It's not meant to be disheartening, but we shouldn't delude ourselves with fantasies where Europe is somehow still ahead of China in the military aviation business. Not even looking at the awful performance of Indian Rafales against Chinese supplied systems.
European industry has maintained an ability to develop high-end, boutique systems (Meteor, ECRS Mk2), yet without the scale of production that China has devoted to their equivalent systems. This seems to end up with European systems being on par with, or better than the competition when designed, yet outdated when they're fielded. We should take heart in that knowledge that European industry can build peer-level capabilities, and focus on accelerating the systems into service whilst they remain relevant.

As to the Indian performance, I'm inclined to believe that had the Indians been flying aircraft identical to the Pakistani systems, their performance would have remained similarly poor. It's not only the plane, but the networks that surround it, and in that area, the PAF thoroughly outclassed their Indian neighbours.
 
Radar?

It took the Eurofighter and Rafale until now to get Radars that aren't antiquated or laughably undersized. These aircraft are in service for multiple decades, meanwhile the PLAAF is flying jets with large GaN AESA radars for several years.

This doesn't even touch on other things like China having built like 400 J-20s in a couple years. A number that almost reaches the Eurofighter numbers despite decades of lead and totally eclipses the Rafale. And the J-35, the second indigenous stealth fighter from the Chinese, will extent the lead further. Meanwhile Europe hasn't brought a single stealth fighter into production and is only now adopting radar technology remotely comparable.

I, someone from Europe, cannot see how anyone could claim that China hasn't completely overtaken Europe in the military aviation sector. The best Europe has to offer is comparable to the second line jets of the PLAAF (Eurofighter and Rafale compared to J-16/J-16D). China is flying next generation prototypes while GCAP is still away from a demonstrator and FCAS is being sabotaged by Dassault's Trappier.

It's not meant to be disheartening, but we shouldn't delude ourselves with fantasies where Europe is somehow still ahead of China in the military aviation business. Not even looking at the awful performance of Indian Rafales against Chinese supplied systems.
Well the Europeans arent facing the Chinese now are they? Russia's been the main threat and they aint got much going in terms of aviation now got they?

China has temporarily got an edge over Europe.. but Europe can still match their tec.. just not had the need to untill now. Now the next gen shit is coming from Europe and it will match the Chinese stuff.. May verry well surpas them..

But if you are going to believe everything on the internet even the bloody indians have over taken the Europeans...

China has got a knife on their throat for a long time.. Europeans have not.. now the money is flowing in European defence tec again..
 
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Well the Europeans arent facing the Chinese now are they? Russia's been the main threat and they aint much going in terms of aviation now got they?

China has temporarily got an edge over Europe.. but Europe can still match their tec.. just not had the need to untill now. Now the next gen shit is coming from Europe and it will match the Chinese stuff.. May verry well surpas them..

But if you are going to believe everything on the internet even the bloody indians have over taken the Europeans...

China has got a knife on their throat for a long time.. Europeans have not.. now the money is flowing in European defence tec again..

I think it was Prof Justin Bronk who stated that many Western analysts expect an influx of Chinese technology into Russian systems in the 2030s and onwards. If that comes to pass, then Europe should be scaling their systems to match their Chinese, rather than their Russian, equivalents.

The issues remains that over the last 30 years, the industrial skills in Europe to match a peer adversary, such as China, have atrophied. Whilst the Europeans may not have had a requirement to continue investment, that doesn't negate the fact that it will take time to rebuild the capacity and capability of the sector. I find it difficult to believe that a capability that has suffered three decades of degradation can be returned to its former glory in just a single decade.

Indian defence procurement is a shitshow at the moment. They're arguably in a far worse place than Europe, with little hope of reprieve from a self-engineered capability crisis in the near, or even medium-term.
 
European industry has maintained an ability to develop high-end, boutique systems (Meteor, ECRS Mk2), yet without the scale of production that China has devoted to their equivalent systems. This seems to end up with European systems being on par with, or better than the competition when designed, yet outdated when they're fielded. We should take heart in that knowledge that European industry can build peer-level capabilities, and focus on accelerating the systems into service whilst they remain relevant.

As to the Indian performance, I'm inclined to believe that had the Indians been flying aircraft identical to the Pakistani systems, their performance would have remained similarly poor. It's not only the plane, but the networks that surround it, and in that area, the PAF thoroughly outclassed their Indian neighbours.
The timlines are definitely an issue. A shorter timline like GCAP sees a less advanced aircraft as a result. While FCAS incorporating more advanced systems like VCEs takes an additional 10 years. That's simply not sustainable and an awful look compared to what the Americans and Chinese pull off. And yes, we should measure ourselves against the Americans too. Which are also able to provide capable systems in larger quantity (albeit lesser quantity than their transpacific rivals).

