 226...with my additions for clarity in [brackets]...

"V101 (NN+QQ/Wk.Nr. 535550)
A-3 rebuilt fo B-5 standard. Four separate engines. lateral paddles [drag rudders to simulate engine-out conditions, shown on book's pg.166 factory Typenblatt drawing]; used for performance determinations. On hand as trials aircraft August 1944, scrapped.

V102 (GA+QQ/Wk.Nr. 00 0023)
A-08/V9 rebuilt to B-5 standard and redesignated V102. Four separate engines,twin-fin/rudder assembly. Used for stability tests. Handed over to E-Stelle Rechlin August 1944, scrapped.

V103 (KM+TL/Wk.Nr. 550036)
A-5 rebuilt to B-5 standard. Four separate engines, quadruple-barreled [Hecklafette HL 131 V] tail turret. On hand as test aircraft (June 1944)., destroyed in air raid July [8,] 1944.

V104 (KM+TE/Wk.Nr. 550005)
A-5 rebuilt to B-5 standard. Pattern aircraft for He 177B-5 series. Believed destroyed in air raid before completion July [8,] 1944."


Add to that the apparent disapproval in late August 1942 by Goering himself of the DB 606 "coupled" powerplants, as recorded on pages 52 and 53 of the book as "welded-together engines", and one can see HOW I started disbelieving the oft-told story of a so-named He 177B" as ONLY being a "cover story" for an otherwise-shadowy, independently four-engined "He 277"...the fifth chapter relates how the He 277 actually became Heinkel's entry in the Amerika Bomber competition, and from the Heinkel factory's bombload chart on page 184, the He 277...in its definitive "He 219 family" fuselage appearance, complete with a nose gear...could have headed across the Atlantic to the USA with a three metric ton bombload, estimated to be capable of an 11,100 km (6,900 mile) complete flight distance from base to the target and back.

If one either has or has access to that fine volume, please get a good look at its pages...either from one's own or a friend's book collection, or from a big-enough local library that could have it on its shelves...and learn some never-before readable details on World War II's most enigmatic combat aircraft.

Yours Sincerely,

Bader's Briar.. ;)..!!
 

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Vahe Demirjian

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