Sukhoi Su-57 / T-50 / PAK FA - flight testing and development Part II

[tequilashooter]

Guess I am assuming this is why he thought the Himalayas had a radar role. https://vpk.name/news/144206_kret_r...borby_s_vozdushno-kosmicheskimi_ugrozami.html

"For example, the Himalayas EW complex uses the energy resource of the radar to provide protection at certain points of space. All this is done to ensure that the aircraft has the ability to circular view of space in passive and active modes, had the opportunity to provide 100% protection also round, so that communication and control systems, electronic combat cover the aircraft from all radii. This is how the capabilities of various electronic systems are complexed, which makes the aircraft as secure and invulnerable as possible. Communication systems can also be used in protected modes - to form the transmission of information not in a circular, but in the direction of only those points where it needs to reset a particular flight information, get a job or information of other importance. This is also done to ensure the maximum capabilities of the aircraft in the use of weapons, to maximize the capabilities of electronic protection. We can say that in the FA PAC everything works in the general contour of the digital control system of the aircraft and provides maximum comfort and maximum controllability for pilots."

- KRET has already talked about the features of the Himalayas electronic warfare system and the strapdown inertial navigation system (SINS) installed on the PAK FA. Now we want to draw your attention to a fundamentally new radar that was developed for the PAK FA. This radar has several ranges of operation and will work not only in the front hemisphere - it will also have a number of possibilities for all-round visibility so that the pilot has complete information about the radar situation, so that, without taking maneuvering actions, he can find out what is happening to the left. on the right, behind in automatic mode with projection on the helmet and on the interactive glass of the cockpit.

Source is from 2015, So I guess its safe to assume the Su-57 has newer radars which is why the encryption software stated Sh-121M.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Is that one in the Levcon edge also L-band ? If so it's kinda make me think why having 2 pairs of L-band arrays facing essentially the same direction.

The array in wingtips tbh looks more suitable for a self protection Cross Eye jamming purpose as it provides the widest point in the airframe. For maximizing error on enemy radar, about 4 wingspans. approaching Incoming radar missiles would have about 56 m of additional miss distance, that would considerably reduce damage probability from explosion or the missile would simply miss.

The author of the picture said this: so I take that the location of these antenna and their roles are his speculation
View attachment 649953

The wingtip antennas are for the L402 Himalayas EW subsystem. This is part of the Sh-121 system along with the 5 arrays of the NO36 Byelka radar.

There is also a Himalayas installation in the rear tailcone according to Piotr Butowski.

 

[Ronny]

Is that one in the Levcon edge also L-band ? If so it's kinda make me think why having 2 pairs of L-band arrays facing essentially the same direction.

The array in wingtips tbh looks more suitable for a self protection Cross Eye jamming purpose as it provides the widest point in the airframe. For maximizing error on enemy radar, about 4 wingspans. approaching Incoming radar missiles would have about 56 m of additional miss distance, that would considerably reduce damage probability from explosion or the missile would simply miss.

The author of the picture said this: so I take that the location of these antenna and their roles are his speculation
View attachment 649953

The wingtip antennas are for the L402 Himalayas EW subsystem. This is part of the Sh-121 system along with the 5 arrays of the NO36 Byelka radar.

There is also a Himalayas installation in the rear tailcone according to Piotr Butowski.

I found several conflicting information about the tail aperture.
Is it EW or secondary radar?

 

[LMFS]

I found several conflicting information about the tail aperture.
Is it EW or secondary radar?

See the post by tequilashooter above, this is the most clear statement I have seen in that regard. They talk clearly about all round and circular view of the space. Until then I assumed the tail was holding just ECM emitter. It is not detailed and I would take it with a pinch of salt but the statement is rather assertive.

 

[QuadroFX]

I found several conflicting information about the tail aperture.
Is it EW or secondary radar?

Still unknown. You will not find reliable data anywhere.

 

[tequilashooter]

I just want to point out the person that was interviewed was not a journo, but the First Deputy General Director of KRET Igor Nasenkov

 

[QuadroFX]

thanks Frazor Felon

 

[Kurfust]

Su-35 has a litle radar on the tail already, am i wrong?

 

[haavarla]

Su-35 has a litle radar on the tail already, am i wrong?

yes you are wrong. There are some ecm sensor or communication antennas(the two side lobes sticking out on the tail).
But no radar, never has been on the Su-35S.
Ofc there are also the landing break shute, flare dispencers and possible an APU at the back spine too.

