TAI TF-X / Milli Muharip Uçak MMU Kaan

Combat-Master said:
Translated from Spanish
"Today, thanks to our colleagues at @Infodefensa, we know that the Government of Spain has asked TAI about the KAAN, apparently directly, without beating around the bush; very likely as a Plan B manoeuvre in the face of the more than probable end of the FCAS (at least, as it was originally planned).
Click to expand...
This is honestly an expected natural evolution of things.

You get the trainer? (Hürjet) You might as well see if you can get the fighter too (Kaan)...

TA(I) is usually pretty lax with demands for local production and ToT, and since TR and SP got very good relations and are NATO partners, Turkey would probably allow quite sizeable local Spanish production and avionics integration if an order is received and it ends up big enough to justify itself...
 
Last edited:
I am surprised that Spain never looked at GCAP as a suitable alternative to FCAS it is also a sixth generation fighter whereas the KAAN is only fifth generation.
 
FighterJock said:
Spain looking at the KAAN? I suppose that they have no real choice now.
Click to expand...
They’re viewing it as a replacement for the F/A-18, not for the Eurofighter. In other words, a 6th generation aircraft will need to be procured regardless, and Kaan would only serve as a stopgap solution.

That said, similar to Germany, Spain’s main priority is industrial participation. Without that, they’d end up simply buying into whatever Western 6th gen platform is available in the 2040s.

That is where the opportunity with the Kaan comes in for them in case they end up only being an export customer of whatever Western 6th gen is available.
 
So the KAAN is a replacement for the F/A-18 snne, so the GCAP and the FCAS successor whatever that may be will replace the Typhoon thanks.
 
FighterJock said:
I am surprised that Spain never looked at GCAP as a suitable alternative to FCAS it is also a sixth generation fighter whereas the KAAN is only fifth generation.
Click to expand...
I don't think we can meaningfully split them into different generations, at least not yet.
GCAP is less risk in advanced engine part, it's more risk in the first place.
 
I can see your point Ainen, this generations thing has gone too far.
 
Deputy General Manager of the National Fighter Aircraft Program at TA(I):

  • Low-volume serial production of the Kaan is ready and TA(I) has reached a capacity to produce 6 to 9 aircraft per year
  • TA(I) have designed a new production facility capable of producing an additional 24 aircraft per year
Click to expand...

  • The second Kaan prototype (P1-P2?) will take flight within a few months
  • The third Kaan (P2?) will be on its landing gear next month
  • The fourth Kaan (P3?) is also expected to be on its landing gear by the end of the year#
Click to expand...

In summary, the production infrastructure is ready and additional production lines are in the works, while the prototype fleet continues flight testing and certification efforts.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2052390028647530541
View: https://x.com/T_Nblty/status/2052390028647530541?s=20
 
Last edited:
Would Turkey be willing to grant export customers access to the aircraft's source codes to give them complete autonomy over any modifications or weapons integration ? That could give them a significant advantage over other fighters.
 
alberchico said:
Would Turkey be willing to grant export customers access to the aircraft's source codes to give them complete autonomy over any modifications or weapons integration ? That could give them a significant advantage over other fighters.
Click to expand...
I think even Turkey would hesitate to hand over the entirety of the source code to any customer (since the source code involves far more than just payload management), even though they’re unfortunately quite lax about these things. But if demanded, weapons integration would be a sure thing. Spain and Turkey are very close and limited access to the source code honestly wouldn’t surprise me at all.

Still, much like what Turkey is doing with the F-16, I’m sure the Spanish would want to integrate their own mission computer in such a deal so they can freely integrate whatever payload they want. Correct me if I’m mistaken, but I believe Turkey already allowed just that under the Hürjet deal.

We obviously can’t compare the export terms of a LIFT trainer to those of a fifth-generation fighter, but it does establish a precedent between Spain and Turkey that could potentially carry over to the Kaan if the FCAS program formally collapses altogether and a large order is received.

Slightly off-topic:

Think about it: Turkey sold Akıncı drones to the UAE last year, despite the UAE continuing to destabilize, and at times directly attack, countries in Africa that Turkey maintains good relations with. And just two days ago Turkey, against all logic, agreed to integrate “indigenous” Emirati Mk-series bomb kits onto the Akıncı.

(The funny part is that just the other day, an Emirati Akıncı was shot down over Sudan by a Sudanese Akıncı using Eren missiles, meaning a Turkish-made aircraft scored a kill against another Turkish-made aircraft with a Turkish missile.)
 
snne said:
(The funny part is that just the other day, an Emirati Akıncı was shot down over Sudan by a Sudanese Akıncı using Eren missiles, meaning a Turkish-made aircraft scored a kill against another Turkish-made aircraft with a Turkish missile.)
Click to expand...

