Talos and Sea Dart

[uk 75]

When I look at Talos and then Sea Dart I (complete technical bojo) see a strong family likeness.
I then wondered.
Could the US have made use of a smaller Seadart-sized Talos on its ship instead of Tartar/Standard?
Could the RN have fitted a bigger version of Seadart into the existing launchers and magazines on the County class destroyers?

 

[uk 75]

Thanks. I always use the Bar for safety but this is better.

 

[zen]

Could the US have made use of a smaller Seadart-sized Talos on its ship instead of Tartar/Standard?

The missile handling system and magazines for Tartar and Terrier are geared for the 13.5" diameter missiles...especially Tartar. Though the booster gor Terrier might be greater.
Result is a 13.5 diameter ramjet isn't quite as good as Sea Dart's Odin.

Could the RN have fitted a bigger version of Seadart into the existing launchers and magazines on the County class destroyers

Seaslug was 14" diameter but in theory a shorter fatter missile with a tandem stage booster might fit into the Seaslug handling system, launcher and magazine. Depending on the missile fins.
Bristol did study a 21" diameter ramjet which we suspect is related to NIGS.

 

[TomS]

Could the US have made use of a smaller Seadart-sized Talos on its ship instead of Tartar/Standard?

Hypothetically, probably yes. The USN started its work on ramjets with a 6-inch test vehicle and then an 18-inch vehicle in the 1940s and early 50s. But their interest was focused on a very long-range bomber killer, which let to Talos. The shorter-range Tarter was intended as essentially a 5-inch gun replacement and was guidance-limited to a significant degree at the outset -- a ramjet version would just be wasted range. (Terrier was honestly a happy accident -- an aerodynamic test vehicle for Talos that proved useful in its own right and was weaponized when it became clear how massive Talos had to be.)

By the late 1960s, the USN did study a roughly Tartar/Terrier sized ramjet (or strictly air-augmented rocket) missile family called TARSAM. The use of boron-heavy solid fuels probably did it in.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/thrust-augmented-rocket-sam-tarsam.2873/

 

[Yellow Palace]

The shorter-range Tarter was intended as essentially a 5-inch gun replacement and was guidance-limited to a significant degree at the outset -- a ramjet version would just be wasted range.

Worth noting that Sea Dart was as well, but the Royal Navy got requirement creep all over it. You could probably package it into a Mark 11 or Mark 13 launcher without too much difficulty - systems integration is never easy, but the physical envelopes are broadly compatible and the technical documentation is at least written in the same language. The choice of illuminator frequency also drove a lot of the ship's electronics for Sea Dart to be considerably bigger than SPG-51 and the Tartar fire control system.

 

[zen]

Tartar is the product of cutting out the booster from Terrier and using just the missile. At least that's how it began.
At some RN urging for a self defence anti-missile SAM that wasn't bogged down in concepts of 'remote guidance' from a Destroyer controlling the SAM launched from Merchant ships and military transports. Which obsessed the USN.

There was hopes the liquid fueled Meteor AAM was to form the basis. With the UK focusing on Q-band SARH guidance.....something they'd worked on and felt was the best option.
But the USN went it's own way on guidance (G-band) and requirements. Leaving RN hopes dashed. Though the dust thrust motor for Tartar was inspirational.

For years the RN sketched ideas of arming ships with Tartar, but performance to precious dollars ratio never made it worth it. RN kept asking for Q-band guidance and never got it.

Hence Orange Nell. Smaller, lighter than Tartar and with the crucial guidance system.

Which informed the NMBR.11 Tartar successor SAM requirements that led to SIGS....
Which progressively moved the goalposts on range with obvious ambitions to go a lot further.
And that become Sea Dart....with socking great minimum range limits imposed by the booster.
So the quest for the anti-missile SAM went down the PT.428, to Sea Mauler route and ultimately Sea Wolf resulted.

And then as Sea Dart gets closer to Service, RN realises it's not going to get the range without an expensive MkII version that might just need a completely new ship.
And so they start looking at bigger anti-missile missiles. Which had been prompted by the Tripartite discussions on the one hand and the idea of VLS without a launcher to point the missile.