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Turkish MBT Offer

JAZZ

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I have found these pictures of what apparently is Turkey's indigenous entry to the compitition by OtoKar. Can anyone confirm if this is so?

Thanks JAZZ
 

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vajt

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Nice and clean looking design. The turret seems to be a blend of the Leopard II and Leclerc turrets. It look as if it will use the Rheinmetall 120mm gun.

-----JT-----
 

JAZZ

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Further Turkish concept - noty sure if this is from FNSS?
 

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Apophenia

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JAZZ said:
Further Turkish concept - noty sure if this is from FNSS?

The T205 concept is not an FNSS design (they seem to be caught up with the Pars series). It is a scale model by Dr. Oguz Erataç, when at MSU (Mimar Sinan University). I believe that the model was based on the M60.

Dr. Erataç is now on the faculty of the Department of Industrial Product Design at KHU (Kadir Has) where one of his course is ET 111 Model Making I. According to a post on World Affairs Board, he has also "been invited to become part of the MBT design team at Otokar".

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/land-forces/43660-pictures-turkeys-national-tank-program.html

Attached is a sideview of the original Otokar concept for MITÜP (Milli Imkanlarla Tank Uretimi Projesi). Does anyone know if designs like the Z-3 Anadolu Parsi just fantasy creations?
 

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JohnR

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That's one hell of a shot trap on the turret!!
 

JAZZ

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Thanks for that information Apophenia, Reading in a Jane's DW Oct 2005, I see that the "Turkish Defence Industries Undersecretariat signed feasibility agreements with three local companies, BMC, Otokar and FNSS for the design of a new MBT in Turkey, with a requirement that it would be in production by 2012."

So we have what I think is the Otokar design, we have a concept by Dr. Erataç -faculty of the Department of Industrial Product Design. Still any information out there on BMC and FNSS ideas?

There were also a number of ideas modernising the M60 - from Isreal, USA and France - with T21 Turret.
 

JAZZ

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French M60 T21 turret drawing
 

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JAZZ

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US M-60 2000
 

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JAZZ

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Sorry about the multiple posts...found this M60 modification for the turkish MBT programme Sabra M60A1
 

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Pioneer

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Apophenia said:
JAZZ said:
Further Turkish concept - noty sure if this is from FNSS?

The T205 concept is not an FNSS design (they seem to be caught up with the Pars series). It is a scale model by Dr. Oguz Erataç, when at MSU (Mimar Sinan University). I believe that the model was based on the M60.

Dr. Erataç is now on the faculty of the Department of Industrial Product Design at KHU (Kadir Has) where one of his course is ET 111 Model Making I. According to a post on World Affairs Board, he has also "been invited to become part of the MBT design team at Otokar".

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/land-forces/43660-pictures-turkeys-national-tank-program.html

Attached is a sideview of the original Otokar concept for MITÜP (Milli Imkanlarla Tank Uretimi Projesi). Does anyone know if designs like the Z-3 Anadolu Parsi just fantasy creations?

The front turret/chassis arrangement looks a perfect bullet trap to me!
Very strange after all we have learned over the years of tank warfare and tank designing!!!!

Regards
Pioneer
 

Apophenia

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Agreed on the shot trap.

The big puzzle is why go through this MBT design process at all. The world is now awash with used Leopard 2s that can be readily upgraded. But perhaps that is too close to the route that the Greeks took.

One wonders why the Turks don't focus on developing original light armour instead of knock-offs -- M113-derived ACVs, FNSS Pars from GPV Colonel/General series, Otokar Yavuz from Terrex AV-81, etc.

AFAIK, the Otokar Kobra is original (although putting an armoured hull on Humvee running gear wasn't -- Mowag Eagle, for one). Redesigning the Kobra hull to be more mine-resistant would seem a better investment of time and New Turkish Lira.
 

JAZZ

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Turkey is not to build its own tank, however the problem with the Leopard 2, is the cost of running old leopards will increase...so sometimes its better to bit the bullet and go new.
 

Apophenia

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Jazz,

Point taken on age and biting bullets but according to the Savunma Sanayii Müstesarligi, who manage procurement, Turkey will indeed build its own tank. "The SSM expects the local contenders to build an indigenous model with 'limited foreign technology'."

In any case, Turkey already has a contract with Germany to provide 298 ex-Bundeswehr Leopard 2A4s for 365 million euros. [Does anyone know if Spring 2007 delivery completion was met?]

