TSR2 - Britain's Lost Bomber - Damien Burke

[Deino]

It does have that effect doesn't it ;D

Yes it does ! ;D

I just received my copy from Amazon today (and still have a second one direct from the publisher on order ) and I have to admit it was a long, long time ago, when I had a book in hand and was that much impressed (*).

It surpassed all my expectations and I can only wish for more.
If I had to rate this book I would give a full 12 out of 10. :-*

Cheers, Deino


(*) ... just to add, I'm equally impressed by the latest three books from Harpia Publishing (http://www.harpia-publishing.com/) regarding ...

- IRIAF 2010
- African MiGs
- Latin American Mirages

 

[DamienB]

I can't put the thing down,

Bet your arms hurt by now then...

I'm half way through already!!!!, fascinating. I Think the caption under the photo on page 89 is wrong. The two toolmakers using a theodolite are setting in a post, situated on the A/C centre line, which will carry the 'Taylor Hobsen' sweep squares(Telescopes). There were 6 placed around the Jig set in at defined distances in X,Yand Z from the A/C datums. I'm not trying to be clever, its just for the record. Today we us other measuring methods such as Laser Trackers for setting up the tooling.

You may well be right - that's a level of detail I wasn't about to get into, and the caption was based on the original Vickers caption for the photo - so not wrong, just simplified for a lay audience I think.

Do you know whats missing: An accurate 3 view including frame sections as a pull out.

I did try but a chap who'd apparently done an accurate 3 view went all uncommunicative after agreeing to provide it and I ran out of time to chase him down about it. Crowood were not keen on upping the price by including a fold out either so it'd probably have got split onto various pages instead anyway.

 

[Nigel Roche]

Damien youre right my arm was hurting yesterday, I'm halfway through, a real page turner!!!
Nigel

 

[uk 75]

Already commented on my first impressions, but I had to come back and confirm what others
have written. You have produced the bible on TSR 2.

My particular favourite (out of many) are the various drawings of aircraft as they might have
been in the manufacturer's brochures. These scale plans surpass anything I have seen in
other what-if books (notably the Secret Projects series).

You have left us thirsting for more. Any chance of co-operating with Michael Pryce on the HS 681
and the HS 1154? Probably too narrow a topic. Do let us know what you are up to next..

Finally, and I do not have my copy with me to check, I will bring it with me next time I use the Interweb (Gordon Brown sic) on my local library, you refer to the Mirage V at some point being replaced by TSR 2 if the UK bought Mirage Vs in return. Should that be Mirage IVs? as the Mirage V
was not yet in French service.

Now if only someone can do a similar book on CVA 01 my childhood Christmas present list would be complete.

UK 75

 

[DamienB]

Yeah, I agree that doesn't look right, IV would make more sense. I'll have to dig through my files and see if I can find the original document.

 

[Hammer Birchgrove]

I would assume TSR-2 would replace French Mirage IV if UK bought Mirage III. ???

 

[DamienB]

Here's the source material. I would think this is an error by Julian Amery, and he should have written IV not V. I'll add a note to the errata - thanks for picking up on it UK 75.

 

[phil gollin]

Excellent book - well laid out, informative and a great source of facts.

Indeed it is so good it actually highlights the books that are missing from "rea" aircraft. Imagine the equivalent book on the Victor, Valiant or Vulcan giving the real details.

Well worth the price and an example to all authors.

Well done and thanks.

.

 

[foiling]

My amazon account states that my order will not be shipped before late January; and the same applies to the American Secret Projects: Bombers. I gather the guys who have copies already of these two books ordered through amazon.uk. I had not anticipated so big a difference. In future I will shop with the UK store, as the surface postage is far quicker & sometimes less hassle, too. Sadly, the USA might become a last resort for all book purchases.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

As Tony Buttler noted, commercial deliveries of books are sent surface mail, not airmail, from the UK to US (and vice versa).

