The F-35 No Holds Barred topic

[2IDSGT]

Trying to bolt *stealth* onto the F-15 is just dumb. If Boeing wants to up its game against the F-35, better to use advantages already available; namely, aerodynamic/performance capabilities not constrained by VLO requirements.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Trying to bolt *stealth* onto the F-15 is just dumb.

Didn’t you get the point from Kcran’s posting of a picture of a J-20? If you just SAY it is fifth generation, low observable, whatever and you keep saying it and people repeat it back and lots of people with nothing to do with the project all start to believe you and they keep saying it and mass media with no ability to validate such claims start saying it and people start making computer graphics of it and posting such on internet web forums and so on and so on you know what that means? That there’s a lot of gullible people in the world.

 

[bipa]

Trying to bolt *stealth* onto the F-15 is just dumb.

Didn’t you get the point from Kcran’s posting of a picture of a J-20? If you just SAY it is fifth generation, low observable, whatever and you keep saying it and people repeat it back and lots of people with nothing to do with the project all start to believe you and they keep saying it and mass media with no ability to validate such claims start saying it and people start making computer graphics of it and posting such on internet web forums and so on and so on you know what that means? That there’s a lot of gullible people in the world.

You mean: unlike the numerous and recurring assertions regarding F-35's "VLO" abilities...

 

[Abraham Gubler]

You mean: unlike the numerous and recurring assertions regarding F-35's "VLO" abilities...

They do more than just make assertions and there is independent scientific verification of these claims. Plus they do have the F-117, B-2 and F-22 to back up claims in this department.

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

You mean: unlike the numerous and recurring assertions regarding F-35's "VLO" abilities...

They do more than just make assertions and there is independent scientific verification of these claims. Plus they do have the F-117, B-2 and F-22 to back up claims in this department.

2 out of 3 of those being made by the same people building the F-35 as well.

 

[SlowMan]

http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/01/22/italy-fighterjets-idINL6N0ARDBU20130122

Italian centre-left leader says would cut F-35 spending

Jan 22 (Reuters) - The head of Italy's main centre-left party, leading in opinion polls ahead of an election next month, said he would cut spending on Lockheed Martin Corp's F-35 fighter jet if he became prime minister.

"Spending on the F-35 must absolutely be revised and limited," Pier Luigi Bersani said in a taped interview for RAI2's evening news broadcast which has yet to air, according to a post by his spokesman on Twitter.

"Our priority is not fighter jets, but jobs," he was quoted as saying.

A poll on Friday found that the PD together with its Left, Ecology and Liberty coalition partner held about a 6 percentage-point lead going into the Feb. 24-25 vote, down four points from a week earlier.

 

[chuck4]

http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/01/22/italy-fighterjets-idINL6N0ARDBU20130122

Italian centre-left leader says would cut F-35 spending

Jan 22 (Reuters) - The head of Italy's main centre-left party, leading in opinion polls ahead of an election next month, said he would cut spending on Lockheed Martin Corp's F-35 fighter jet if he became prime minister.

"Spending on the F-35 must absolutely be revised and limited," Pier Luigi Bersani said in a taped interview for RAI2's evening news broadcast which has yet to air, according to a post by his spokesman on Twitter.

"Our priority is not fighter jets, but jobs," he was quoted as saying.

A poll on Friday found that the PD together with its Left, Ecology and Liberty coalition partner held about a 6 percentage-point lead going into the Feb. 24-25 vote, down four points from a week earlier.

The fact that Italian economy hasn't grown as fast as the interest rate on its debt obligation for the last 20 years is probably 99% responsible for this news item. You can blame the Euro and the Germans for this. Even if F-35 is under budget and over performance, Italy would probably still need to examine cutting it as part of its new Fiscal salvation.

 

[kcran567]

No one here can argue that the global economy is in a bad way with debt, derivatives, austerity,etc. and most countries are busy trying to find ways to put their people back to work. It makes sense that Italy would out of necessity put jobs first. The F-35 program either has to be cost effective (hard to do) or other nations want to have a chunk of manufacturing/tooling (hard to do) to make it worthwhile to them. One of the last areas the US has manufacturing in is military projects like the F-35.


It doesn't make sense for the US share all of its tech with everyone involved. As a taxpayer I expect those jobs and tech to stay here in the US, why should any taxpayer have fund another countries jobs program? China is becoming competitive now in aerospace and are also huge growing economic powerhouse. What is the solution if no one can afford the F-35? Lend/lease?

