The F-35 No Holds Barred topic

[Triton]

"Eglin F-35B conduct first aerial refueling"

Source:
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2012/10/eglin-f-35b-conduct-first-aeri.html

Photo by USMC Corporal Wesley Martins, crew chief KC-130 from 2nd MAW, on October 2, 2012.

 

[Triton]

Source:
http://theaviationist.com/2012/10/04/f35b-aar/

 

[SlowMan]

It is mathematically impossible for the F-35 to win in Korea now.

The terms of offset offered by three vendors was revealed. Both EADS and Boeing agreed to transfer all 51 technologies requested by the ROK MoD, scoring 100% each. Lockheed offered to transfer only 21 out of 51, scoring less than 50%.

Since F-35 is the lowest scorer in the price and offset category(50% of total score), it is not mathematically possible for Lockheed to make up in the other two categories, especially since the performance category is pass/fail, where F-35 may not pass because it cannot fly Mach 1.6 with an external armament(Internal armament not required, external armament required)

 

[chuck4]

South Korean seems focused primarily on building up domestic aerospace industry, and secondarily on having adaquate forces to defend against north Korea while not causing the Chinese to become antagonistic and build up north Korea. F-35 does not fit into this picture unless south Korea is allowed a lot of quick direct access to underlying technology, while actually building only a limited number.

 

[SpudmanWP]

Again, let's hold off commenting/debating in the "News" thread and just wait for the "No Holds Barred" thread to reopen.

 

[SlowMan]

while not causing the Chinese to become antagonistic and build up north Korea.

China's arms supply to North Korea is tied to US arms supply to Taiwan, not the ROK. The ROK does't care about China, because they wouldn't be pressing so hard to have ballistic missiles with enough ranges to strike Beijing and build a naval base to blockade the Yellow Sea in the event of a war. That Jeju naval base is of a high concern to China, because it is 12 hours away from Shanghai by ship and could host two US CBGs simultaneously. Coming up next is the 250 km range SAM program called KL-SAM, which would turn the entire Yellow Sea and much of Southern North Korea into a no-fly zone for the PLAAF.

The F-35 failed in Korean contest because 1. ROKAF command doesn't believe in stealth strike, only 100 km+ stand-off strikes where stealth is unnecessary because most of North Korean positions are accessible by the sea. 2. There is no money to pay for F-35 cost overruns because of other arms building programs. 3. The ROKAF is said to have detected F-22 in the air with their air defense radars.

Now some good news for F-35.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/lockheed-martin-working-with-mitsubishi-on-f-35-line-377480/

Lockheed Martin working with Mitsubishi on F-35 line
By: GREG WALDRON NAGOYA

Lockheed Martin is working with Mitsubishi Heavy Industries on a local final assembly and checkout line for the F-35.

The first Japanese-produced F-35 is scheduled to roll off Mitsubishi's Nagoya line in 2017, says John Balderson, director of Japan F-35 business development for Lockheed Martin.

"We are greatly honoured that Japan chose the F-35," he adds, speaking to Flightglobal on the sidelines of the Japan Aerospace show in Nagoya. "We have tremendous faith in their industry."

 

[quellish]

The ROKAF is said to have detected F-22 in the air with their air defense radars.

That wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Triton]

The ROKAF is said to have detected F-22 in the air with their air defense radars.

That wouldn't surprise me.

What is that?

Is Japan still set to acquire 42 model F-35A? Will Japan also purchase F-35B for its newest DDHs?

 

[SpudmanWP]

It's called a Luneburg lens and is used to provide solid radar returns regardless of the angle to the radar.

 

[quellish]

What is that?

All US VLO aircraft fly with signature enhancement devices unless they are in combat or under test. The only times I know of that they fly without them is rare occasions at the NTTR or near Death Valley.

You can see the Luneburg lens mounted on the F-22 in this Rafale gun camera footage:
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2011/12/08/rafale%20F22.jpg

 

[GTX]

Is Japan still set to acquire 42 model F-35A? Will Japan also purchase F-35B for its newest DDHs?

Yes re F-35As. In fact, I have seen some reports that the JASDF is eventually looking at up to 250 F-35As.


As for F-35Bs, no idea. Whilst it would make sense, the political ramifications (especially in light of recent disputes with China) would make it a very delicate topic/acquisition.

 

[datafuser]

Basically, the F-35 bid submission was so horrible that it was written off before the flight test.

How do you know that?



Did someone at DAPA tell you so?

 

[datafuser]

1. ROKAF command doesn't believe in stealth strike [snip] 3. The ROKAF is said to have detected F-22 in the air with their air defense radars.