A system that's behind the curve upon introduction is simply behind the rest, there's sadly no way to sugar coat it in my opinion.
 
A system that's behind the curve upon introduction is simply behind the rest, there's sadly no way to sugar coat it in my opinion.
Absolutely. It's a long, slow and most importantly expensive slog back to a peer level industrial and technological stance for Europe.

Whilst GCAP and FCAS are in and of themselves good for European industry, a frank conversation is required as to the realistic standing of the Europe MIC in comparison to their rivals in Russia, and their unwilling rivals in east Asia. Especially if, as it seems the major powers of Germany, Italy, the UK and France want to do, if European nations wish to project power not only against Russia and the Middle East, but out into the Pacific as well.
 
Well the Europeans arent facing the Chinese now are they? Russia's been the main threat and they aint got much going in terms of aviation now got they?

China has temporarily got an edge over Europe.. but Europe can still match their tec.. just not had the need to untill now. Now the next gen shit is coming from Europe and it will match the Chinese stuff.. May verry well surpas them..

But if you are going to believe everything on the internet even the bloody indians have over taken the Europeans...

China has got a knife on their throat for a long time.. Europeans have not.. now the money is flowing in European defence tec again..

No? GCAP is also developed by Japan, which is directly at odds with China. While the UK also runs hard rhetoric against China and feels like sailing their ships around their backyard as a clear sign that they are in the same boat as the US when it comes to Chinese geopolitical interests. Same with FCAS and it's requirement for French carrier capability. France doesn't need a CVN if they don't want to project power to the other side of the world. This leaves out potential exports too. So yes, we have to measure ourselves against the chinese. And against the F-47 as well on the international market of Trump was right about an export version.

As for Russian aviation, well, they have an indigenous stealth fighter in production and a second one in development. That's one indigenous stealth fighter in production and one in development more than the entire rest of Europe combined. Not a good look.

Let's not kid ourselves, we rested on our laurels and just cared about making bucks with what we already had on hand on the export market. New developments have been kicked down the road repeatedly and a couple silly UCAV concepts here and there that went nowhere don't change that. We should have kept up with the global development and should have developed and introduced alternatives to the likes of the F-35, J-35 and LTS. Now we're paying for the complacency and have fallen behind in critical areas and looking at service entries in the mid 2030s and 2040 respectively.

It's not good, we shouldn't pretend it's good and the European military aviation sector should get it's act together or be relegated towards the third row in the coming decades. As it stands now China and the US are running circles around Europe and laugh their asses off. Biggest achievement in recent years is a somewhat modern radar for the Eurofighter after two decades. I'd cry if it wasn't so laughable.
 
I expect Russia to collapse.. or best cas
I think it was Prof Justin Bronk who stated that many Western analysts expect an influx of Chinese technology into Russian systems in the 2030s and onwards. If that comes to pass, then Europe should be scaling their systems to match their Chinese, rather than their Russian, equivalents.

The issues remains that over the last 30 years, the industrial skills in Europe to match a peer adversary, such as China, have atrophied. Whilst the Europeans may not have had a requirement to continue investment, that doesn't negate the fact that it will take time to rebuild the capacity and capability of the sector. I find it difficult to believe that a capability that has suffered three decades of degradation can be returned to its former glory in just a single decade.

Indian defence procurement is a shitshow at the moment. They're arguably in a far worse place than Europe, with little hope of reprieve from a self-engineered capability crisis in the near, or even medium-term.
I expect Russia to collapse.. or best case China to invade Russia..

As i said... Now the money is flowing cold war style again in Europe.

Europe built new fighters in the 90's.. the smart thing is to upgrade them properly over their lifetime. As is whats happening now. Not to scrap them after 15 years.. next gen fighters are on their way..
 
Can we just be a bit careful with certain statements here?
What meets Western Criteria for components in military systems is at times a very high and demanding standard. One that is not easy to achieve.
So it's easy to say X is better, but if it's components don't meet certain standards, it's failure rate rather undermines it's superlative performance.

We know Communist/National Socialist governments care more about appearances than substance.

So I'd beware claims from China. They might technically be true, but the details and failures be heavily suppressed.
 
