Twin engined Bf 109

"see the cockpit view from above, with lateral windows, this does not look like a
single-seater..."

Tophe, not quite sure, that I understood you correctly, but the lateral cockpit windows
(or better, their panels areas) of the Bf 109 should be visible in any correct top view. Well,
I remember seeing several "scale models" were the canopy had a nearly rectangular cross
section, but in fact it should be a trapezoidal one. Photos can be especially misleading with
regards to this point.


(cutout from a drawing on http://www.airshowwings.com/Flugzeugdoku.htm)
 

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Thanks both of you: you (half) convinced me. I just explain on the picture below (on the right) what lines would have been clearer for a simple Bf109 basis. Having different ones may have a different meaning, or not...
 

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Speaking of reusing (or re-purposing in 21st century biz speak ;) ) wind-tunnel models:

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From a series of Langley Field photos in the LIFE archive.


An XB-15 model becoming so much more. :)

Now class apply this lesson to the subject of the thread and the "Me 110" drawing becomes clear.
 
joncarrfarrelly said:
Now class apply this lesson to the subject of the thread and the "Me 110" drawing becomes clear.
;D Thanks for the lesson, all becomes clear, now, almost. (I still wonder which scale Unicraft will use for the model, referring either to Bf109 fuselage or else to DB lateral engines... ??? )
 
Hi all,
this one interests me, anyone know anymore info ?
cheers
jerry

http://www.unicraft.biz/germ/me110m/me110m.htm
 
No definitive answer, I'm afraid, but a lot of discussion !
Maybe a question directly to unicraft could give at least an answer about the source ?
 
Hi
Thanks i didnt find this thread ... doh...
well i wonder if sticking a set of 1:72 Bf110 wings on a 1:48 109 fuselage, might work for a model., i must do some measuring :)
cheers
Jerry
 
Could work, I think, the wings are trapezoidal, so adapting span shouldn't be a problem,
just the engravings have to be renewed. Probably harder would be to lengthen the fuselage,
especially as the upper line seem to have a more rounded shape.
Somehow I was still thinking of a retractable landing gear, but actually there are no indications
on those drawings, I think. And the main wheel legs, shown in the front view with some more
detail seen to wide to fit into the nacelles either.
 
Some information about Messerschmitt Bf 110

in 1934 after completion of BF 109 design,
Willy Messerschmitt begann study a Bomber escort Fighter with Twin engines

The Bf 110-V (V=Vorserienmuster, prototype ) look like final version of Me 110 with semi-monocoque design featuring twin rudders.
build in 1935 and powert with DB-600 engines an flow in may 1936.

i think what we discuss here is early Bf 110 proposal based on Bf 109, around 1934/35 presented at RLM
Messerschmitt hat to show something to Reichsmarschall Goering...
 
The original specification called for a "destroyer", similar to the Bell Airacuda, so I don't
think, a single seater would have found much favour, as principally even the Bf 110
was still much smaller, than asked for.
Aditionally, if meant as a proposal for an actual service aircraft, the nose wouldn't have
been still fitted with the standard engine. Those nacelles would have had a length of about
2.90 m, but would have had to house the landing gear. And they were very shallow, so not
even an Argus As 10 would have fit in, itself not really a fighter engine, not even when doubled.
So, to my opinion, we are still talking about either the recycling of a wind tunnel model
(probably not, what unicraftmodels was thinking, as certainly reducing the number of
interested modellers ... ;) ), or about a proposed modification of a Bf 109 into a
flying testbed for the development of a twin engined fighter.
 
http://www.unicraft.biz/germ/me110m/me110m.htm :

it's a just early study of bf 110 based on bf 109
 
Honestly, I don't believe in the statement "... the original shape of the Bf 110", as the Bf 110
was never planned as a 3-engined fighter.
But the next sentence "... as tested in January 1936 by the AVA in Göttingen makes it quite clear,
I think, that our assumption was correct, although it still doesn't answer the question:
Recycling of an "old" wind tunnel model, or preparation of a Bf 109 based flying testbed.
But thabnks for pointing to the unicraft site again, hadn't seen this explanation before,
seems to have been addded aftre we started this discussion.
 
Jemiba said:
Honestly, I don't believe in the statement "... the original shape of the Bf 110", as the Bf 110
was never planned as a 3-engined fighter.
But the next sentence "... as tested in January 1936 by the AVA in Göttingen makes it quite clear,
I think, that our assumption was correct, although it still doesn't answer the question:
Recycling of an "old" wind tunnel model, or preparation of a Bf 109 based flying testbed.
But thabnks for pointing to the unicraft site again, hadn't seen this explanation before,
seems to have been addded aftre we started this discussion.

I can't remember where, but I recall seeing a photo of an obviously improvised wind tunnel model in this configuration.

Moreover, on p 155, The History of German Aviation, Willy Messerschmitt: Pioneer of Aviation Design by Ebert, Kaiser, and Peters, trans. Theriault and Cox (Schiffer, 1999) includes a drawing of this configuration labeled "Me 110 Modell" and "Messerscmitt A.G. Projectbuero Gruppe Flugeigenschaften" (I used "ue" for the umlauted "u"). Dimensions are given, with the top-most labeled "cm", and the fuselage length labeled "1236". These dimensions seem consistent with a windtunnel model, and the caption says that a model of this form was, in fact, tested at the AVA tunnel in Goettingen in 1936.

I do not speak German. But "Gruppe Flugeigenschaften" looks like it might mean something like "flight characteristics department". So I wonder if the configuration is merely part of the initial concept-definition phase for an eventual twin-engined fighter. The drawing would then represent proposed changes to an existing wind-tunnel model, not a proposed design for a full-scale aircraft. I suspect that the team chose to modify an early model from the concept definition phase for the 109, because the drawing is only superficially similar to any of the 109s that were actually built. Wind tunnel models are expensive, labor-intensive products that were clearly being reused when I visited NASA's Moffet Field tunnel some years ago. So repurposing a model on hand that shared the general aerodynamic and structural characteristics of the planned aircraft would make perfect sense.

Such a model might even offer some useful degree of control over the experimental data. The only change from the known characteristics of the single-engined fighter is the provision of twin nacelles. So any radically different behavior in the wind tunnel could be put down to this key characteristic of the proposed Bf110.

Be that as it may, the caption in the book says that data from the Goettingen tests led directly to the decision to adopt twin fins and rudders for the 110.

The moral of our story is that you can't read too much into a word like "orginal". This drawing could, in fact, be the "original" shape of the 110, in the sense that it might have been the first test shape tried by the experimental team. It just wasn't the intended shape of a real airplane--the plans were for a model that tested part of the concept. A plan only tells us that something was planned. We need to be careful about assuming what it was.

So one can build an authentic replica using the Unicraft kit. One just needs to fill any and all panel lines, sand all surfaces smooth, and paint everything black or gray.
 
iverson, I agree to the part about the re-use of a wind tunnel model, seems to be
the most plausible explanation to me.
And I wholeheartedly agree to your "moral of the story". Even original drawings have to
be looked at in the original context, otherwise they can be quite misleading, too. ;)
 
Another example of reusing (Messerschmitt) :
(source unknown …)
 

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Looks like a Me 309 model with skis/skids and legs of a tail dragger landing gear ?
 
Jemiba said:
Looks like a Me 309 model with skis/skids and legs of a tail dragger landing gear ?


Supposed to be a freefall ( ! ) model for Me 262 , used in late 1943 to compare swept and straight wing …


The wing and skis seem to be those of the Me 109 E , and the fuselage maybe related with the Me 309 ?
 
richard said:
Supposed to be a freefall ( ! ) model for Me 262 , used in late 1943 to compare swept and straight wing … ( ;D )

Maybe related to that test, which involved the fuselage of a Me 262, dropped from a Me 323
to determine the terminal dive velocity ?
(Photo from Hugh Morgan "Me 262")
 

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The fuselage under the Me 323 has , so far we can see , a similar fin , but it seems wider than the model with skis .
 

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Hi
just in case they may prove helpful.


P
 

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Personally I think the model with skiis bears a much closer resemblance to the Me 209 v14 I posted in this thread, minus the tail.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5662.0.html

Note the shallow underwing radiators, squarish wing tips and the cockpit.
 
sienar said:
Note the shallow underwing radiators, squarish wing tips and the cockpit.

Yes, you're right, especially, as it still was a tail dragger.
A good clue, too, that the development of the Me 262 started with a much narrower fuselage,
as Me 109TL.
Not sure, if wind tunnel models were built somehow "modular" back then, but maybe
we have here just another case of a "recycled" wind tunnel model ?
The key point probably were those skids, not the carrying aircraft, so the may just have
used, what was readily available.
 

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