Do you have anything to back up your claim or are you just making things up?

 

[SpudmanWP]

Can we please not use the F-35 news thread for conjecture, opinion, debate, etc.

It will only lead to the thread getting locked as people passionately express their opinions.

Let's wait for the "No Holds Barred" thread to open back up.

 

[GTX]

Agreed.

 

[chuck4]

The ROKAF is said to have detected F-22 in the air with their air defense radars.

That wouldn't surprise me.

Wouldn't be totally surprising even without the luneberg lens. Even stealth aircraft needs to be careful with its attitude and flight path to avoid unwanted detection. If the aircraft is not consciously trying to evade particular radars, it could accidentally present an unfavorable angle to these radars and thus be seen.

 

[chuck4]

1. ROKAF command doesn't believe in stealth strike [snip] 3. The ROKAF is said to have detected F-22 in the air with their air defense radars.

Do you have anything to back up your claim or are you just making things up?

So how come the alleged detection of F-22 didn't dissuade ROKAF from sinking money into the indigious KFX stealth fighter?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Will Japan also purchase F-35B for its newest DDHs?

I doubt you could operate F-35Bs from the Hyuga class carrier (DDH). However Japan could build and commission a new F-35B capable aircraft carrier in the time needed to order, deliver and train the crews for the aircraft.

 

[Sea Skimmer]

Japan already is, the new '19000 ton' destroyers, actually expected to be nearer 27,000 tons full load, have a widened flight deck, rearranged and enlarged elevators and rearranged weapons mounts which all strongly suggest a deck intended for jet operations. The first one was laid down early this year and such commission in 2015. Its doubtful any decision has been made even informally to buy F-35B, but its clear these new ships are intended to cover that contingency as well as whatever desirable future fixed wing UAVs may appear.


Hyuga would be pretty crummy given that little deck park would be possible and only the aft elevator can fit F-35B as I recall. Certainly the forward one is too narrow. On the other hand since it could still land and hanger such an aircraft if need be, one 19000t type and one Hyuga operating together would be a pretty potent force. Shift all the ASW helicopters possible to the Hyuga and still have it as a backup flight deck, or even one that does refueling when the 19000t deck is busy.

 

[Sundog]

I think the answer to the LO question is that the F-22 probably has a system to increase it's signature, like the F-117 did, to keep foreign air forces/countries from accurately learning it's actual signature, which wouldn't be required until it was used operationally. Also, being able to detect a stealth aircraft is one thing. Being able to track it and shoot it down is another.

 

[SpudmanWP]

Here is a comparison of the Japan's old and new "heli" carriers.

http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt271/SpudmanWP/22ddh-20101_zps97dc0cc7.jpg

 

[quellish]

I think the answer to the LO question is that the F-22 probably has a system to increase it's signature, like the F-117 did, to keep foreign air forces/countries from accurately learning it's actual signature, which wouldn't be required until it was used operationally. Also, being able to detect a stealth aircraft is one thing. Being able to track it and shoot it down is another.

The F-117, F-22, B-2, and all other VLO platforms all fly with signature enhancement devices when not in combat or on a restricted testing range having it's signature verified. It's policy, and for a variety of reasons.
The F-35 has not flown with any known signature enhancement devices.

 

[Arjen]

If these 22DDH 'destroyers' are limited to carrying helicopters, they can sort-of-reasonably be argued to be defensive kit for anti-submarine use. Adding F-35Bs to their complement might require stretching article 9 of Japan's constitution a bit further.

 

[SpudmanWP]

The F-35 has not flown with any known signature enhancement devices.

The F-35 carries 4. Every F-35 after the first few SDD planes has one in front of each vertical stab both above and below the fuselage.

http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt271/SpudmanWP/f35a_af6_zps36c825d3.jpg

 

[SlowMan]

So how come the alleged detection of F-22 didn't dissuade ROKAF from sinking money into the indigious KFX stealth fighter?

Stealth is for reduced lock on range by fighter jet radars, not to avoid detection.

Stealthy infiltration doesn't work in East Asia with dense air defense network by all major countries. This is why the US AirSea battle concept focuses on stand off strikes.

I think the answer to the LO question is that the F-22 probably has a system to increase it's signature

Well, the F-22 visit was unannounced and unnotified.

If these 22DDH 'destroyers' are limited to carrying helicopters, they can sort-of-reasonably be argued to be defensive kit for anti-submarine use.

Bingo. No heat resistant flight deck and no jet blast deflector for 16DDH and 22DDH. They really are helicopter carriers.