So, why not put all that MBT development money into thorough upgrades for those Leopards? Canada plans to do that with former Leopard 2A4(NL)s.

Some Canadian 2A4s are simply being upgunned with L/44s. Others will get the full treatment -- the long guns plus 2A6 add-on armour, and a few 2A4s will get mine-protection becoming Leopard 2A6M CANs. The end result will be fully refurbished and modernized tanks at comparatively low cost (I mean compared to German new-production rather than with more-or-less original indigenous production).

For the record, other used Leopard 2 buyers are:

Austria -- 114 ex-Dutch Leopard 2A4s
Canada -- 100 ex-Dutch Leopard 2A4 and 2A6 (+ 2 German ARV3 Büffels)
Chile -- 140 ex-German Leopard 2A4s
Denmark -- 52 ex-German Leopard 2A4s (51 converted into 2A5DKs)
Finland -- 124 ex-German Leopard 2A4s
Greece -- 183 ex-German Leopard 2A4s (+ 150 Leopard 1A5s)
Norway -- 52 ex-Dutch Leopard 2A4s
Poland -- 128 ex-German Leopard 2A4s
Portugal -- 37 ex-Dutch Leopard 2A6s
Singapore -- 66 ex-German Leopard 2A4 (+ 30 for spares)
Spain -- 108 ex-German Leopard 2A4s (+ local 2A6Es)
Sweden -- 160 ex-German Leopard 2A4s (as Strv 121)
Turkey -- 298 ex-German Leopard 2A4s

Anyone know of any others?
 

JAZZ

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Thanks for the update...excellant. While I understand your point of view, and you can correct me here, I was under the impression that only 2400 or there abouts Leopard-2 MBT (excludes those for Sweden) that leaves Netherlands and Germany with little over 1000 units....Can you tell me what numbers of MBT is Germany seeking to maintain?

The other matter is takes into acount the larger picture, We have Turkey with a population of over 70million people, a real growth rate in GDP of over 5% and a per capita income 2004 of $6,700. A real strategic player in the long-term. When it comes to metal bashing - costs of doing that in Turkey are much less than the germany, France, UK and US. So it may make sense to develop a tank with some high-end valued equipment from other countries. It also goes some way to developing an industry base - one could argue that MBT productionfor a future Europe could be moved to Turkey, with high-end-technical equipment still for the time being produced in other countries.

Turkey may very well have a compartive advantage in producing armoured vehicles at the moment.
 

Apophenia

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IIRC, 2125 Leopard 2s were built for the Germans. By 2012, with the planned drawndown, the Bundeswehr will be left with 395 Leopard 2A6s in service. The KL plans to keep 110 Leo 2A6(NL)s operational.

Agreed on your Turkish metal-bashing point. Actually, upgrading Leopard 2A4s might be a good place to start. Perhaps an up-armour kit (along the lines of IBD Deisenroth's AMAP) designed, developed, and installed in Turkey... a kind of "Leopard 2A6T"?

The next-generation project might then be an evolved Leopard 2 hull with still more armour and the added weight balanced with smaller powerplant (perhaps MTU Europack as offered to Turkey in the M1) and a more compact turret (a la Strv 2000).
 

r16

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being a 26 day tanker private , I have only a few things to say.

thousands of Leopards laying around unfortunately means nothing to us , as they won't be sold to us even in return for their weight in gold . You may well read or personally know the days of tanks are numbered because of the forthcoming revolution in warfare , but as it is demonstrated day by day on TV they have a way of crashing lightly armed opposition . Tanks did a lot in the early nineties by protecting the outposts in our land and we will never get Leopards or any other for this particular reason . When there were 4 choises in the competion the Ukranian Coast Guard actually sank a fishing boat that was illegally working in Ukranian waters killing one Turkish citizen , and I had never thought that a "Rus" would have any chance ...Appearently many in world capitals thought so .
 

r16

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only to prove these things happen all the time , it appears that another illegally operating fisherman has been shot dead , this time by Bulgarians . This just a coincidence , I hasten to add.
 

ocay

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Here is ALTAY from OTOKAR
20186ddbe9.jpg
 

Herman

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Reply to post #14
The Dutch have just decided to disband its last tank unit. The last 80 Leopard 2A6 tanks will be sold. These units have been well maintained and have seen relatively little use. An excellent buy for interested parties!
 

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