 

[GTX]

It makes sense that Italy would out of necessity put jobs first.

Cutting the F-35 purchase will actually impact upon jobs in Italy.

As a taxpayer I expect those jobs and tech to stay here in the US, why should any taxpayer have fund another countries jobs program?

The other partner nations have also funded the F-35, albeit on a smaller level. The majority of work is done in the USA, though you need to remember that often work is done elsewhere because it can be done both better and less expensive. Work has to be won properly though - it is certainly not a case of the US "taxpayer have[ing] fund another countries jobs program".

 

[chuck4]

It makes sense that Italy would out of necessity put jobs first.

Cutting the F-35 purchase will actually impact upon jobs in Italy.

Reducing government spending always impact jobs. You either think government spending stimulates jobs by more than the spending costs, or you think it stimulates jobs by less than the spending costs. It's funny the same people who sings loudest the tune that "government spending stimulates jobs less than it costs" in every other area are usually the exact same people who suddenly switches to the opposite tune when defence spending is involving.

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

It makes sense that Italy would out of necessity put jobs first.

Cutting the F-35 purchase will actually impact upon jobs in Italy.

Yep.

Also, I can't imagine a politician trying to separate something that is so obviously connected for personal gain. What a mad world we live in, when politicians pull such shenanigans. Its almost like he is saying something that is at odds with reality, in order to gain favor in a grandiose fashion during an election. The only question is: was it a deliberate omission (A lie) or is he really that ignorant?

Lucky for all of us here on Secretprojects we are all too smart to fall for such an obvious ploy, amiright? We wouldn't try to pass off electoral rhetoric, and campaign speeches as anything of actual merit. That would be silly. Luckily we have 100 percent accurate and reliable polling data included in the story as well to really show the F-35s future Italian cancellation and its inevitable purchase of the F-22, F-15SE, and Super F-111, along with silent hornets for its carrier.

 

[SlowMan]

Cutting the F-35 purchase will actually impact upon jobs in Italy.

It's called the efficiency of how many jobs per million euro spent.

The F-35 represents fewest jobs per million Euro for Italians and a highway would represent most jobs per million Euro spent.

 

[bobbymike]

Cutting the F-35 purchase will actually impact upon jobs in Italy.

It's called the efficiency of how many jobs per million euro spent.

The F-35 represents fewest jobs per million Euro for Italians and a highway would represent most jobs per million Euro spent.

Your quote reminds me of when Milton Friedman was in China and they showed him road builders using thousands of workers with shovels. Good for employment the Communist official said. Why not use spoons then, replied Friedman.

 

[SlowMan]

http://kiyotani.at.webry.info/201301/article_7.html

作成日時 ： 2013/01/15 16:40 >>
ブログ気持玉 35 / トラックバック 0 / コメント 12
　改められた防衛省の来年度の概算要求が先日発表されました。
http://www.mod.go.jp/j/yosan/2013/minaosi.pdf

　これによるとF-35は２機で３０８億円、単価は１５４億円です。
　問題は初度費です。初度費は１，１６８億円です。初度費は初年度だけとは限りません。今後も更に追加の初度費が計上される可能性があります。

今年の初度費だけでも調達予定機４２機で割ると、一機あたり２７．８億円です。つまり現状実質的なF-35の調達単価は１８１．８億円です。

The "real" flyaway cost of F-35 to Japan is 18.18 billion yen minimum, or $204 million in today's exchange.

The cost of Japan FACO assembled F-35 is 15.4 billion yen/unit. Then there is a separate 116.8 billion yen FACO and other preparation cost being paid for this year, which won't necessarily be the last cost related to the production set up.

So Lockheed's quotation of $235 million/unit for an F-35 + 3 years worth of spare parts to Korea is very realistic. All countries buying the F-35A will be paying more than $200 million/unit.

 

[SlowMan]

Your quote reminds me of when Milton Friedman was in China and they showed him road builders using thousands of workers with shovels. Good for employment the Communist official said.

Well, that trick works well. Without it, Chinese economy would have collapsed by now and there may even be a social revolution overthrowing the communists.

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

deleted of my own accord

 

[GTX]

Cutting the F-35 purchase will actually impact upon jobs in Italy.

It's called the efficiency of how many jobs per million euro spent.

The F-35 represents fewest jobs per million Euro for Italians and a highway would represent most jobs per million Euro spent.

Except that that argument doesn't hold water when you have already invested in the capability and related (e.g. the Italian FACO). Moreover, many of the jobs created/related to the F-35 are not necessarily automatically transferable to other areas. Mind you, there is a long history of =certain political parties having no grasp of reality and doing things more for ideological reasons then anything else.

 

[GTX]

The cost of Japan FACO assembled F-35 is 15.4 billion yen/unit.

Interesting that you quote with such certainty the cost of something that doesn't exist yet. You got a time machine have you?

All countries buying the F-35A will be paying more than $200 million/unit.

What do you define as a "Unit"? Moreover, any cost proposed will depend upon a multitude of variables including when they may buy, so making such broad statements such as this is ridiculous.

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

What do you define as a "Unit"? Moreover, any cost proposed will depend upon a multitude of variables including when they may buy, so making such broad statements such as this is ridiculous.

When has that ever stopped him before? All he makes are broad statements that are either dis proven or havn't been dis proven yet. Suddenly he is an expert on the Italian Economy as well, and the benefits of Command Economy in one project vs another. When one of his other posts is proven wrong he doubles down with something else.

I am no longer feeding him

"Just because some jackass asserts a thing does not mean that it is worthy of refutation. If the same guy tells you that every space shuttle launch perturbs the Earth's orbit, and that the cumulative effects are just about to start the process of the loss of the atmosphere into space, thus creating a vacuum that will destroy all life on the planet in approximately 36 hours, would you deem this necessary to refute? How much time would you spend explaining to him why this cannot happen? Would not your time be spent better doing other things? And if you devise a concise explanation, why would you assume he would understand?"

Since LO left the conversation we have had nothing but Slowman basically finding anything he can to try and disprove the F-35 including contradicting himself on multiple occasions along with Lockheed and Boeings publicly stated facts. Why are we even bothering? The nice thing about arguing with LO is he at least has some facts and his reputation won't allow him to make sweepingly false statements. And he also doesn't report quotes from Italian politicians in an election. : How desperate is this? Are we going to hear about how the F-35s tires aren't round enough? Or how the F-35 isn't a stealthy shade of gray? Did a Korean start a rumor that the J-20 isn't as stealthy as an F-35 and Russia heard about it and told China before study hall and now everyone hates the F-35 and it refuses to come to class now?

A little over a week ago we got a highly detailed government (actually credible yay!) report about the good and the bad of the F-35 and instead we are debating a Korean fashion contest. Who cares what is hot in Korea this week?

 

[chuck4]

Your quote reminds me of when Milton Friedman was in China and they showed him road builders using thousands of workers with shovels. Good for employment the Communist official said.

Well, that trick works well. Without it, Chinese economy would have collapsed by now and there may even be a social revolution overthrowing the communists.

There is a difference between making work for the hell of it, and investing with an clear eye towards a good return, and employing the necessary people in the process. I think the Chinese "communists" have been doing the latter much more than the former, and doing it rather better than most "capitalists".

 

[bobbymike]

Cutting the F-35 purchase will actually impact upon jobs in Italy.

It's called the efficiency of how many jobs per million euro spent.

The F-35 represents fewest jobs per million Euro for Italians and a highway would represent most jobs per million Euro spent.

Your quote reminds me of when Milton Friedman was in China and they showed him road builders using thousands of workers with shovels. Good for employment the Communist official said. Why not use spoons then, replied Friedman.

Your quote reminds me of when Milton Friedman was in China and they showed him road builders using thousands of workers with shovels. Good for employment the Communist official said.

Well, that trick works well. Without it, Chinese economy would have collapsed by now and there may even be a social revolution overthrowing the communists.

You left off the Friedman remark (on purpose?) as it illustrated the point that at a certain point creating jobs has to have some efficiency and purpose.

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

I wish anyone who tries to apply a totalitarian model to Italy the best of luck. : Worked so well last time."Lets cancel our military orders and be like China! cuz jobs!" Said no one ever.

 

[chuck4]

I wish anyone who tries to apply a totalitarian model to Italy the best of luck. : Worked so well last time."Lets cancel our military orders and be like China! cuz jobs!" Said no one ever.

Actually, the current Italian government is in every sense unelected. When the powers that be in Italy are staring down the barrel of national default and fiscal collapse, they had the good sense to kick out the felonious, statutory raping clone that “democracy” had placed in the Prime Minister’s office, and replace him, without any election, with an appointed technocratic committee of economists to solve the problem.

If your people happen to be Italian, you just have to let “know what the fuck you are doing” trump “whim of the people”.

 

[SlowMan]

Interesting that you quote with such certainty the cost of something that doesn't exist yet.

All the numbers are from the Japanese government budget proposal for FY2013.

What do you define as a "Unit"?

One F-35 + associated spare parts.

Moreover, any cost proposed will depend upon a multitude of variables including when they may buy, so making such broad statements such as this is ridiculous.

Unit cost is defined as Program Cost / number of jets bought.

If your people happen to be Italian, you just have to let “know what the fuck you are doing” trump “whim of the people”.

I am sure Italians couldn't care less about the F-35 and would wish to spend the money on job creation or social welfare programs instead.

 

[SpudmanWP]

Let's talk apples to apples... per the chart below, what type of cost are you talking about?

 

[SlowMan]

Let's talk apples to apples... per the chart below, what type of cost are you talking about?

Apple to Apple, all conditions and scope of supply being equal.

Japan F-X(42 units)

Boeing : $4 billion
BAE : $7 billion
Lockheed : $10 billion + $2 billion FACO production.

Korea F-X(60 units)

Boeing : $9.4 billion
CASA : $10.3 billion
Lockheed : $14.1 billion

 

[SpudmanWP]

Really.. numbers with no source (that says the numbers cover the EXACT same thing)?

 

[SlowMan]

Really.. numbers with no source (that says the numbers cover the EXACT same thing)?

They cover the same thing because those were open bid tenders; the buyer specifies the exact quantity, scope of supply, and terms of payment, and the bidders write in their asking prices.

 

[SpudmanWP]

Where did the numbers come from (link please)?

 

[kcran567]

Not to ask a dumb question, but is there any chance we will see a western nation operating a J-20 or a Pakfa in the near future? Is it really that far fetched with globalism the way it is now? For Pete's sake, the US buys Chinese computer chips to use in weapons systems, and there is even Chinese fish in the frozen foods section of Walmart.


Would a country like Italy or Australia be enticed to buy a J-20 if the Chinese were able to offer it for 1/2 the price of the F-35.


If there are agreements preventing this, sorry I'm unaware. Just asking the question.


Is that even possible? If the F-35 cost over-runs and price tag is really that high, what protection do the Chines and Russians have from similar-if not more-cost over-runs? Both the T-50 and J-20 are all new stealth aircraft that are groundbreaking in airframe, avionics, engines, fuel systems, electric flight controls, radar, etc. If the bug is infecting the F-35, its bound to spread to the T-50 and J-20. I find it hard to believe that the Chinese and Russian process has been smooth sailing compared to the F-35s.

 

[SlowMan]

Not to ask a dumb question, but is there any chance we will see a western nation operating a J-20 or a Pakfa in the near future?

The J-20 cannot be used by NATO members or neighbors of China, due to China being their enemy state.
As for the PAK-FA, NATO members are banned but certain non-European developed country can.

For Pete's sake, the US buys Chinese computer chips to use in weapons systems

Those aren't Chinese chips, but US chips recycled in China.

Would a country like Italy or Australia be enticed to buy a J-20 if the Chinese were able to offer it for 1/2 the price of the F-35.

Australia's buying the F-35 to battle the Chinese.

 

[Evil Flower]

Sources or gtfo, seriously.

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

Would a country like Italy or Australia be enticed to buy a J-20 if the Chinese were able to offer it for 1/2 the price of the F-35.

If there are agreements preventing this, sorry I'm unaware. Just asking the question.

There is more to it than just price, things like interoperability with weaponry and western systems, quality, and the fact that JSF will bring jobs to Italy and Australia, while the other options won't. In the case of Australia the JSF will have a major hub there. All Pacific JSFs will go there to get repaired. Money and jobs baby, and lots of it for the next 40 years. In Italy's case they need an VSTOL aircraft as well, so there is no foreign equivalent to the F-35B. In Canada's case for example the incentives will be enough to pay off the 9 billion they will pay for their JSFs. So essentially they create jobs, get their money back on the initial investment and need only pay operating costs. for the purchase of 65 aircraft they get to supply parts for over 3,000 over the next 40 years. Thats a good deal they won't get anywhere else. 40 years of garunteed jobs and business is more enticing than saving some money initially, and having shorter incentives on a smaller fleet. Once Canada runs the numbers on the competition it becomes a "no brainier" which is why I feel Canada will be back on the JSF soon enough. If they don't then someone else will just take their industrial incentives, and Canada can spend more to get less with fewer perks.