Not to scrap them after 15 years.. next gen fighters are on their way..

That's how you lose industrial knowledge and qualified workers. The US shipbuilding industry is experiencing the same thing, where one ship class every odd decades leaves large periods of nothing where workers switch towards more lucrative fields and never come back.

In the aviation sector the US and China can do that because there's always a new project around the corner on top of what's already there. Not in Europe where we have decades between programs because it's always a huge debate of it's a worthwhile investment every single time. And as no European country is able to develop an aircraft that meets modern air combat standards alone, it's bound to happen over and over again. Rafale and Gripen were most likely the last manned combat aircraft that were completely indigenous developments of any individual European nation.
 
No? GCAP is also developed by Japan, which is directly at odds with China. While the UK also runs hard rhetoric against China and feels like sailing their ships around their backyard as a clear sign that they are in the same boat as the US when it comes to Chinese geopolitical interests. Same with FCAS and it's requirement for French carrier capability. France doesn't need a CVN if they don't want to project power to the other side of the world. This leaves out potential exports too. So yes, we have to measure ourselves against the chinese. And against the F-47 as well on the international market of Trump was right about an export version.

As for Russian aviation, well, they have an indigenous stealth fighter in production and a second one in development. That's one indigenous stealth fighter in production and one in development more than the entire rest of Europe combined. Not a good look.

Let's not kid ourselves, we rested on our laurels and just cared about making bucks with what we already had on hand on the export market. New developments have been kicked down the road repeatedly and a couple silly UCAV concepts here and there that went nowhere don't change that. We should have kept up with the global development and should have developed and introduced alternatives to the likes of the F-35, J-35 and LTS. Now we're paying for the complacency and have fallen behind in critical areas and looking at service entries in the mid 2030s and 2040 respectively.

It's not good, we shouldn't pretend it's good and the European military aviation sector should get it's act together or be relegated towards the third row in the coming decades. As it stands now China and the US are running circles around Europe and laugh their asses off. Biggest achievement in recent years is a somewhat modern radar for the Eurofighter after two decades. I'd cry if it wasn't so laughable.

No? GCAP is also developed by Japan, which is directly at odds with China. While the UK also runs hard rhetoric against China and feels like sailing their ships around their backyard as a clear sign that they are in the same boat as the US when it comes to Chinese geopolitical interests. Same with FCAS and it's requirement for French carrier capability. France doesn't need a CVN if they don't want to project power to the other side of the world. This leaves out potential exports too. So yes, we have to measure ourselves against the chinese. And against the F-47 as well on the international market of Trump was right about an export version.

As for Russian aviation, well, they have an indigenous stealth fighter in production and a second one in development. That's one indigenous stealth fighter in production and one in development more than the entire rest of Europe combined. Not a good look.

Let's not kid ourselves, we rested on our laurels and just cared about making bucks with what we already had on hand on the export market. New developments have been kicked down the road repeatedly and a couple silly UCAV concepts here and there that went nowhere don't change that. We should have kept up with the global development and should have developed and introduced alternatives to the likes of the F-35, J-35 and LTS. Now we're paying for the complacency and have fallen behind in critical areas and looking at service entries in the mid 2030s and 2040 respectively.

It's not good, we shouldn't pretend it's good and the European military aviation sector should get it's act together or be relegated towards the third row in the coming decades. As it stands now China and the US are running circles around Europe and laugh their asses off. Biggest achievement in recent years is a somewhat modern radar for the Eurofighter after two decades. I'd cry if it wasn't so laughable.
Exactly Japan is also in GCAP.. facing China.
Has Japan made any comments about GCAP not being up to the task? No! Its being developed just for that task. Only remarks they made is that it needs to be made quickly. If Japan felt that the Chinese were light years ahead in tech they would have done everything they could to sign up with the Jankes.. but they dont.
 
Exactly Japan is also in GCAP.. facing China.
Has Japan made any comments about GCAP bot being uo to the task? No! Its being developed just for that task. Only remarks they made is that it needs to be made quickly. If Japan felt that the Chinese were light years ahead in tech the would have done everything they could to sign up with the Jankes.. but they dont.

Why would the Japanese industry, heavily dependent on the funding and work given to them by this program feel any need to discredit it openly? They want something that's better than their F-15Js and want to create jobs doing so. Standing up to China is secondary at best in that scenario. GCAP could be a literal brick and they'd not say anything about it in order to keep the funding and jobs for their workers.

Signing up for F-47 was never an option because of that very reason. On top of the nature of NGAD.
 
That's how you lose industrial knowledge and qualified workers. The US shipbuilding industry is experiencing the same thing, where one ship class every odd decades leaves large periods of nothing where workers switch towards more lucrative fields and never come back.

In the aviation sector the US and China can do that because there's always a new project around the corner on top of what's already there. Not in Europe where we have decades between programs because it's always a huge debate of it's a worthwhile investment every single time. And as no European country is able to develop an aircraft that meets modern air combat standards alone, it's bound to happen over and over again. Rafale and Gripen were most likely the last manned combat aircraft that were completely indigenous developments of any individual European nation.
Took 35+ years for the F35 to start replacing old F16.. will take 30+ years for the F47 to start replacing the F22.. so no if u start replacing brand new fighters after 15 years you are doing something wrong.
 
Why would the Japanese industry, heavily dependent on the funding and work given to them by this program feel any need to discredit it openly? They want something that's better than their F-15Js and want to create jobs doing so. Standing up to China is secondary at best in that scenario. GCAP could be a literal brick and they'd not say anything about it in order to keep the funding and jobs for their workers.

Signing up for F-47 was never an option because of that very reason. On top of the nature of NGAD.
They need something to counter China. They get a next gen heavy fighter to do so.. whats the problem? They needed something better than the F15 the F35 would do.. but it does not..
 
F47 will be available for allies of the US to not make the mistake of the F22.. even if its a 10% degraded one.. They wanted the F22 when it was available but was not allowed to buy it..
 
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Can we just be a bit careful with certain statements here?
What meets Western Criteria for components in military systems is at times a very high and demanding standard. One that is not easy to achieve.
So it's easy to say X is better, but if it's components don't meet certain standards, it's failure rate rather undermines it's superlative performance.

We know Communist/National Socialist governments care more about appearances than substance.

So I'd beware claims from China. They might technically be true, but the details and failures be heavily suppressed.
Good ol' argument when someone actually produces a better product, there is no more reason to believe any western sources than Chinese sources. In fact, I'd say western sources(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Postol#Patriot_missiles_in_Operation_Desert_Storm) have more reason to embellish their numbers due to having to actually sell their stuff to customers.

There is no reason to believe Chinese standards are any worse than EU/American standards other than trying to fit the Russian stereotype and pulling political arguments.
 
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Can we just be a bit careful with certain statements here?
What meets Western Criteria for components in military systems is at times a very high and demanding standard. One that is not easy to achieve.
So it's easy to say X is better, but if it's components don't meet certain standards, it's failure rate rather undermines it's superlative performance.

We know Communist/National Socialist governments care more about appearances than substance.

So I'd beware claims from China. They might technically be true, but the details and failures be heavily suppressed.
Can we also be careful in proclaiming an aircraft like GCAP will definitively be a world beater, best in class, superior in every regard compared to it's competitors? It's becoming increasingly obvious that Europe does not have a clear lead in technology over it's competitors in this space anymore.

It's not just failures that are heavily suppressed, everything, even China's successes, breakthroughs, will be heavily suppressed. China's military is so opaque, you can't just be assuming China only is suppressing it's failures, yet boasting about it's achievements. This is the wrong assumption to apply when comparing previous regimes to the current Chinese one.

You have official statements coming from Western sources, calling their fighters best in the world, zero competition, complete dominance. Yet none from official Chinese sources claiming the same from their end. Is this not also an effort to put on an appearance? Why are Chinese officials not bragging about flying demonstrators/prototypes? There is barely any acknowledgement that these flying articles, the J-36, and the J-50 even exist. Talk about caring more about appearances over substance.
 
Good ol' argument when someone actually produces a better product, there is no more reason to believe any western sources than Chinese sources. In fact, I'd say western sources(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Postol#Patriot_missiles_in_Operation_Desert_Storm) have more reason to embellish their numbers due to having to actually sell their stuff to customers.

There is no reason to believe Chinese standards are any worse than EU/American standards other than trying to fit the Russian stereotype and pulling political arguments.
No there be genuine issues with components from any part of the world meeting MilSpec standards.

You can run off a lot of components, but only a limited number will meet the standards set. The rest end up in varying levels of civilian industry, depending on their grading.

It's not trivial and to be fair, western economies being too focused on short-term profit. Have effectively starved industry of the finance needed. Getting industry upto scratch is no small endeavour.

China may be reaching such achievements, and there be some good stories coming out of the willingness to invest in the long-term, but it's not certain across their economy and we know of fundamental issues that have plagued them in the recent past.
Precision presses failing tolerances on product....because the machine is set on a earth packed floor for example.