A sort of an "Own Goal" shoot-down;):D.
 
FighterJock said:
I am surprised that Spain never looked at GCAP as a suitable alternative to FCAS it is also a sixth generation fighter whereas the KAAN is only fifth generation.
Click to expand...
From the referenced article:

"3. The UK Factor (GCAP)

While France and Germany are fighting, the GCAP (Tempest) project is progressing at a much smoother pace. The irony would be that the disintegration of the FCAS could end up pushing Germany and Spain to knock on the British door (the Germans are already doing so through Italy, as I mentioned earlier), leaving France alone in its technological grandeur.

A note of realism: In defense, "too big to fail" is a dangerous phrase. The FCAS is currently surviving more due to political will (to avoid admitting the failure of the Franco-German axis) than to industrial harmony.

Now let's turn to what we call "backroom geopolitics." What we are describing is not just a possibility, but the scenario that many defense analysts are already taking for granted behind closed doors. Spain's situation is, indeed, the most precarious. While Germany has the muscle to "buy" its entry into other projects and France has the sovereignty to go it alone, Spain risks being seen as the partner who paid for the party but missed out on the dance."

https://defensayseguridad.es/kaan-l...ballo-negro-del-tablero-aeronautico-1a-parte/

Spain went with the FCAS because that's an EU program. Switching to GCAP should be the logical choice, but the current Government is a mess of little parties, acting under hidden and conflicting interests that are completely at odds with the logical and not precisely favorable to the general/geopolitical interests of the nation.

If these interests remain in power, and the current volatile global situation persists, Spain's geopolitical moves are unpredictable.

It seemed more logical to me that Spain would replace the F-5 with the M-346, but right now I wouldn't rule out seeing the Kaan replacing the F-18. Following that logic, will the Kizilelma replace the Navy's AV-8Bs?
 
NMaude said:
A sort of an "Own Goal" shoot-down;):D.
Click to expand...
Nope, full success story. UAE pay for their drones in very needed currency, when currency started fighting against Turkish interests - it got shoot down, without harming Turkish reputation (no backdoors in UAE product, no monkey models), all fair.
 
Antonio said:
It seemed more logical to me that Spain would replace the F-5 with the M-346, but right now I wouldn't rule out seeing the Kaan replacing the F-18. Following that logic, will the Kizilelma replace the Navy's AV-8Bs?
Click to expand...
Perhaps because the M-346 isn’t supersonic, wasn’t developed in the 2020s with fifth-generation training in mind, and wasn’t paired with the kind of industrial package Turkey was willing to offer? Come on, man; basic logic beats the whole "but muh European" argument. The Hürjet was clearly the stronger offer, especially considering Spain spent years shopping around before eventually turning to TA(I) because nobody else was willing to provide terms that advantageous.

Anyway, let’s not derail the thread any further guys...

@overscan (PaulMM) could you move the Hürjet discussion to the proper Hürjet thread please?
 
snne said:
Come on, man; basic logic beats the whole "but muh European" argument.
Click to expand...
Considering just plain commercial factors, I fully agree, Turkey offers are competitive and hard to ignore.
However. the final decision on a military hardware purchase is also under geopolitical considerations too.
 
snne said:
Perhaps because the M-346 isn’t supersonic, wasn’t developed in the 2020s with fifth-generation training in mind, and wasn’t paired with the kind of industrial package Turkey was willing to offer? Come on, man; basic logic beats the whole "but muh European" argument. The Hürjet was clearly the stronger offer, especially considering Spain spent years shopping around before eventually turning to TA(I) because nobody else was willing to provide terms that advantageous.

Anyway, let’s not derail the thread any further guys...

@overscan (PaulMM) could you move the Hürjet discussion to the proper Hürjet thread please?
Click to expand...
No intention to go off-topic, just pointing out that Spanish previous Hürjet order adds sense to a Kaan interest.
 
Antonio said:
However. the final decision on a military hardware purchase is also under geopolitical considerations too.
Click to expand...
What geopolitical considerations are there to make? Spain and Turkey are NATO allies with very good bilateral relations. It’s hard to beat that level of geopolitical and military alignment, whereas the EU is just a political union that frankly everyone treats as a U.S. puppet organization anyway.

It’s not as if individual EU member states haven’t had disputes and confrontations with each other before... The EU does not dictate foreign policy to its members; each country retains control over its own foreign affairs... That’s why France can enter an alliance against Turkey whilst Italy and Spain can have very close relations with Turkey...

