TAI TF-X / Milli Muharip Uçak MMU Kaan

FighterJock said:
Forget that it is not that big as the J-20.
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There's a saying in Turkish that roughly translates to "A madman threw a stone into the well, but forty wise men couldn't get it out."

Someone shared this false scale comparison and everyone on Turkish miltwitter took it for real for some reason(maybe they have a size fetish or smth?). Look at it, even the same nozzles have different sizes. And F119 is not that small either.

In reality, Kaan is only a meter longer than F-22 and although F-22 has larger wings, they have the same wing area. But someone out of touch would think Kaan is as large as a Flanker according to this false comparison.
 
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FighterJock said:
Though I do wonder what the Radar Cross Section is of the KAAN compared to say the J-20 after all physical size is not everything.
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Well acc. to open source analysis, J-20's frontal RCS is actually pretty low and close to F-35, however beginning from +60° horizontal, J-20's RCS starts to increase. @stealthflanker

average-rcs-2.png
average-rcs.png
median-rcs.png
capture-6.png


https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsanda...vs-su-57-radar-scattering-simulation-summary/

Turkey had an important industrial participation in the F-35/JSF programme and Kaan has overall pretty clean lines, so my expectations are a bit high for Block 20. I'd still consider Block 10 (early delivery model) to be LO and somewhere in between current Su-57 and J-20 production aircraft (not J-20A though), however it could develop into a pretty competitive 5th gen fighter with Block 20(VLO).

Kaan Block 0/GTU-0/P0 (tech demonstrator):

tfx-side-view-png.65823


P:S. The image I'm attaching below is from a slide during an Anatolian Eagle '21 presentation to foreign personnel, and the aircraft has evolved significantly since then. It's important to note that the figures shown below were the minimum requirements of TurAF during that period and that requirement may have pretty well changed; we also don't know the details regarding the given numbers, i.e. from which sectors are the given figures from, are they for the first delivery block or the second, etc. ...


TF-X-MMU-Radar-Kesit-Alani.jpg


Anyway, I think it is still way too early to talk about RCS yet, the aircraft has just made its maiden flight recently and there's still a long road ahead before it gets delivered and gets improved upon the base block.
 
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Any ideas as to what the rather big air to air missile is? A long range missile? Or is it Turkeys equivalent to the Meteor?
 
FighterJock said:
Any ideas as to what the rather big air to air missile is? A long range missile? Or is it Turkeys equivalent to the Meteor?
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This:

gokdogan.jpg


snne said:
Their names were mentioned just to give the audience some idea (mind the parenthesis), the bays are designed around Bozdogan(WVR,, AIM-9XBII equivalent), Gökdogan(BVR, AIM-210C7 equivalent) and Gökhan (Liquid fuel ramjet, Meteor equivalent) missiles.

These indigenous missiles are also not just some copies, while they might look alike, they are thicker than their American equivalents as an example and they also happen to have dual pulse capabilities. They are also launched from the same rails and fed information from the same radar, so it makes sense that they would look similar to American missiles.


https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...-test-of-bozdogan-wvr-air-to-air-missile-4490
https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/content/bozdagan-gokdogan-missiles-enter-serial-production-5736

The quoted ranges are open to some speculation though. Army and the Air Force usually give NEZ or (at least near-NEZ ranges) as official figures(this part has been confirmed), and this would be in line with these missiles' and their equivalents' capabilities. But they are never going to publish top secret data though.

maxresdefault.jpg

GOKDOGAN-BOZDOGAN.jpg

60770ea1d2237.jpg


Anyway, I hope I managed to clarify some things or at least informed you a little.
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Meteor equivalent is still under development, but IMHO the tests might have begun or may begin soon; it is kept tightly under wraps
 
https://twitter.com/x/status/1768828976577831424
View: https://x.com/KeremHok/status/1768828976577831424?s=20


I too watched the show to confirm and he does indeed say what is written in tweet.


"-The first plane will continue flying and fire munitions.
-Our main goal is to make the planes we call Blok10. We are manufacturing them now. There will be 6 of them.-We have 2 planes that we will use for static tests. Meanwhile, Iron Bird is coming.
-We test all systems over and over again.
-We will also fire weapons, while this work will continue.
-Domestic engine coming in 2028."
 
Radonislav said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1768828976577831424
View: https://x.com/KeremHok/status/1768828976577831424?s=20


I too watched the show to confirm and he does indeed say what is written in tweet.


