Typhoon vs Rafale

[Ainen]

For Rafale, I think the radar just seem unnecessary small. It RCS is roughly the same as Eurofighter, Gripen, F-16 bunch, yet its radar is smallest. Against, F-16, sure we can argue that Rafale radar is smaller because it need space for IRST system. But then Gripen and Eurofighter also have space for IRST and they carry a decently big radar for their size.

Is it unnecessary small if it provides enough capability for combat s/a and fire control?
If it's enough, then it isn't Rafale which is unnecessary small, it's others who can be considered bigger than absolutely necessary... especially since Rafale to this very day leads both gripen and eurofoghter by whole two generations of front ends(Ecrs mk.0 still rare export only; Raven - not IOC yet).
Ultimately, while rafale is radical, very few jets since after 1960s deliberately go for larger radome sizes as design goal. It's simpler to provide necessary specs via better radar tech, rather than brute force.

P.s. OSF is bigger than pirate variations - larger backend, two optical heads...and same small nose gives it unique look down capability.

APG-79 were said to not only reduce RCS but also double detection range of old APG-73

It was, but I remember there were interviews from superbug drivers, that for pure air combat apg-73 and -79 hornets were equal. I'll try finding it.

 

[Ronny]

It was, but I remember there were interviews from superbug drivers, that for pure air combat apg-73 and -79 hornets were equal. I'll try finding it.

I think you might mis remember when they compared Hornet and early Super hornet?. Early SH also use APG-73.

 

[paralay]

The difference in total combat effectiveness between these aircraft is 4% in favor of the Typhoon
In air-to-air operations, the victory is on the side of Rafale, + 9.3 %

 

[GTX]

The difference in total combat effectiveness between these aircraft is 4% in favor of the Typhoon
In air-to-air operations, the victory is on the side of Rafale, + 9.3 %

Based upon?

 

[BonPlan2]

I’d pick the Rafale for its versatility and operational flexibility, though the Typhoon excels in raw air superiority.

A previous french Rafale pilot said : Rafale is not the best in any field, but it is very good in all.
All is said.

 

[BonPlan2]

4.5 gen like Rafale and Gripen seem a bit disappointing in RCS and radar department. Not even better than the legacy F-16 block 52+

are you serious ? If it is globally true for Gripen C/D it is not for Rafale and Gripen E.
I think you are at least 13 years late.
Since 2013 all the Rafale are fitted with AESA radar. any F16 or SH18 or F15 or EF2000 with mechanical antenna is outdated.

 

[paralay]

Based upon?

paralay-tab

line 202 - 265

 

[galgot]

paralay-tab

line 202 - 265

An independent and completely unbiased source . Thank you very much.

 

[Ainen]

Since 2013 all the Rafale are fitted with AESA radar. any F16 or SH18 or F15 or EF2000 with mechanical antenna is outdated.

In detection range it may not necessarily be the case.

Furthermore, as far as I understand, there's no significant difference in ECCM between pesa and aesa RBE, as it was a front end upgrade.
I.e. difference should still be largely limited to directional diagram over PESA(+range to better match meteor)?

A previous french Rafale pilot said : Rafale is not the best in any field, but it is very good in all.

Tbh never understood how they achieve that on MICAs. But then again, Rafale export success began almost exactly from meteor onwards.

 

[BonPlan2]

In detection range it may not necessarily be the case.

Furthermore, as far as I understand, there's no significant difference in ECCM between pesa and aesa RBE, as it was a front end upgrade.
I.e. difference should still be largely limited to directional diagram over PESA(+range to better match meteor)?

Tbh never understood how they achieve that on MICAs. But then again, Rafale export success began almost exactly from meteor onwards.

About range : RBE2AESA has better range versus mechanical CAPTOR (even if this last one is bigger). I expect CAPTOR AESA to be better.

for every radar, AESA eccm is better than PESA one (lower secondary lobes). In the RBE2 case PESA apperture is +/- 60°, AESA is +/- 70°.

MICA : the MICA range came from the french air forces rule : the pilot had to identify positively its target before opening the fire. Legacy MICA range is on par with OSF max identification range. Meteor has been integrated on Rafale just to not let Meteor on the sole Gripen and EF2000 for export reasons. I think French air forces in the 90's & 2000's had no real BVR tactics.

1st Rafale customer, Egypt, was not authorized to have Meteor.... at least at the beginning (I don't know yet).

 

[Ainen]

MICA : the MICA range came from the french air forces rule : the pilot had to identify positively its target before opening the fire. Legacy MICA range is on par with OSF max identification range. Meteor has been integrated on Rafale just to not let Meteor on the sole Gripen and EF2000 for export reasons. I think French air forces in the 90's & 2000's had no real BVR tactics.

1st Rafale customer, Egypt, was not authorized to have Meteor.... at least at the beginning (I don't know yet).

Well, French doctrine is French doctrine, but customers tend to want bvr(furthermore, cool factor from km numbers is a thing).
Egypt fits, as they had(still don't have) effectively no access to western BVR weapons

 

[galgot]

About range : RBE2AESA has better range versus mechanical CAPTOR (even if this last one is bigger). I expect CAPTOR AESA to be better.

for every radar, AESA eccm is better than PESA one (lower secondary lobes). In the RBE2 case PESA apperture is +/- 60°, AESA is +/- 70°.

MICA : the MICA range came from the french air forces rule : the pilot had to identify positively its target before opening the fire. Legacy MICA range is on par with OSF max identification range. Meteor has been integrated on Rafale just to not let Meteor on the sole Gripen and EF2000 for export reasons. I think French air forces in the 90's & 2000's had no real BVR tactics.

1st Rafale customer, Egypt, was not authorized to have Meteor.... at least at the beginning (I don't know yet).

Btw, I remember reading (but maybe I'm mistaken, been some time) that the MICA IR sensors were linked and could be used for IR identification in addition to the OSF. So that if you had a MICA IR on each wings tips, that would give 3 IR sensors datasets fused together feeding the situation awareness displays.

 

[Ainen]

Btw, I remember reading (but maybe I'm mistaken, been some time) that the MICA IR sensors were linked and could be used for IR identification in addition to the OSF. So that if you had a MICA IR on each wings tips, that would give 3 IR sensors datasets fused together feeding the situation awareness displays.

Yes, they do mention that often. My guess it isn't so much for fusion(fusing optics feed on 1990s electronics?) as it is for expanding envelope (OSF has very good visibility downwards, but it of course won't nearly match uncaged seeker).
Picture won't be great(esp compared to TV), but enough for WVR positive id.

But in a way it's ironic how Rafale is so much an ideal desert storm aircraft (or better brawl over Fulda), where all long range combat was just a cuirassier pistol salvo before going in hard with a sword.
Totally unlike caracol of non-stealth BVR combat prevalent nowadays in less congested theaters.

 

[BonPlan2]

Btw, I remember reading (but maybe I'm mistaken, been some time) that the MICA IR sensors were linked and could be used for IR identification in addition to the OSF. So that if you had a MICA IR on each wings tips, that would give 3 IR sensors datasets fused together feeding the situation awareness displays.

Yes, MICA IR sensor can be used for IR detection & identification. I'm not sure it is usefull when OSF is on board (not the case of all fench Rafale). I think OSF sensors are best.

 

[F-2]

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xuvJhhsmr6w


Typhoon vs F-16AM