Antonio said:
No intention to go off-topic, just pointing out that Spanish previous Hürjet order adds sense to a Kaan interest.
Click to expand...
Still, you might have noticed we are delving deeper and deeper into an off-topic discussion which would suit the Hürjet thread better…
 
Last edited:
kqcke for you said:
Spains showing interrest in KAAN is in every way good for them.

Either they invest into it when the others can't offer them what turkey can or they simply use it to pressure the others
Click to expand...

...and if Turkey is considering a larger manned platform for MUGEM than the Hürjet, it would also mean other interesting prospects for Spain for the more distant future.
 
Geo said:
...and if Turkey is considering a larger manned platform for MUGEM than the Hürjet, it would also mean other interesting prospects for Spain for the more distant future.
Click to expand...
That'd make sense, but it would also require CATOBAR and EMALS, even though Turkish Navy is moving ahead with a STOBAR configuration.

The Hürjet development team is now officially working on navalizing the Hürjet. According to a recent quote I'm trying to find, there will be a strengthened structure and landing gear, but with minimal differences - i.e., no F414 or other differences as big.

We might disagree with them but it's apparent that the Turkish Navy is not envisioning to use its carrier against militarily strong countries, which would require having manned 5th-gens on deck. They think having fighter and flying wing type drones operating from the carrier would be sufficient.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Not going off-topic, but considering again the circumstances favouring a Kaan purchase from Spain.
Turkey, Spain and Italy are toying with the idea of building a medium sized CV for their navies. Again, Spain would be in a difficult situation to select a fighter for it. A naval variant of the Kaan could be a strong option with the land variant already operating with the Ejército del Aire.
 
Antonio said:
It seemed more logical to me that Spain would replace the F-5 with the M-346, but right now I wouldn't rule out seeing the Kaan replacing the F-18. Following that logic, will the Kizilelma replace the Navy's AV-8Bs?
Click to expand...
Logic already failed. European partnerships were via EU framework, it won't deliver. GCAP is not much different from US, you can buy, you can not buy.

Hurjet/Kaan is obviously a high risk play, even when both planes are already flying. But at least by risking it, local industry gets all participation it can grab.
 
Combat-Master said:
Aselsan ARTLINK GHOST 100 - Inter-Vehicular Data Link for Manned-Unmanned Teaming | Already operational on Kizilelma
Click to expand...
They showed the real product for the first time at last year’s IDEF, but it’s nice to see the conformal antenna of the IVDL datalink has finally been assigned a manufacturer code.

snne said:
The IVDL conformal antennas of the Kaan are being exhibited for the first time.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I suspect the new naval aircraft will probably take in what Turkey have learned from the KAAN and combine them to a new navalised airframe but borowing avionics and probably engines from the KAAN to keep development time to a bare minimum.
 
Does KAAN refuel using boom or drogue? It seems no refueling port is visible on either the nose or the upper fuselage.
 

Attachments

  • 1780158956023.png
    1780158956023.png
    885.4 KB · Views: 121
Last edited by a moderator:
JetBrain said:
Does KAAN refuel using boom or drogue? It seems no refueling port is visible on either the nose or the upper fuselage.
Click to expand...
The TurAF fighter fleet has always consisted exclusively of boom receptacle-equipped aircraft (except for the F-100), and both Kaan and Hürjet are going to be equipped with boom receptacles as well.

You attached a photo of the outdated technology demonstrator prototype design (P0/GTU-0).
The new production-representative prototypes (P1 and P2) have not yet been fitted with receptacles, but P3 and subsequent prototypes are scheduled to begin flight testing next year and conduct weapons trials, which should involve everything required to achieve the full operational envelope (including refueling!)...

Turkey is currently conducting studies on dedicated UAV tankers for refueling other UAVs (not buddy refueling), and we guesstimate that these will utilize the probe-and-drogue system... (just like TurAF's new Eurofighters!)

(They have also been in negotiations with Airbus and Boeing for a KC-135R replacement for a very long time)
 

Attachments

  • 1000095632.jpg
    1000095632.jpg
    204.1 KB · Views: 94
Last edited by a moderator:

TÜBİTAK MARMARA components for KAAN​

Explosion Prevention System​

Life Support System​

1780388661481.png ​
1780388667823.png ​
The system, designed for the MMU (National Combat Aircraft) platform, consists of units and components for pressurizing fuel tanks and inerting internal fuel tanks. From the moment the engines are started on the ground, the system is intended to perform all its functions throughout the entire mission profile, including climb and air-to-air refueling operations. The inerting of internal fuel tanks is primarily achieved by creating a flow of Nitrogen Enriched Air (NEA). This is done using an Air Separation Module (ASM) composed of Hollow Fiber Membranes (HFM), which separates oxygen from conditioned Environmental Control System (ECS) air and delivers the NEA flow to the fuel tanks according to the mission profile requirements.​
The Life Support System (LSS) is designed to provide advanced physiological protection for the crew of high-speed and high-altitude combat aircraft within the National Combat Aircraft (MMU) platform. The LSS aims to protect the crew from the adverse effects of high-altitude flights and extreme gravitational (G) forces. The Life Support System (LSS) is designed to fulfill three main functions: • Providing altitude protection for the aircrew • Protecting the aircraft crew from the effects of G-forces • Supplying breathable and ventilating/anti-fogging gas of acceptable quality to the aircrew​
 