This is the country that has been caught painting the dead grass green after all.

So I'd beware grandiose claims from out of China.
 
It's becoming increasingly obvious that Europe does not have a clear lead in technology over it's competitors in this space anymore.
I frankly wonder where does it even come from.
When any European fighter aircraft even had it since the very dawn of jet age?
Too much "western" out there, which really only mean American.
 
No there be genuine issues with components from any part of the world meeting MilSpec standards.

You can run off a lot of components, but only a limited number will meet the standards set. The rest end up in varying levels of civilian industry, depending on their grading.

It's not trivial and to be fair, western economies being too focused on short-term profit. Have effectively starved industry of the finance needed. Getting industry upto scratch is no small endeavour.

China may be reaching such achievements, and there be some good stories coming out of the willingness to invest in the long-term, but it's not certain across their economy and we know of fundamental issues that have plagued them in the recent past.
Precision presses failing tolerances on product....because the machine is set on a earth packed floor for example.

This is the country that has been caught painting the dead grass green after all.

So I'd beware grandiose claims from out of China.
Similar things happen in every single country including the US as long as there are people willing to make a quick buck at the expense of someone else. Yet I don't see anyone doubting US claims despite past high profile issues even in the military industrial complex. BTW, China also have their own MilSpec called GJB and is known for being rather strict with procurement. It's unfair to take a unrelated random civilian example(Much less regulated compared to military) and say surely the rest of their MIC is also terrible.
 
Similar things happen in every single country including the US as long as there are people willing to make a quick buck at the expense of someone else. Yet I don't see anyone doubting US claims despite past high profile issues even in the military industrial complex. BTW, China also have their own MilSpec called GJB and is known for being rather strict with procurement. It's unfair to take a unrelated random civilian example(Much less regulated compared to military) and say surely the rest of their MIC is also terrible.
No the example was related to turbofan components if memory serves and was one of many reasons why China lagged on engines. Compared to Russia let alone the West.

All MilSpec everywhere is demanding. Anyone telling you otherwise isn't being honest.
Your CCD for an IR homing AAM for example has to take some pretty brutal conditions compared with civilian products.

Skimping on those standards gets you more components, but increases the failure rate.

Now I'm not talking about US or European standards and what scale of products meet them. But if I was, I'd say we're talking limited numbers of everything, and sheer scale of civilian output doesn't translate into military specifications compliant products and that relates to China.

Just because they can churn out lots of civilian stuff doesn't mean they're any better at the military side
 
No the example was related to turbofan components if memory serves and was one of many reasons why China lagged on engines. Compared to Russia let alone the West.
FYI, China is a major producer of turfoban components like compressor and turbine blades for western manufacturers like Safran/RR and even GE. I feel like most member's impression on the Chinese aeroengine industry is a good 10 years out of date, they've improved leaps and bounds since then. If fact a patent for a certain engine(Very likely WS-15 derivative for their STOVL project) listed a TIT up to 2250K which is more than what is known for the best Russian engine and right up there with the F-135. Lifespan for the newest WS-10 variants have allegedly surpassed Russian engines and is competitive with western designs of similar generation and time period.
 
Can we also be careful in proclaiming an aircraft like GCAP will definitively be a world beater, best in class, superior in every regard compared to it's competitors? It's becoming increasingly obvious that Europe does not have a clear lead in technology over it's competitors in this space anymore.

It's not just failures that are heavily suppressed, everything, even China's successes, breakthroughs, will be heavily suppressed. China's military is so opaque, you can't just be assuming China only is suppressing it's failures, yet boasting about it's achievements. This is the wrong assumption to apply when comparing previous regimes to the current Chinese one.

You have official statements coming from Western sources, calling their fighters best in the world, zero competition, complete dominance. Yet none from official Chinese sources claiming the same from their end. Is this not also an effort to put on an appearance? Why are Chinese officials not bragging about flying demonstrators/prototypes? There is barely any acknowledgement that these flying articles, the J-36, and the J-50 even exist. Talk about caring more about appearances over substance.
Just cause i called the GCAP a world beater dosnt mean it will be ahead of everyone else..

OP claimed the GCAP would be some kind of second tier monkey model of an aircraft. I just pointed out that from what is known it does look like it will be the real deal well capable to match the new projects from the US and China.
 