 

[foiling]

I live in South Africa, and books usually take between 1 & 2 weeks to arrive surface mail; from the rest of Europe, maybe 2 weeks to a month; from the States usually a month to 3 months. Also, if I understand correctly, the postal service in the States may have changed their shipping policy so that books may only be posted 'airmail', or possibly those above a certain weight. Not sure, but I have been denied purchasing books from the USA a number of times, although some are still arriving - never get around to checking how they were shipped, but it is always very expensive, anyway - from any country. Often more than the book price, which is frustrating when one is thrilled by a really good bargain, or a book that is worth the price, but maybe not when you add the postage and it is more than double.

 

[F-14D]

I live in South Africa, and books usually take between 1 & 2 weeks to arrive surface mail; from the rest of Europe, maybe 2 weeks to a month; from the States usually a month to 3 months. Also, if I understand correctly, the postal service in the States may have changed their shipping policy so that books may only be posted 'airmail', or possibly those above a certain weight. Not sure, but I have been denied purchasing books from the USA a number of times, although some are still arriving - never get around to checking how they were shipped, but it is always very expensive, anyway - from any country. Often more than the book price, which is frustrating when one is thrilled by a really good bargain, or a book that is worth the price, but maybe not when you add the postage and it is more than double.

Your books from the States are taking longer because they first have to go through a special X-Ray so that all the pages can be read through the cover, and some are being set aside so that a TSA agent can feel the center pages to find out what kind of paper is being used and how large the photographs are.

 

[mz]

Seriously, I ordered something from the USA to northern EU exactly a month ago via amazon.co.uk. Nothing so far. It was posted by "USPS". Am I now on CIA:s black list, for the reason of ordering something technical? The book wasn't even written in the USA, it's just that the price from Germany would have been 2.5 fold.

 

[F-14D]

Seriously, I ordered something from the USA to northern EU exactly a month ago via amazon.co.uk. Nothing so far. It was posted by "USPS". Am I now on CIA:s black list, for the reason of ordering something technical? The book wasn't even written in the USA, it's just that the price from Germany would have been 2.5 fold.

"USPS" stands for United States Postal Service; don't worry, they can't even spell "CIA".

Seriously, this has been a problem for some time. I subscribe to a number of European Journals, and at one point some of them were mailing their issues to Canada, having the Canadian Postal System ship them across Canada and then having them remailed from the nearest Canadian point of entry to me. this was faster than sending them to me direct! It's gotten better, but that doesn't mean it's gotten great...

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Here's the source material. I would think this is an error by Julian Amery, and he should have written IV not V. I'll add a note to the errata - thanks for picking up on it UK 75.

I wouldn't be so quick to assume the good Minister didn't know what he was writing and it was Peter Thorneycraft (Minister for Aviation) not Julian Amery (Secretary of State for Air, ie junior minister) who wrote the note about the RAF acquiring "Mirage Vs".

It is very feasible he was referring to the 'other' Mirage Vee, the Mirage III, Balzac V which was at that time (March 62) in competition with the BAC 584 and HS P.1154 for NATO Basic Requirement 3 for a VTOL fighter. In which case his suggestion makes chronological, force structure sense: the French buy the TSR.2 to replace their Mirage IVs and the RAF buys the Mirage Balzac V to replace their Hawker Hunters. The idea that the UK would buy Mirage IVs at the same time they were buying TSR.2s is pretty ridiculous.

PS thanks for these great original letters.

 

[geeshockbloke]

"The idea that the UK would buy Mirage IVs at the same time they were buying TSR.2s is pretty ridiculous."

Ah, no. Chris Gibson told me that the UK Air Staff and Min of Av were interested in acquiring the Mirage IV during the Post-Skybolt flap. Their reasoning was that when used with the Vulcan / Victor they would present a diverse deterrent, ie Low/Slow with V-bombers and High/Fast with Mirage. Keep the Soviets on their toes.

Mark

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Ah, no. Chris Gibson told me that the UK Air Staff and Min of Av were interested in acquiring the Mirage IV during the Post-Skybolt flap. Their reasoning was that when used with the Vulcan / Victor they would present a diverse deterrent, ie Low/Slow with V-bombers and High/Fast with Mirage. Keep the Soviets on their toes.