Adding F-35Bs to their complement might require stretching article 9 of Japan's constitution a bit further.

Not at all. They could call it martitime patrol aircraft, problem solved.

More hints of F-35 elimination.

The Defense Ministry announced in its newspaper that is going to announce the KFX development partner which is also the FX3 winner in November. Since Lockheed Martin did not submit a plan for the KFX development participation, it could be anybody but Lockheed Martin.

 

[chuck4]

What is the exhaust temperature of the F-35 in hover? With the entrained air, it is still hot enough to erode steel deck or cause unacceptable thermal expansion? Is there concern with annealing the steel? Or is it just a matter of insulation for the compartments beneath?

 

[SpudmanWP]

You don't need blast defelctors for STOVL ops, see the LHA/LHD/"Ark Royal"/"Príncipe de Asturias"/"Cavour"/"Giuseppe Garibaldi"/etc.

 

[chuck4]

If F-35 needs to take off conventionally to maximize range or payload, blast deflectors would help a lot.

 

[SpudmanWP]

There is no way a F-35B could takeoff conventionally from a LHA class ship. It will always use STO.

Will a JBD shorten the needed length by a few feet, maybe, but it is in no way "needed".

 

[chuck4]

It's needed for safety on deck, not to get the plane in air sooner.

 

[SpudmanWP]

It is not needed for safety as Harriers do not use it today (I have yet to see it).

 

[chuck4]

It is not needed for safety as Harriers do not use it today (I have yet to see it).

I am talking about conventional takeoff. Harriers don't have afterburners blasting horizontally.

 

[SpudmanWP]

F-35Bs are going to be used on LHA/LHDs/etc and the do not have JBDs. It's a non-issue.

They have already been tested at sea without a problem.

You are coming up with a solution for a problem that does not exist.

 

[Thorvic]

Actually the original intention was STO with the Engine full back and augmented by the lift fan and ski-jump. Thats why the CVF designs had JBDs on the STOL take off runs (the original CVF design selected was the 300m version with a second offset take off run that was lost when the ship was shortened by 20m).

However in the time the UK switched to the C and then back to the B that take-off configuration was cancelled so it's full STOL mode only for on-board ship for the time being. The JBD having been dropped now from the QE class carriers as a result, the danger now is to crew under the flight path on the flight deck or walk ways, which should be handled by Safe flight deck procedures.

 

[GTX]

The Defense Ministry announced in its newspaper that is going to announce the KFX development partner which is also the FX3 winner in November. Since Lockheed Martin did not submit a plan for the KFX development participation, it could be anybody but Lockheed Martin.

Would you please produce said story.

 

[SlowMan]

Would you please produce said story.

http://kookbang.dema.mil.kr/kdd/GisaView.jsp?menuCd=3004&menuSeq=1&menuCnt=&writeDate=20121012&kindSeq=3&writeDateChk=20121012

Later in the month the other hand, domestic next fighter (KFX), the results of exploratory development system readiness to develop comprehensive aerospace Policy Council and the National Assembly NDC decided to. Indonesian and foreign companies next fighter (FX) and technical cooperation to the conjunction of Offset was set in November, the systematic development of the Basic Agreement in February next year, to conclude that the DAPA said Friday.

FX-3 contest winner's "offset" is the KFX development participation. Lockheed already said no to such an arrangement(They are trying to sell F-35 here, not develop an F-35 competitor) so this FX-3 winner cannot be Lockheed.

It's either Boeing or EADS CASA. Based on the stock market rally trend of F-15 parts suppliers, Boeing won.

 

[GTX]

Thank you.


Mods: May I suggest the Korean Fighter part of this discussion be broken off into a separate thread.

 

[SlowMan]

Thank you.


Mods: May I suggest the Korean Fighter part of this discussion be broken off into a separate thread.

I was talking in the context of F-35 suffering its first defeat in an international open bidding, which would have lasting ramifications. You will see the JSF partner nations finally jumping ship and switch to open bid contests, in particular Australia, Canada, and Netherlands.

This is why a Boeing win was so important in this Korean contest, so that Boeing could offer the Super Hornet International Roadmap(aka Silent Hornet) as a half-priced JSF alternative.

 

[SpudmanWP]

Give me a break.

By your own admission this is not about the fighters, but about offsets and KFX participation.

They could have offered the F-22 and still lost according to your reading of the events (since performance is pass/fail).

 

[GTX]

This sort of discussion belongs in another thread.


However, please let me rest assure you: having spoken many, many times with the people responsible for such decisions, I know that the Australians are not going to jump ship or have another competition.