FYI, China is a major producer of turfoban components like compressor and turbine blades for western manufacturers like Safran/RR and even GE.
Lets just recognise that foreign (to China) firms have invested in that production and many a foreigner has had to oversee that until quite recently.
Those selfsame firms like RR, GE and Safran locate their prime facilities and staff in their 'home' states. So dismissing these firms ability is no solid argument.

The UK, Italy and Japan possess more than sufficient resources to achieve their goals.

Now whether those goals be the optimal set for the future is another question.
 
Here's a question on the new engine. Is it to be three shaft?
This after all is one of RR's strengths.
 
Here's a question on the new engine. Is it to be three shaft?
This after all is one of RR's strengths.
RR IHI No matter which side takes the lead, it will be two shafts.
because the IHI prototypes and the RR engines shown at GC all have two shafts.
I think the most likely scenario is an engine that combines an IHI core engine with an RR integrated generator.
 
Using IHI's core engine — does that mean the new engine will be heavily influenced by the XF9 after all?
 
China is behind in Powerplants, Radar, LO coatings, etc.

Anyone can make a 'stealthy looking airframe'...
China may or may not be behind in these items when compared to US. It's an intersting topic which we don't really have a good answer to.

When compared to Europe - it's honestly laughable, because in the entirety of Europe, all aircraft that even compete in your whole list ("powerplants, Radar, LO coatings") are American-produced F-35s; allied access to their maintenance is limited precisely in a way to deny them core know-hows.

There is still not a single AESA eurofighter in european service, and first ones will only appear this year (Italy). Half of French air force (not navy) Rafale fleet is indeed AESA - that's ~same number as operational Su-57s (which are completely out of their league, and that includes radar by any metric we can have access to). There are indeed few Gripen Es in service, and few here means a dozen. Was Selex a world beater in GaN? Yes, it was. But practical implications are nil, as Gripen isn't a major presense, and it takes so slow to transfer to other European airframes, that it is like 80% certain that they will be again beaten by Russia.

No, not anyone can make a "stealthy looking airframe". Europe, as of 2025, can't, and won't be able to till 2030s. Hypothetical&theoretical engineering capability here is secondary: you can't fight with hypotheticals; what matters is deployed products.
And even those hypotheticals are bad, as Europe is still without any comprehensive stealth experience. Even Japan, which isn't in primary aerospace league, had a goddamn demonstrator.

Comparing with China is laughable. China has "powerplants, radar, lo coatings, etc." in production for almost a decade. It is entering it's second stage in this field as we argue, and has opened the third page even(J-36, J-SY).

Yes, EU engines are still better. This is not a generational difference, and overall doesn't really bring much decisive capability difference.
Decisive difference is that even without J-20, AESA J-10C (functional counterpart to Eurofighter) finished it's entire PLAAF production run before Europe even managed first native AESA eurofighters. And in the entire generation, Europe still hasn't really touched F-22 (which appeared barely later than major eurocanards).

As if it's not enough, we're here in GCAP thread, i.e. UK/Italy/Japan. None of these particular countries produced competitive native fighter in time for their generation since the dawn of Space age. Sweden and France did.
Be it Eurofighter in F-22 era, or Tornado deploying into an established F-15 and F-16 world together with Mig-29 and Su-27.
Time for some humility.
 
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Using IHI's core engine — does that mean the new engine will be heavily influenced by the XF9 after all?
This is just my speculation.
RR has not yet completed a demonstration engine, but IHI has already completed work to make further improvements based on the test results of the XF9-1.

戦闘機用エンジンシステムに関する研究"Research on fighter engine systems"
https://www.mod.go.jp/atla/research/ats2024/pdf_exhi_pos/p-28.pdf令和6年is the year 2024

Joint design work between Avio , RR and IHI has already begun under the project name 次期戦闘機用エンジンシステム"Next Generation Fighter Engine System," but the division of labor is unclear.
Because we know IHI's budget, but we don't know Avio and RR's budget.
次期戦闘機(その2)(2)次期戦闘機用エンジンシステム(その1)~ 次期戦闘機(その5)(2)次期戦闘機用エンジンシステム(その4)
https://jm2040.blogspot.com/2020/11/f3-dev.html
 
I think some things can be seen from the compressor stages of the GCAP engine model and the fuselage model modifications, but I am not a professional and completely welcome challenges to my views.