 

[GTX]

Once Canada runs the numbers on the competition it becomes a "no brainier" which is why I feel Canada will be back on the JSF soon enough. If they don't then someone else will just take their industrial incentives, and Canada can spend more to get less with fewer perks.

Though of course the mutterings about "the Arrow" would have been better will continue for decades... ;D

 

[GTX]

If the F-35 cost over-runs and price tag is really that high, what protection do the Chines and Russians have from similar-if not more-cost over-runs? Both the T-50 and J-20 are all new stealth aircraft that are groundbreaking in airframe, avionics, engines, fuel systems, electric flight controls, radar, etc. If the bug is infecting the F-35, its bound to spread to the T-50 and J-20. I find it hard to believe that the Chinese and Russian process has been smooth sailing compared to the F-35s.

There is absolutely nothing preventing this. The difference is that unlike the USA/F-35 program, you won't see it reported. In fact, the same could even be said for European programs. Unfortunately, one of the issues the F-35 must face s that in the USA, there is a heavy emphasis on accountability within programs such as this - for example, where is the equivalent of the DOT&E Reports or GAO reports on the Eurofighter Typhoon? Where are the dozens of news articles carving up the JAS-39 Gripen program based upon some released test report?

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

If the F-35 cost over-runs and price tag is really that high, what protection do the Chines and Russians have from similar-if not more-cost over-runs? Both the T-50 and J-20 are all new stealth aircraft that are groundbreaking in airframe, avionics, engines, fuel systems, electric flight controls, radar, etc. If the bug is infecting the F-35, its bound to spread to the T-50 and J-20. I find it hard to believe that the Chinese and Russian process has been smooth sailing compared to the F-35s.

There is absolutely nothing preventing this. The difference is that unlike the USA/F-35 program, you won't see it reported. In fact, the same could even be said for European programs. Unfortunately, one of the issues the F-35 must face s that in the USA, there is a heavy emphasis on accountability within programs such as this - for example, where is the equivalent of the DOT&E Reports or GAO reports on the Eurofighter Typhoon? Where are the dozens of news articles carving up the JAS-39 Gripen program based upon some released test report?

Putin has already made huge promises in both performance and cost for the PAK-FA : I look forward to seeing his version of honest accountability for the PAK FA

Though of course the mutterings about "the Arrow" would have been better will continue for decades... ;D

...One can only imagine such a thing

 

[SpudmanWP]

The same can be said about the US's budget process and determining yearly program unit (and total) costs.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Where did the numbers come from (link please)?

I think he got from from the same place he sourced the frontal RCS of the Silent Eagle and F-35. In polite company lets just say its somewhere above the legs and bellow the hips where the sun don't shine...

 

[SlowMan]

http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx?plckBlogId=Blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3A27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3A79cc8cc4-5121-4d54-a248-50734928efc9

LRIP 7 is slated to include 35 aircraft: 19 F-35As for the Air Force; six F-35Bs for the Marines ; four F-35Cs for the Navy and six international fighters. They include three F-35As for Italy and two for Norway. The U.K. is slated to buy a single F-35B in LRIP 7.

Turkey was set to buy its first two aircraft in this lot, but those have slipped two years.

The planned breakout for LRIP 8 is as follows: 19 F-35As for the Air Force, six F-35Bs for the Marines, four F-35Cs for the Navy, four F-35Bs for the U.K., two F-35As for Norway, four F-35As for Italy, five F-35As for Israel and four F-35As for Japan.

Lockheed is overestimating the F-35 order numbers, it seems. Italy is guaranteed to order far fewer units, so is UK.

 

[GTX]

Lockheed is overestimating the F-35 order numbers, it seems. Italy is guaranteed to order far fewer units, so is UK.

What makes you think this originates from LM? The JPO (which includes representatives from all JSF Partner Nations, including Italy and the UK) is an equal party to this negotiation and is the one who sets out the numbers being asked for.