"-The first plane will continue flying and fire munitions.
-Our main goal is to make the planes we call Blok10. We are manufacturing them now. There will be 6 of them.-We have 2 planes that we will use for static tests. Meanwhile, Iron Bird is coming.
-We test all systems over and over again.
-We will also fire weapons, while this work will continue.
-Domestic engine coming in 2028."
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Also he stated that there are 3 (Block 10) prototypes in production
 
Y'all need to hold your horses. Now, i did not watch the interview; but from what I can gather he did not mean it'll happen soon. I personally expect the weapon trials to commence by Q4 2025 or Q1 2026.

It had its first flight only recently and hasn't even flown for a second time yet. It is also a very new experience for Turkey considering it is Turkish Aerospace's (indigenously developed) second supersonic and second (V)LO aircraft design. Now, Low-Observability wise, Baykar's supersonic-capable Kizilelma has been flying for close to two years by now and TA also flew the Anka-3 flying wing drone but these are still some very new in-house capabilities for Turkey.

In @Radonislav 's post, the CEO says that they're still analysing the collected data and that the second flight is still some time away. He also repeated his previous statements regarding the indigenous engine in that the flight tests are going to start in 2028, but the actual delivery to squadrons is still going to happen later than that (by 2030).
 
FighterJock said:
Okay so no weapons firing just yet, I supose I can wait for that moment to arrive when it finaly does snne, let's get the basics out of the way first in terms of flight testing.
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In order to release payloads, it first has to have internal bays. Or else they can only test external payloads and pylons. I always feel the need to underline this but the aircraft that flew was supposed to stay as a ground test article. Only after assembling it have they changed their minds and decided to make it airworthy and fly it. They changed some subcomponents in order to do that but they still haven't installed an internal bay and its doors because this prototype (P0) is a quasi-tech demonstrator, at most it will fly a couple of times before the real prototypes emerge.

Those tests will begin with P1,P2 & onwards.
 
snne said:
In order to release payloads, it first has to have internal bays. Or else they can only test external payloads and pylons. I always feel the need to underline this but the aircraft that flew was supposed to stay as a ground test article. Only after assembling it have they changed their minds and decided to make it airworthy and fly it. They changed some subcomponents in order to do that but they still haven't installed an internal bay and its doors because this prototype (P0) is a quasi-tech demonstrator, at most it will fly a couple of times before the real prototypes emerge.

Those tests will begin with P1,P2 & onwards.
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I agree with you but his wording sounds like they are going to perform some weapons tests with this one, maybe a misunderstanding
 
But yeah, keep in mind that main goal is 6 Block 10 prototypes. P1 (1st Block 10 prototype) should be ready by or in 2025. We have seen its parts produced in Q1 2023
 
Radonislav said:
I agree with you but his wording sounds like they are going to perform some weapons tests with this one, maybe a misunderstanding
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That's why I wrote this:
In order to release payloads, it first has to have internal bays. Or else they can only test external payloads and pylons. I always feel the need to underline this but the aircraft that flew was supposed to stay as a ground test article. ...
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But overall I agree with you, I'm simply saying that they can't test internal storage and release just yet.
 
@snne - fair enough, yet USAF replacement trainer delayed another year. US Army can't build a new helicopter to save itself. Europe? Well I will leave it to someone on their side of the pond to respond, but my sensing is that they are not much better. Turkish, Korean, and China's (?) Aerospace sectors are ascendant. Others are buried under governmental bureaucracy that hinders development and adds to cost.
 
"After Hürkuş was completed, we discussed building a 19-seater passenger plane. At that time, (SSB President) İsmail Demir wanted a jet training plane (Hürjet). The state said, let's build the jet training plane first, then let's build KAAN.

Now we are building 3 KAANs, we will make 3 more KAANs afterwards, we are making 2 more KAAN static articles. We will use 2 KAAN static articles in mechanical tests, 6 KAAN will perform test flights. After that, we have the option of making 20 of them and giving them to the Air Force in 2028.

The (national) engine project for KAAN started later than KAAN. Of course, it would have been better if it started earlier. But in 2028, the Turkish engine will be on this plane. Its (development) task has been given to TR Motor and TEI.

ANKA-3 is currently flying at high subsonic speed. The new version of this, the two-engined one, will exceed the speed of sound (probably ANKA-4, wingman for KAAN). ANKA-3 will fly together with KAAN. ANKA-3 is expendable, but KAAN is not.

ANKA-3, we have now produced the second and third (birds). We will make the delivery at the end of this year (2024) or next year (2025). We'll soon make it payload-delivering.

Our wind tunnel cost 100 million USD. Europe's 2nd tunnel."
Repost from @snne @sinodefenceforum
 
Radonislav said:
"After Hürkuş was completed, we discussed building a 19-seater passenger plane. At that time, (SSB President) İsmail Demir wanted a jet training plane (Hürjet). The state said, let's build the jet training plane first, then let's build KAAN.

Now we are building 3 KAANs, we will make 3 more KAANs afterwards, we are making 2 more KAAN static articles. We will use 2 KAAN static articles in mechanical tests, 6 KAAN will perform test flights. After that, we have the option of making 20 of them and giving them to the Air Force in 2028.

The (national) engine project for KAAN started later than KAAN. Of course, it would have been better if it started earlier. But in 2028, the Turkish engine will be on this plane. Its (development) task has been given to TR Motor and TEI.

ANKA-3 is currently flying at high subsonic speed. The new version of this, the two-engined one, will exceed the speed of sound (probably ANKA-4, wingman for KAAN). ANKA-3 will fly together with KAAN. ANKA-3 is expendable, but KAAN is not.

ANKA-3, we have now produced the second and third (birds). We will make the delivery at the end of this year (2024) or next year (2025). We'll soon make it payload-delivering.

Our wind tunnel cost 100 million USD. Europe's 2nd tunnel."
Repost from @snne @sinodefenceforum
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You should edit it, I just copy-pasted auto translation :)
 
In a Turkish interview, Dr. Kotil says "we will be in trouble if the indigenous engine is not ready by 2028". It is not clear if he uses "we" as a reference to the country or Tusas management. Also, it is not clear if "trouble" means ending up with no engines or not. Some may even claim he uses such wording to encourage faster development. Basically, open to any kind of speculation, make of that what you will.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUp0ircWldk
 
Out of the loop but how far ahead is the Turkish engine project? Afaik 'debugging' and bringing reliabilty up to production standard for an engine that's essentially ready can take 5 years... Considering this is their first fighter-scale engine, this looks extremely ambitious to put it politely.
 
The most similar projects are TEI's TS1400 turboshaft and TF6000 turbofan engines.

TS1400 first ignited in 2018, and about to enter (or maybe just entered) serial production.
TF6000 first ignited this month.

TF35000 which will be used in Kaan is designed by TRMotor (in collaboration with Ivchenko Progress) and will be built by TEI. It is not explicitly stated when they started working on it. It is up to you to decide if previous TEI projects would constitute an example.

Edit: TF6000 started in 2020 [1]. TF35000 started in 2022 [2].
[1]: https://www.defenceturkey.com/sahaexpo1.pdf
[2]:
View: https://youtu.be/n0Z4Mt49804?t=2458
 
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ahmettasci said:
In a Turkish interview, Dr. Kotil says "we will be in trouble if the indigenous engine is not ready by 2028". It is not clear if he uses "we" as a reference to the country or Tusas management. Also, it is not clear if "trouble" means ending up with no engines or not. Some may even claim he uses such wording to encourage faster development. Basically, open to any kind of speculation, make of that what you will.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUp0ircWldk
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That doesn't imply anything? Haven't you ever listened to him before? That's the way he talks, it is incomprehensible.

For 4 years we all thought what he called as the "Jemsah drone" to be a flying wing successor to Anka, then once it was revealed it turned out to be a supersonic target drone. All of us thought that what eventually turned out to be a supersonic target drone was a flying wing aircraft, a la Anka-3.

I can tell you this from experience, his wording is all over the place and his tongue often slips and this frequently causes misunderstandings.

Back in 2019 we thought the long endurance Aksungur drone was going to be integrated with air to air missiles because of what he said during one of his interviews. Such things happen all the time with him.

He uses the word "trouble" whenever he talks about other projects as well, but that doesn't imply trouble as in the real meaning of the word, it implies a sense of imperativeness in his speech. In this case, I'd agree with him, it is imperative that the aircraft matures and gets into service.

What's clear is that it is still too early to talk about the indigenous engine. Its stepping stone, TEI's TF6000/10000 engine, just had its first run two weeks ago. They developed this high bypass turbofan engine with RCS reduction and IR suppression in mind, so that when it is time to implement these technologies on the TF35000, they can get away with upscaling it.

Hence, to be able to make predictions about the time frame of Kaan's indigenous engine, we first have to see how this TF6000/10000 matures.