F-2 said:
HFFM data by Mav-JP and Raptor one


Wikipedia citing
  • NAVAIR 01-F-14AAD-1A F-14D NATOPS FLIGHT MANUAL January 2004 PART 1 CH-2 Section 2.2 "Engine" pg "2–9".
Click to expand...

"The new KAAN engine we've developed produces 80% more power at high altitudes compared to the F16 engine. Nearly double."

TF35000 is designed to produce 80% more power than the F110 at high altitude. No speed specified.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2061724496239763782
View: https://x.com/KaraKulak__/status/2061724496239763782

Made these graphs with AI
 

Attachments

  • 1780392382552.png
    1780392382552.png
    304.9 KB · Views: 49
  • 1780392423524.png
    1780392423524.png
    268.1 KB · Views: 65
Last edited by a moderator:
Combat-Master said:
MURAD 600-A - President of Poland, Nawrocki, visit to ASELSAN
View attachment 816153
Click to expand...
Mhmm, the aperture in the photo appears to use a brick architecture rather than the tile architecture seen on the MURAD-100A/200A family, which would make sense given that brick architectures offer better thermal management and higher output power. That's exactly the sort of approach you'd take to capitalize on Kaan's inherently greater power generation and cooling capacity.

It also doesn't look like that ancient mock-up either, it's also being displayed right next to a mock-up of the Karat IRST family featured on the Kaan/Kizilelma.

We'll have to wait for stronger evidence before assigning any real probability to it being the actual MURAD-600A. At this point, we simply can't draw any firm conclusions yet, guys...

Update: Never mind, guys... It's not a new mock-up after all; this thing has been around for at least 2–3 years IIRC...:

1767955003994-png.797948


Update #2: I think I'm being reasonable enough here @Combat-Master , but I guess my point isn't coming across very well...

What I'm trying to say is that there are indeed some fairly strong indicators that this could be an actual mock-up of the MURAD-600A; I just don't think we have enough evidence in hand yet to treat it as a confirmed fact...
 
Last edited:

US to move forward with Turkey jet engine sales ahead of NATO summit, sources say​


https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...les-ahead-nato-summit-sources-say-2026-06-24/

The Trump administration plans to approve a ≈ $700 million sale of GE jet engines for Turkey’s indigenous Kaan fighter, despite objections from the House Foreign Affairs Committee. The move signals a diplomatic overture to Ankara ahead of the NATO summit in Istanbul, even though the U.S. has previously sanctioned Turkey over its S‑400 purchase and removal from the F‑35 program. A formal State Department notification to Congress is expected in the coming days, but congressional approval remains pending.
 
Last edited:
Combat-Master said:

US to move forward with Turkey jet engine sales ahead of NATO summit, sources say​


https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...les-ahead-nato-summit-sources-say-2026-06-24/
Click to expand...
I assume they're going to approve the request and send it to Congress, and that this covers all pre-B30 aircraft --however many that may be (40+)--, rather than just the B10 batch? There's a significant lead time associated with military turbofans, especially the American ones...

If the aircraft are to be delivered by ~Q1 2029, it's high time they finalized this and the actual contracting got underway.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2069881877163602148
View: https://x.com/clashreport/status/2069881877163602148?s=20

https://twitter.com/x/status/2070041072231665682
View: https://x.com/i/status/2070041072231665682
 
Last edited:
Combat-Master said:
There's talk that the NATO Summit in Ankara on 7–8 July will have a significant defence industry component. It'd be nice if they rolled out the prototype for a flight. :)
Click to expand...
There's been chatter since May that the P1's first flight has unfortunately slipped to August? Heard what you're referring to as well...

Well, it's finally happening guys....

https://twitter.com/x/status/2070269761141842313
View: https://x.com/humeyra_pamuk/status/2070269761141842313?s=20

snne said:
I assume they're going to approve the request and send it to Congress, and that this covers all pre-B30 aircraft --however many that may be (40+)--, rather than just the B10 batch? There's a significant lead time associated with military turbofans, especially the American ones...

If the aircraft are to be delivered by ~Q1 2029, it's high time they finalized this and the actual contracting got underway.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom