Top Gun: which fighter would come out on top?

uk 75

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
27 September 2006
Messages
5,744
Reaction score
5,633
I genuinely dont know the answer to this one. Growing up with the F14 which I first saw in artists impressions in the late 60s I always figured a Tomcat suitably armed and piloted was more than a match for any other fighter. Was it? Could it still hold up against a Typhoon, Rafale or F35?
 
No it can't. Just combination of avoinics, ECM suite and weaponry already makes it much less useful than any of the above. Add some stealth to the mix - and chances of winning in duel are statistically insignificant.
 
Many thanks for these clear answers.

To add a couple of questions:

Can any of the current Russian or Chinese fighters hold their own against an F35 or Typhoon (I left out F22 as there don't seem to be be many of them)?

Which is the West's best Top Gun?
 
Depends on "hold their own" definition in that case. And Typhoon is not even a good contester here from western side due to some heavy drawbacks it have, one of main being mechanically scanned radar.
As for F-22 - it is good to leave it aside not only because of not being too numerous (cuz it isn't only by US Airforce metric), but because it has in fact very little to offer over mentioned F-35. Yes, better speed characteristics, but they are of more limited usefulness due to weapons release speeds. Radar is not drastically superior (if at all), but everything else is inferior to absent at all. No DAS, no IRST, no integrated ECM. With possible introduction of DIRCM of F-35 gap in avionics with be even bigger. So biggest winning point of F-22 left is close combat, which is quite possible in case of meeting of two LO aircrafts but is not gamechanger per se.
 
Last edited:
Many thanks for these clear answers.

To add a couple of questions:

Can any of the current Russian or Chinese fighters hold their own against an F35 or Typhoon (I left out F22 as there don't seem to be be many of them)?

Which is the West's best Top Gun?
By current Chinese and Russian fighter, do you mean J-20, J-31, Su-57 or do you mean Su-35S, J-10, J-11?
 
Dogfighting or BFM (Basic Fighter Maneuvers, ACM involves multiple aircraft and defensive and offensive maneuvering) maybe what you are specifically asking about and the relevance of the F-14's BFM performance in comparison to modern fighter aircraft. Beyond the weapon's capability outside of the BFM gun envelope (i.e. the merge and a circle fight) there are two performance indicators that drive the BFM fight: instantaneous turn rate and sustained turn rate. The first is how fast you can turn the nose of the aircraft on to the target aircraft and the second is how quickly you can turn while maintaining energy (0 speed loss). The F-14 BFM performance is still good compared to modern aircraft, however when against the latest aircraft it has disadvantages and when coupled with the latest targeting and weapon systems the F-14 is at a disadvantage. There are some interesting sustained turn rate analysis graphs available online that show a comparison of fighter aircraft's turning ability.
 
Last edited:
Many thanks for these clear answers.

To add a couple of questions:

Can any of the current Russian or Chinese fighters hold their own against an F35 or Typhoon (I left out F22 as there don't seem to be be many of them)?

Which is the West's best Top Gun?
By current Chinese and Russian fighter, do you mean J-20, J-31, Su-57 or do you mean Su-35S, J-10, J-11?
Good point. Being greedy, what about all of them?
 
Good point. Being greedy, what about all of them?
J-20 = F-35 = Su-57 > Typhoon = Su-35S > J-10
This is a very rough prediction because for the first 3 there are too many unknown information but they are likely better than the later 3 due to their stealth advantage.
This is my subjective opinion but among J-20, F-35, Su-57:
Su-57 has the most variety of sensors, able to carry heaviest weapon and will be the most maneuverable.
J-20 if it get proper engine will be the fastest one in top speed and supersonic acceleration and possibly highest altitude.
F-35 has the lowest IR, visual and radar signature along with the most variety of unique weapons like spear-ew, jnaam, HEL..etc
 
Last edited:
In my humble opinion (on an approx. Overall basis, which is a bit reductive):
1st tier: F-22
2nd tier: F-35, J-20
3rd tier: Su57, Typhoon, Rafale
4th tier: Gripen E/F, F-15X, Su-35, J-10, F-16V, F-18E/F, J-16
5th tier: MIG-35, Su-30SM,
6th tier: LCA, JF-17, FA-50

I’ve probably forgotten one....
Intentionally not included aircraft that are still very much in development only - South Korea’s and Turkey’s different projects, etc.

The obvious differences for different variants of each type.

Re: the F-14 I'm a real fan but unfortunately it never reached full potential (even the F-14D never had AMRAAM integrated) so while it might have limited shot against the 6th tier, otherwise not so much....
 
Last edited:
Hard to tell one gives an overall RCS, the other just gives a frontal aspect RCS. One states radar performances the other has not or if there has been any changes in the aircrafts EW systems or radars, etc.
 
Typhoon = Su-35S
Would argue with that heavily. And other "=" are quiestionable in terms of role and specific task.
J-20 if it get proper engine will be the fastest one in top speed and supersonic acceleration and possibly highest altitude.
That one is BIG question since some aerodynamic points in it not be good AT ALL for speedx exceeding Mach 2.
 
1st tier: F-22
2nd tier: F-35, J-20
3rd tier: Su57, Typhoon, Rafale
4th tier: Gripen E/F, F-15X, Su-35, J-10, F-16V, F-18E/F, J-16
5th tier: MIG-35, Su-30SM,
Is it me or you just put every russian plane at one tier lower than it belongs?..
 
A Super tomcat with Phonenix should be at least able to kill a F-16 Block 60. Against stealth aircraft however, the Phoenix long range edge would be negated...

...and F-35 superior to Rafale and Typhoon ? is that a joke ? a bomb truck with the arodynamics of a led brick, armed with 2 or 4 AMRAAMs, vs Meteor-armed Eurocanards ?
 
...and F-35 superior to Rafale and Typhoon ? is that a joke ? a bomb truck with the arodynamics of a led brick, armed with 2 or 4 AMRAAMs, vs Meteor-armed Eurocanards ?
Depending of role, but still - yes. At the very least Typhoon, at the very least because of drastic sensor suite superiority.
 
Ahem.... it is you
Okaaay... I think I can see pattern but will dare to ask nonethless: any reasoning for such placement or you just "feel that way"?

I’m really not looking for an argument and this is all highly subjective so I understand that others will subjectively have different ranking.

Re: the Su-57 I marked it down from the 3rd tier because of what appears to be it’s “different” approach re: stealth and it’s undoubtedly inferior avionics and sensors versus the US fighters in the 1st & 2nd tier (the information flowing from the Indian rejection helping to inform this). In that sense it is perhaps closer to Eurofighter and Rafale, with whatever slight stealth advantages being balanced by again that sensor/ avionic inferiority.

Re: the Su-35 by pure airframe it is inferior to the 1st & 2nd tier who will also again also have equal or superior avionics/ sensors. So it may be close between a very early non-upgraded Eurofighter or Rafale but later versions pull away from the Su-35.

Probably being a bit tough on the Su-30SM, the Su-30’s in general being the best compromise in terms of cost and capability the Russians currently have.

While the MIG-35; even Russia only buying very limited numbers of that to keep factories open etc. Unfortunately now an aircraft you only buy if you are made (Russia) or if Russia won’t sell you a Flanker variant due to wider political concerns (Egypt, re: Israel).
 
I seeeeeeeeeeee. Don't think there is any point in discussing this at such level of "analysis"...
 
A Super tomcat with Phonenix should be at least able to kill a F-16 Block 60. Against stealth aircraft however, the Phoenix long range edge would be negated...

...and F-35 superior to Rafale and Typhoon ? is that a joke ? a bomb truck with the arodynamics of a led brick, armed with 2 or 4 AMRAAMs, vs Meteor-armed Eurocanards ?
“Super Tomcat” equals F-14D, right?
The F-14D that probably couldn’t get a long range Phoenix kill on a fully modern opponent like a F-16V. And then faces being killed by a AIM-120C given it’s own now out of date ECM systems.
Unfortunately there were never any “Super” F-14s beyond the F-14D so that’s as super as F-14 actually got.
 
I seeeeeeeeeeee. Don't think there is any point in discussing this at such level of "analysis"...

I agree that’s all a bit simplistic and reductive and hence I wouldn’t take it all that seriously.
However (apart from maybe the Su-30, which mentioned above) I do feel I’ve been fair and balanced, and I would suggest others also consider their own biases in this regard.
 
I do feel I’ve been fair and balanced
That's kinda the problem here, especially in points when you talk about INFERIORITY of avionics of Su-57 (plane with five to eight dispersed AESA radars, modern EOTS, DASski, DIRCM and quite a bunch of additional stuff) over EF (plane with mechanically scanned radar, EOTS from early 00s and lack of many mentioned bells and whistles with overall level never being properly upgraded after introduction).
This is either lack of even core knowledge about topic or levels of bias that should't even be possible (no pun intended).
Or ofc maybe you know something others don't and willing to share that point with me.
 
I do feel I’ve been fair and balanced
That's kinda the problem here, especially in points when you talk about INFERIORITY of avionics of Su-57 (plane with five to eight dispersed AESA radars, modern EOTS, DASski, DIRCM and quite a bunch of additional stuff) over EF (plane with mechanically scanned radar, EOTS from early 00s and lack of many mentioned bells and whistles with overall level never being properly upgraded after introduction).
This is either lack of even core knowledge about topic or levels of bias that should't even be possible (no pun intended).
Or ofc maybe you know something others don't and willing to share that point with me.

Yes, all those squadrons of fully operational Su-57’s with all those various systems definitely up and running and fully proven in service?

And all those happy customers with functioning independent oversight entities and free press’s to highlight the (absolute lack) of any issues?

And absolutely no lead export customer/ co-developer running away from the deal bad-mouthing the aircraft to all and sundry?

I’m perhaps being a bit harsh, and probably most of the Su-57’s issues will be worked out over time with a lot of Russian money spent. (Other projects like the F-22 and F-35 had their own protracted issues).

But right now given that it’s still effectively not in front line service I’d suggest you look a bit more objectively at the state propaganda around projects like the Su-57 and consider your own biases before confronting someone else re: what you perceive as theirs.
 
It should be noted that the F-35 is not really an operational aircraft either, paperwork and PR exercises aside.
 
Here is my opinion on stealth https://qr.ae/T9GCpV

Here is my opinion on what is being done for them to improve in electronics to have good avionics. https://qr.ae/TaCyjR

They have introduced GaN MMIC jammers, but no one knows if they have or have not implemented that either

Also the review for bad performance of one aircraft can be an excuse of not receiving a tech transfer. Also you cant compare one contract being the same as would the UK, as in most of the purchases done by the F-35 I believe that no one was willing to contribute 4 billion to the program development before making purchases of the F-35 later. There are also risks that countries purchasing the SU-57 will receive sanctions.

However the only bad review of the SU-57 is the current amount they have and the accidents associated with it. For example the amount of F-35s there are even if they had the same amount of accidents as the F-35 or even the F-22 their flight hours outnumber the SU-57 very significantly. Maybe it was a bad idea to start a 5th gen program if you got a limited budget. But will stay neutral until better performance results come out once the aircraft is declared operational.
 
A Super tomcat with Phonenix should be at least able to kill a F-16 Block 60.
F-14D won't beat F-16 block 60 in BVR combat.
Radar:
F-14D is equipped with APG-71 slotted mechanical scanned radar. APG-71 can detect bomber size target (RCS = 100 m2) from 140 nm. So F-16 size target ( RCS= 1m2) will be detected from 44 nm.
B4A25269-AA4B-4C32-8016-BD103926C9A4.jpeg

F-16 block 60 is equipped with APG-80 active electronic scanned array radar. APG-80 can detect target with RCS =1m2 from 64 nm. So F-14 size target (RCS =10 m2) is detected from 114 nm.
1201EB7F-6FFD-465F-9C79-271C6FF86C47.png

APG-80 is smaller and weaker than APG-71 but F-16's RCS is much smaller than F-14D. Secondly, APG-80 was made 13 years later so it also have processing, software and threat library over APG-71. To sum up, F-16 block 60 can detect F-14D from twice the distance the later can detect it and APG-80 radar with irregular scan pattern and low side lobes will be more ECM resistance and with better LPI ability than APG-71 as well.

ECM:
F-14D and F-16 block 60 are both equipped with ALQ-165 self protection internal jammer. But F-16 has lower RCS
D96615A6-CE7C-4F24-A9D5-9365D66DFC14.jpeg

IRST:
70752246-05A1-4DA0-A647-23E990DA0B30.jpeg
F-14D is equipped with AN/AAS-42 scanning array infrared system.
F-16 can be equipped with Legion pod, which is a modern staring array version of AAS-42 in a pod.
Staring array have better "scan rate" than scaning array, later system will be more sensitive and F-16 is physically smaller than F-14 so its IRST will track F-14 before the later can do the same.

Weapons:
AIM-54 got better max range than AIM-120C and possible even AIM-120D. However, AIM-120 will be more jamming resistance because it is constantly upgraded while AIM-54 retired and because F-16 block 60 can detect F-14D long before the later can detect it, F-16 has the oppotunity to accelerate and climb to give its missile a dramatic boost in range.


F-35 superior to Rafale and Typhoon ? is that a joke? a bomb truck with the arodynamics of a led brick, armed with 2 or 4 AMRAAMs, vs Meteor-armed Eurocanards ?
Firstly, F-35 will get ability to carry 6 AMRAAMs internally with side kick launcher
Lockheed Martin designed a new weapons rack to enable the F-35A and C Lightning IIs to carry two more missiles internally. The new rack is called Sidekick and adds a little extra weight but enables each of the two weapons bays to carry three AIM-120s instead of the current two, for a total of six internally carried AMRAAMs. Sidekick is not compatible with the F-35B, because it features a smaller weapons bay.

“What we’ve done is essentially completed trade studies, design and development” of Sidekick, a Lockheed Martin spokesman explained to Aviation Week. “What is left to be fielded would be things like software integration, weapons separation testing, flight testing and airworthiness testing.”

Secondly, Meteor are being intergrated onto F-35
A team of BAE Systems, Lockheed Martin and MBDA engineers are enhancing the capability of the UK’s fleet of F-35 Lightning aircraft by commencing work on the integration of next generation weapons.

BAE Systems has received an initial funding award from Lockheed Martin, the prime contractor on the F-35 programme, to start integration efforts for MBDA’s Meteor beyond visual range air-to-air missile and SPEAR precision surface attack missile.

Thirdly, F-35 has superior track and engage range compare to Typhoon and Rafale because:
Radar:
APG-81 has 1626 T/R modules compared to 828 T/R modules of RBE-2AA and 1500 T/R modules of CAPTOR-E. More T/R modules is more output assuming the output of each T/R modules is similar. And more modules is bigger aperture which will improve gain, which in turn give radar more directivity and better detection distance.
C42E3588-94DE-4A5B-AFCF-C2AA0047D66C.png

RCS:
No need to explain much, F-35 win hand down with RCS several order of magnitude smaller than Rafale and Typhoon.

ECM: smaller RCS lead to much lower jamming power requirement (aka 1000 times lower power) and shorter burn through range
B5A8D44E-FBA8-40B4-9B8C-31B22A80E627.png

And F-35 has cognitive jamming
While the specifics of the jet’s electronic warfare, or EW, package remain opaque, scientists, program watchers and military leaders close to the program say it will be key to the jet’s evolution and its survival against the future’s most advanced airplane-killing technology. In short, cognitive EW is the most important feature on the world’s most sophisticated warplane.

“There are small elements of cognitive EW right now on the F-35, but what we are really looking toward is the future,” Lee Venturino, president and CEO of First Principles, a company that is analyzing the F-35 for the Pentagon, said at a recent Association of Old Crows event in Washington, D.C.“Think of it as a stair-stepper approach. The first step is probably along the ESM[electronic support measures] side. How do I just identify the signals I’ve never seen before?”

To understand what cognitive warfare is, you have to know what it isn’t. EW makes use of the invisible waves of energy that propagate through free space from the movement of electrons, the electromagnetic spectrum. Conventional radar systems generally use fixed waveforms, making them easy to spot, learn about, and develop tactics against. But newer digitally programmable radars can generate never-before-seen waveforms, making them harder to defeat.
A concern that U.S. EW was falling behind the challenges of today’s world prompted a 2013 Defense Science Board study that recommended that the military develop agile and adaptive electronic warfare systems that could detect and counter tricky new sensors
“In the past, what would happen is you’d send out your EA-18,” the military’s top-of-the-line EW aircraft, Deputy Defense Secretary Bob Work said last month in an event at the Center for New American Security. “It would find a new waveform. There was no way for us to do anything about it. The pilot would come back, they would talk about it, they’d replicate it, they’d emulate it. It would go into the ‘ gonculator ,’ goncu-goncu-goncu-gonculatoring, and then you would have something, and then maybe some time down the road, you would have a response.”

That process is far too slow to be effective against digitally programmable radars. “The software [to defeat new waveforms] may take on the order of months or years, but the effectiveness needs to programed within hours or seconds. If it’s an interaction with a radar and a jammer, for example, sometime it’s a microsecond,” said Robert Stein, who co-chaired the Defense Science Board study.

Read “interaction” in that context to mean the critical moment when an adversary, perhaps a single lowly radar operator, detects a U.S. military aircraft on a covert operation. That moment of detection is the sort of world-changing event that happens, literally, in the blink of an eye.

Just before the study came out, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, or DARPA, established the Adaptive Radar Countermeasures program to “enable U.S. airborne EW systems to automatically generate effective countermeasures against new, unknown and adaptive radars in real-time in the field.”

The goal: EW software that can perceive new waveforms and attacks as quickly and as clearly as a living being can hear leaves rustle or see a predator crouching in the distance, then respond creatively to the threat: can I outrun that? Can I fight it? Should I do anything at all? It’s a problem of artificial intelligence: creating a living intelligence in code
 
Last edited:
Continue from above post because I reached limit of attachment
Infrared:
Clean Rafale and Eurofighter are smaller than F-35, and that is an advantage. But F-35 has many design choice to reduce its infrared signature
Cooled nozzle and turbine blocker:
45B34B1A-DC67-4145-BE9F-A2296E0F29E2.png
7E4F7EE5-0BDC-49F5-9FC7-493F4005CB77.png

Cooling vents for engine bay
A6681FC0-A85C-4F19-BD27-02EA26B9258C.jpeg
49DD47C1-85C7-489C-BB9E-CE330DC17CEA.png

Masked nozzle:
7788A4C4-E2E5-42C3-BA2F-09BB5EFD2C45.png
89049417-FDA1-4209-A588-B71D850F43F3.png
High bypass engine:
641B9908-17FB-47E7-A04B-9B2F95526C07.png

Infrared reduction paint
05C682AE-3D90-491E-BA86-48BE78B7312A.jpeg
 
Last edited:
More T/R modules is more output assuming the output of each T/R modules is similar.
That's too big of an assumption tbh. Only thing that can be certainly told from TRM count is better hardware angular resolution.
If two radar operate in similar range of frequency, using T/R modules with the same out put, isn't it obviously that the one with more T/R modules have more total out put?
 
Problem is: you can't even remotely reliably suggest that they use TRMs with same output until you KNOW that as fact.
 
Problem is: you can't even remotely reliably suggest that they use TRMs with same output until you KNOW that as fact.
That is correct, I was assuming their T/Rs are with similar power rating for the sake of simplification like when people assume lift coefficient of two aircraft are the same when comparing wing loading. But what you said is true.
P/S: Denmark has an official government evaluation between Trance 3 Eurofighter , F-18 E/F, F-16 C/D and F-35
1.PNG
2.PNG
 
Last edited:
A Super tomcat with Phonenix should be at least able to kill a F-16 Block 60.

Doesn't matter what you hang a Phoenix off - and let's remember that even if you could find a workable one it's had no ECCM development in almost 15 years at this point - it's still going to be a big, high-altitude missile meant for swatting Backfires, not highly evasive small targets with modern ECM. An unpowered dive from high-altitude just doesn't give it the end-game kinematics it needs.
 
It had a massive 61lb warhead to palliate any alleged deficiency in accuracy. That had a psychological impact on every pilot succeptible to face it.
 
It had a massive 61lb warhead to palliate any alleged deficiency in accuracy. That had a psychological impact on every pilot succeptible to face it.

There's a difference between accuracy and kinematics. The Phoenix was accurate enough, it was getting into the same part of the sky to apply that accuracy to a maneuvering target it had limitations with. It doesn't matter how accurate you are if you run out of energy before you get to the target.
 
It had a massive 61lb warhead to palliate any alleged deficiency in accuracy. That had a psychological impact on every pilot succeptible to face it.

There's a difference between accuracy and kinematics. The Phoenix was accurate enough, it was getting into the same part of the sky to apply that accuracy to a maneuvering target it had limitations with. It doesn't matter how accurate you are if you run out of energy before you get to the target.

I’m a fan of the F-14 and the range and power of the Phoenix make it iconic in it’s own right but times have moved on; a modern high quality opponent would more than likely prevent or evade a long Phoenix shot while the F-14 would be highly vulnerable to the modern AMRAAM (or equivalent) medium range shot.
None of this is criticism of the F-14.
Or impacted by perceived potential psychological impacts of warhead sizes.
 
Back
Top Bottom