The officials earnestly emphasize that the engine is going to be integrated on the aircraft in 2028 and that the testing's going to take roughly two years. We also know that TEI and TR Motor have been working on this engine for 3 years now. Since TEI actually managed to deliver a modern turbofan of a smaller scale, my gut tells me that we should take their word and wait and see until it happens.

Even if there are delays, the plan is still to deliver first 20 aircraft using GE F110 engines. With 8 total prototypes, I'd say they can tweak the aircraft enough to meet the deadline in 2028.

Till then, they're still the people in charge with developing this aircraft, so I'd prefer taking their words over wasting my time making speculations.
 
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Dr. Fahrettin Öztürk, vice president of Tusaş, says that Kaan will have TVC nozzle in his recent article.

haber.aero

TUSAŞ’ta hasat zamanı geldi! (3. Bölüm)

TUSAŞ tarafından geliştirilen Milli Muharip Uçak (MMU) KAAN, Türk havacılık tarihinde yüzyılın projesi olarak nitelendirilen çift motorlu, düşük görünürlüklü, sensör
haber.aero haber.aero

This will higly likely not be in the initial blocks though.
 
ahmettasci said:
Dr. Fahrettin Öztürk, vice president of Tusaş, says that Kaan will have TVC nozzle in his recent article.

haber.aero

TUSAŞ’ta hasat zamanı geldi! (3. Bölüm)

TUSAŞ tarafından geliştirilen Milli Muharip Uçak (MMU) KAAN, Türk havacılık tarihinde yüzyılın projesi olarak nitelendirilen çift motorlu, düşük görünürlüklü, sensör
haber.aero haber.aero

This will higly likely not be in the initial blocks though.
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I'm kinda expecting them to use axisymmetric thrust vectoring, like the Russians use. It's honestly a simple add to an existing engine: instead of anchoring the "turkey feather" actuators directly to the engine, they get attached to a ring that is attached to 3x or 4x hydraulic cylinders that are anchored to the engine farther forward. Only needs like 15cm travel in those ring actuators, too, so it's fairly light.
 
ahmettasci said:
Dr. Fahrettin Öztürk, vice president of Tusaş, says that Kaan will have TVC nozzle in his recent article.

haber.aero

TUSAŞ’ta hasat zamanı geldi! (3. Bölüm)

TUSAŞ tarafından geliştirilen Milli Muharip Uçak (MMU) KAAN, Türk havacılık tarihinde yüzyılın projesi olarak nitelendirilen çift motorlu, düşük görünürlüklü, sensör
haber.aero haber.aero

This will higly likely not be in the initial blocks though.
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Dude, the plane flew only for once, cut em some slack, will ya? Enough with the speculations, lets wait and see how things end up being. Currently it is way too early to talk about these, we gotta wait and see how the engine materializes.
 
Manuducati said:
For memory:
Thrust vectoring F110 were flown mid 90's. F-16 MATV (Multi Axis Thrust Vectoring) program, with General Electric AVEN (Axisymmetric Vectoring Exhaust Nozzle).
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Nice info. I believe Turks so far used TVC only in Bozdoğan A2A missile.
 
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Manuducati said:
For memory:
Thrust vectoring F110 were flown mid 90's. F-16 MATV (Multi Axis Thrust Vectoring) program, with General Electric AVEN (Axisymmetric Vectoring Exhaust Nozzle).
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This is the preliminary design that TEI and TR Motor were working on, at least the afterburner mixer part looks like that of a proper 5th gen fighter engine to my admittedly amateur eyes. @F119Doctor what do you think?

KaanEngine.jpg

Below are F110 and F119 as references

F110
GE-F110129.jpg


F119
5-nozzles-pw119-f22-engine-l.jpg
 
snne said:
In order to release payloads, it first has to have internal bays. Or else they can only test external payloads and pylons. I always feel the need to underline this but the aircraft that flew was supposed to stay as a ground test article. Only after assembling it have they changed their minds and decided to make it airworthy and fly it. They changed some subcomponents in order to do that but they still haven't installed an internal bay and its doors because this prototype (P0) is a quasi-tech demonstrator, at most it will fly a couple of times before the real prototypes emerge.

Those tests will begin with P1,P2 & onwards.
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Radonislav said:
I agree with you but his wording sounds like they are going to perform some weapons tests with this one, maybe a misunderstanding
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Might just use GTU-0 as a flying testbed for sensors, firing externally. Software seems to be one of the more problematic parts of the F-35 programme. The earlier this stuff gets tested in the air, the better.
 

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