1
I saw some people on Twitter using the first picture to prove there's a variable cycle, because the engine in the first picture seems to have three ducts above but only two below.
However, from the reflection in the glass in the second picture where Shigeru Ishiba is, it can be seen that the so-called "third duct" above the engine in the first picture is actually an illusion caused by shadows or a pole.
Both pictures are from "DESI JAPAN" in May this year (although to my knowledge, this engine model first appeared at last year's Vandenberg Air Show). This corroborates the previous statements by engineers that the engine will not adopt a variable cycle, at least not at present.

2
The engine in both pictures has an integrated coaxial generator, which should be their confidence to increase the power generation of a single engine to 1MW.

3
Most strikingly, this monster engine has an 8-stage fan (accurately, low-pressure compressor), and a 10-stage high-pressure compressor, with a seemingly low bypass ratio.
This indicates that this engine is designed for a high-altitude, high-speed air superiority interceptor. Only when considering very high-altitude operating environments would so many compressor stages be designed. Air superiority interceptors are also widely recognized as the core requirements for both the UK and Japan.
At the same time, increasing so many compressor stages greatly improves the overall pressure ratio and adiabatic efficiency, leading to significant improvements in fuel efficiency at both high and low altitudes. However, considering they abandoned the variable cycle, and the surge challenge brought by low altitude, and most importantly, traditional engines are inherently good at high-altitude, high-speed performance, there is reason to believe that they will focus on optimizing high-altitude performance, while compromising on low-altitude and low-speed performance.
The CG animation and model of XA100 show it as an engine with a 2-stage low-pressure compressor and a 7-stage high-pressure compressor. We really have reason to believe that the thrust of the GCAP engine will be the world's highest at that time.

4
Momosir mentioned above that the IHI and RR models are two shafts. I don't know which RR engine he was referring to, but for now, it seems IHI's engine is temporarily using the XF9 model. It's clear that the monster engine is definitively the GCAP engine (at least the current placeholder version).
I personally cannot tell at all whether this engine is twin-spool or triple-spool, but so many compressor stages will bring huge surge challenges. I speculate that a triple-spool design is likely a way to solve this problem.

5
Although the appearance of the second version of the model is somewhat controversial on this forum (well, to be honest—ugly), there should be significant progress in all-aspect stealth. Although it is often said not to estimate RCS area with the naked eye, I believe physical reflection area still has reference value.
The first version had separate V-tails from the wings, with the V-tails connected outside the protruding engine at the rear. This meant that radar waves from ground radar and early warning aircraft with limited flight altitude could illuminate the tail, especially from the side view.
The second version integrated the wing and fuselage, enlarged the wing area, and moved the V-tails above the wings. Additionally, these V-tails are clearly much smaller than those of the F-35 and F-22, which means that radar waves from below will be blocked by the large wings, whether from the front or side. This significantly improves anti-long-wave radar effectiveness. As for radars on enemy sixth-generation fighters at the same altitude, a V-tail is not a major issue, as sixth-generation fighters primarily guard against long-wave radar, not to mention that V-tails can also bring advantages like maneuverability.
It's worth noting that there is a sixth-generation fighter, despite being touted as "tailless," has a huge third air intake that doesn't even offer maneuverability advantages. Yet, miraculously, in the internet military circles, being tailless means victory, and no one cares if it has something even stranger than a V-tail.
Considering the news published by bobbymike, BAE director Jonny Moreton stated that the GCAP second version model is definitely not the final shape, so we won't discuss this aspect too much further.

6
Variable cycle technology is not flawless; it also has its "troubles." The third duct would make the engine diameter larger.
This means that under the same technological conditions, if we want an engine with the diameter of an F119, we would get a variable cycle engine with less thrust than an F119; if we want an engine with F119-level thrust, we would get a variable cycle engine with a larger diameter than an F119. This directly relates to the frontal area and high-speed drag of the aircraft, and engineers must make trade-offs.

At the same time, the third duct will be completely closed in high-speed mode to reduce the bypass ratio, but the valves will still cause drag, and various variable structures will bring extra weight. These mechanical complexities are the price variable cycle pays for achieving "versatility."
Therefore, my idea is that the increased diameter and frontal area brought by the third duct of the variable cycle engine hinder its high-speed performance, possibly not performing better than the GCAP engine.
While traditional low-bypass ratio engines excel in high-speed conditions, they must anchor a compromise point, so their performance in any specific condition cannot be optimal.
The GCAP engine, however, has an exaggerated number of compressor stages, as well as lower drag and lighter weight compared to a variable cycle engine of the same class. This gives it excellent fuel efficiency in high-speed conditions, while also increasing fuel efficiency in low-speed conditions. So, while not as good as a variable cycle in low-speed environments, it is still better than a traditional fixed cycle.

That is, variable cycle can achieve a grade of B in all conditions.
A traditional low-bypass ratio fixed cycle engine, due to needing to anchor a compromise point in various conditions, can only achieve a C+ in its home ground of high-altitude, high-speed conditions, a C in low-altitude, high-speed conditions, and only a D in low-altitude, low-speed and high-altitude, low-speed conditions.
The GCAP engine, relying on its exaggerated compressor stages and optimization for high-speed conditions, can achieve an A in high-altitude, high-speed conditions, a B in low-altitude, high-speed conditions (facing surge challenges, but if engineers solve them well, it can still perform impressively), and the fuel efficiency improvement brought by the compressor stages, while not as good as variable cycle, can still achieve a C++ in low-altitude, low-speed and low-altitude, high-speed environments.

I guess these are what RR engineers meant by "the trade-off between the cost and the capability is a pretty fine one." Considering that the GCAP engine is already quite heavy due to its excessive compressor stages, perhaps they cannot accept adding variable cycle technology to build a larger and heavier engine.
Therefore, they focus more on thrust and frontal area, fuel efficiency in high-speed conditions, and believe that increasing compressor stages, adopting variable stator vanes, triple-spool design, and other technologies can optimize fuel efficiency to a certain extent. After all, they might prefer an 'air overlord' rather than an 'all-rounder'.
 

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It's worth noting that there is a sixth-generation fighter, despite being touted as "tailless," has a huge third air intake that doesn't even offer maneuverability advantages. Yet, miraculously, in the internet military circles, being tailless means victory, and no one cares if it has something even stranger than a V-tail.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd heard that the other major aspect limiting all-aspect stealth was large intake design. It does seem odd that Chengdu have added a third large source of radar reflections.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd heard that the other major aspect limiting all-aspect stealth was large intake design. It does seem odd that Chengdu have added a third large source of radar reflections.
In most situations, upper intake isn't visible outright, and it doesn't produce corner reflectors from exposed aspects(side, rear) at undesirable scales.
Especially at range (Earth isn't flat).

Unlike vertical stabilizers, which tend to both stick out from the front(not being in aerodynamic shadow is part of their job), and produce corners from side/rear aspect.

In any case, it's 3rd engine of a larger aircraft. Shenyang one doesn't have it.
 
3
Most strikingly, this monster engine has an 8-stage fan (accurately, low-pressure compressor), and a 10-stage high-pressure compressor, with a seemingly low bypass ratio.

GCAP demonstrator model seems like just doesn't omit stators for fan and compressor.
Model configuration will be FIGV+3fan(1fan+2LPC)+5HPC+1HPT+1LPT.

XA100model will be ? + 2fan +(3rd stream) + 1LPC + 7HPC + 2HPT + 2LPT from picture.
 
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Thanks for the thorough explanation. I was familiar each iteration of the design, but I'd never heard the concept class terminology used before.
Strictly speaking, they're not iterations, as many of them were worked on in parallel. We just learned about them in a linear way, making it appear that there was some kind of iterative evolution.
 
How much experience does BAE have in developing and fielding radar absorbent material? Is there any information on whether the GCAP fighter will use a ceramic RAM for improved durability?

As an aside, did the Taranis demonstrator use RAM, or rely purely on stealth shaping?
 
How much experience does BAE have in developing and fielding radar absorbent material? Is there any information on whether the GCAP fighter will use a ceramic RAM for improved durability?

As an aside, did the Taranis demonstrator use RAM, or rely purely on stealth shaping?
In research and development....since inception. Testing on Canberras during the 50's and 60’s.
In application.....In various small ways on even Tornado or Typhoon but what beyond that we have clarity on is......unclear.
Remember full LO design concepts getting Testing to various scales certainly predates FOAS and Replica at full scale was definitely funded to get at least a decent degree of parity for Tier 1 status on JSF.

UK was one of the few the US felt it could sell F119 to and for a while the A12 Avenger was penciled in as Tornado successor.
That's not a trivial level of trust and certainly encompasses the belief the UK had the ability to do it's own thing if desired.
 
It must be remembered that BAE, BAe nor BAC and their ancestors did not develop RAM per se.
Specialist companies did that, notably Plessey (later Plessey Microwave Materials, not sure who owns it these days) and Woodville Polymers (acquired by Dowty as Dowty Signature Management now Trelleborg Signature Management - mostly these days submarine anechoic tiles).
 

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