If that’s the case then it’s still pretty ridiculous, for one the TSR.2 was capable of high altitude, high speed missions. However the post Skybolt flap was a very short period of time (three weeks) until the Nassau Agreement. The later saw the UK replace the V Force with Polaris. The Mirage IV acting as an alternative to TSR.2 or a gap filler is a totally different argument and does not fit in at all with this correspondence.

Anyway since the Skybolt/Polaris events were in November and December 1962 it is basically unrelated to this March 1962 correspondence. Clearly this is a consideration of the British and French sharing their assets (sound familiar?) which involves the French REPLACING their Mirage IV with the TSR.2. So where does the RAF acquiring Mirage IVs fit into this? Now within a few weeks of this letter the NATO BMR 3 will progress and see BAC start to get involved with Dassault and the Mirage IIIV as a competitor to the HS P.1154. Coincidence? Or was the fix on to consider the bomber-fighter swap?

Anyway this is more of an issue of terminology than force structure analysis. In 1962 what we know of as the Mirage V wasn’t even a glint in the Israeli Air Force’s eye. However in 1962 there was a Mirage III in service, a Mirage IV under production and a very high visibility VTOL derivate under development called the Balzac V. Since the “Balzac” part of the name was to do with a play on the ‘001’ serial number with a very well known French advertising firm’s phone number ‘Balzac 001’ that was meaningless to everyone else its no surprise this plane was referred to as the Mirage V in the UK. It was the fifth Mirage variant under development and while still officially called the Mirage IIIV is very feasible that in a hand written note was referred to as the Mirage V.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I agree with Abraham here. The timing is between the close of NMBR.3 (Jan 1962) and the announcement of the decision (May 1962). I think this is an idea for a horse trade - support Mirage IIIV for NMBR.3, maybe buy some for the RAF, and the French can buy TSR.2s to replace the Mirage IVs in return. Its "shocking" because they would be supporting the rival submission over the British one.

 

[DamienB]

Guys, that is brilliant - a horse trade of TSR2 to replace the IV and Mirage IIIV to replace P.1154 is a perfect match, and makes much more sense. I had completely forgotten about the Mirage IIIV.

 

[geeshockbloke]

Sense? I think the last few weeks have demonstrated that in British defence policy, particularly military aviation, sense is not the MO of the politicians.

Mark

 

[DamienB]

Well of course the problem with these big ticket defence projects is the price just keeps going up...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/184797211X/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&qid=1290180699&sr=8-2&condition=used

 

[GTX]

Yikes!!! Glad I have my copy already.

Regards,

Greg

 

[Skyraider3D]

Finally my doormat went *thunk* - literally - this afternoon. Wow, what a fantastic book Damien! Very proud to have been part of this publication, as it's stunning! Your dedication and hard work really shows off. Great stuff! B)

 

[foiling]

Cancelled three orders from amazon.com yesterday because they are 'not available' until early next year - including Burke's TSR2 & American Secret Projects (Bombers), - and ordered them from amazon.co.uk. Luckily I obtained a copy of TSR2 for 49 pounds. Thanks for the advice, I shall use the UK store in future.

 

[foiling]

Burke's TSR2 book, ordered through amazon.uk on 20th November arrived (in South Africa) yesterday - stunning book; and Buttler's "American Secret projects" ordered at same time, arrived today. Approximately 10 days, pretty good for surface mail. So glad you guys pointed out that amazon had a UK branch, I'd expected them to be the same source.

 

[Skyraider3D]

At last, the artwork is available as print!!! ;D

Please see http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,11669.0.html or go directly to http://www.zazzle.com/skyraider3d* or http://www.digitalaviationart.com


NB. I have updated the image slightly based on some info that became available shortly after the original deadline, last May. See if you can spot the differences!

(click image below to enlarge)



Let me help you a little bit:

 

[nova10]

There are quite a few books on the tsr2. I'm willing to fork out the money but I want to know that this is the definitative book on the subject and the only book I will ever need to buy. All opinions greatly appreciated!

 

[Thorvic]

With regard to the TSR2 program from start to finish, then yes this is the definative book on the subject. Its the most comprehensive book yet covering nearly all aspects from its inception to cancellation and beyond.

Definately worth the investment

Geoff

 

[nova10]

Cheers Geoff!

 

[Skyraider3D]

Seconded. You will not be disappointed.

 

[F-14D]

Amazon USA now shows this in stock.

 

[Sundog]

Amazon USA now shows this in stock.

Yeah, I received an e-mail stating my copy should show up within a week.

 

[F-14D]

Amazon USA now shows this in stock.

Yeah, I received an e-mail stating my copy should show up within a week.

My copy arrived today--fast shipping by Amazon even though I used the free shipping.

It's magnificent. "Bee" himself would have been impressed.

 

[Sundog]

Amazon USA now shows this in stock.

Yeah, I received an e-mail stating my copy should show up within a week.

My copy arrived today--fast shipping by Amazon even though I used the free shipping.

It's magnificent. "Bee" himself would have been impressed.

Mine arrived today. I couldn't agree with you more. It's outstanding. I particularly like the training variant. The amount of information in it is simply amazing.

The "What-If" modelers just received a whole new bunch of ideas.

 

[Skyraider3D]

The "What-If" modelers just received a whole new bunch of ideas.

I sure did!

 

[JFC Fuller]

Having had this book for a week now I just want to say that it is truly outstanding. The depth of detail, especially in areas such as avionics which are not normally covered by British aviation historians, is remarkable. Congratulations to Damien!

 

[DamienB]

Thanks Lawrence - and everybody else who has recently commented - I'm really pleased with the positive reception the book has had. On avionics in particular I could hardly have left them out and still claim to be telling the whole story. As possibly the first UK project to be treated as a "weapons system" rather than just as an aircraft with some weapons bolted on as an afterthought, this was an important aspect of the project's financial and scheduling woes. Even so I could have gone into more detail but the additional stuff would have been of little interest to most readers. I hope I covered the major items in sufficient depth anyway.

 

[pathology_doc]

As possibly the first UK project to be treated as a "weapons system" rather than just as an aircraft with some weapons bolted on as an afterthought, this was an important aspect of the project's financial and scheduling woes.

Forgive my impertinence, but wasn't lack of adherence to this concept also mentioned (in the BSP jet fighters book) as a reason the Ministry were displeased with certain companies' approach re. some of the interceptors that died of Sandys Disease?

Even so I could have gone into more detail but the additional stuff would have been of little interest to most readers. I hope I covered the major items in sufficient depth anyway.

Oh, please do bore us. *evil grin*

I think I'm going to run out and order a copy of this book right now.

 

[alertken]

"weapon system": UK industry was seen in MoS to have grasped this change more slowly/painfully than (appeared to be the case in) US. MoS let it be known to the parent-owners of the Project teams at Supermarine (Scimitar+anyweapon), AWA and Gloster (Javelin+Firestreak) that their poor cost/time performance would weigh heavily in any future tender evaluation.

This was in part unfair: integration requires, finally, one decision-maker. MoS did not relinquish its "ownership" of difficult/expensive/complex bought-out items until Hawk, 1971. Tornado was the first "weapon system" aircraft where UK appointed a "Prime Contractor", even there keeping gun and engine in Ministry hands.

 

[pathology_doc]

Project teams at Supermarine (Scimitar+anyweapon), AWA and Gloster (Javelin+Firestreak)

When you mention Javelin and Firestreak in the same breath, you puzzle me a bit because I was under the impression that Firestreak was DeHavilland's baby. Your implication is that there were integration issues. Is this because they were holding out for/expecting Red Dean and hadn't done their homework on integrating the IR missile? Or were there other problems at either or both ends?

(By contrast, "Fire Across the Desert", a history of the Woomera range, suggests that integrating Firestreak with the Avon Sabre would have been a no-brainer... had it not been for the fact that the only space going spare to put the missile support systems in was occupied by the cannons, something which - rightly, IMHO - the RAAF was loath to give up. I'd love to hear more, but we should probably shift that topic to the bar since it's in the realm of actual designs that actually got built and served.)