 

[TSARb]

Перспективы Новосибирского авиационного завода

В октябрьском номере (№ 7/142) за 2020 год заводской газеты Взлетная полоса Новосибирского авиационного завода имени В.П. Чкалова (НАЗ; входит в состав ПАО Компания Сухой в составе ПАО Объединенная авиастроительная корпорация - ОАК) опубликовано интервью…

bmpd.livejournal.com

NAZ workload for the upcoming decade- including PTB-2000, PTB-3400 external tanks, as well as VTB-M and VTB-B internal tanks for Su-57's weapons bays.

PTB-3400 weights ~3 metric tons. Just like "Kinzhal" does.

 

[Kurfust]

Su-35 has a litle radar on the tail already, am i wrong?

yes you are wrong. There are some ecm sensor or communication antennas(the two side lobes sticking out on the tail).
But no radar, never has been on the Su-35S.
Ofc there are also the landing break shute, flare dispencers and possible an APU at the back spine too.

Sorry, i wanted tell, Su-34. I think i read time ago it has a litle radar inside tail.

 

[flanker]

Su-35 has a litle radar on the tail already, am i wrong?

yes you are wrong. There are some ecm sensor or communication antennas(the two side lobes sticking out on the tail).
But no radar, never has been on the Su-35S.
Ofc there are also the landing break shute, flare dispencers and possible an APU at the back spine too.

Sorry, i wanted tell, Su-34. I think i read time ago it has a litle radar inside tail.

This is an old and idiotic meme/rumor. It doesnt have a rear facing radar (and never did) and neither does it have a "toilet". Su-34's stinger has chute, APU and RWR in that order. Maybe a fueltank too between chute and APU but not 100% sure.

 

[sferrin]

... or the colour is precisely because of the coating. The unpainted RAM on some of the prototypes had this weird greenish cyan colour (a bit like my av in fact ):

The green is primer.

 

[TMA1]

I'd assume that the ruskies thought of what to put inside the intake for the APU and did not leave it with just plain primer. there is at times an unhealthy kind of assumption that ruskies dont know what they are doing. I appreciate that the ruskies have a wholly different design ideology to that of western or western style designs. it is a breath of fresh air as these days it seems like every fifth gen or fifth plus gen aircraft in development follows the familiar paths.

 

[FighterJock]

Su-35 has a litle radar on the tail already, am i wrong?

yes you are wrong. There are some ecm sensor or communication antennas(the two side lobes sticking out on the tail).
But no radar, never has been on the Su-35S.
Ofc there are also the landing break shute, flare dispencers and possible an APU at the back spine too.

Sorry, i wanted tell, Su-34. I think i read time ago it has a litle radar inside tail.

This is an old and idiotic meme/rumor. It doesnt have a rear facing radar (and never did) and neither does it have a "toilet". Su-34's stinger has chute, APU and RWR in that order. Maybe a fueltank too between chute and APU but not 100% sure.

So that is the Su-34 toilet rumour busted, I thought it was weird to have a toilet on a fighter-bomber, so that means that the only active Russian combat aircraft with a toilet onboard is the Tu-160 strategic bomber.

 

[GARGEAN]

So that is the Su-34 toilet rumour busted, I thought it was weird to have a toilet on a fighter-bomber, so that means that the only active Russian combat aircraft with a toilet onboard is the Tu-160 strategic bomber.

At least Tu-95 too. As for Su-34 - it at least has hand-held small tank, same as on other T-10. Said to have small biotoiled in the cockpit entrance way as well, but can't find reliable confirmation on that.

 

[Trident]

The green is primer.

Not necessarily. LM switched from traditional yellow zinc-chromate to this green (in both colour and toxicity) formulation at some point during the F-22 production run. There was even a press release IIRC and pictures of early F-22s in primer are yellow - Sukhoi meanwhile continues to use the conventional primer to this day. So on a T-50, the green should signify something else.

 

[sferrin]

The green is primer.

So on a T-50, the green should signify something else.

Why? Their RAM just happens to be the exact same color as new primer used on the F-22 and F-35? Really?

 

[TMA1]

Su-35 has a litle radar on the tail already, am i wrong?

yes you are wrong. There are some ecm sensor or communication antennas(the two side lobes sticking out on the tail).
But no radar, never has been on the Su-35S.
Ofc there are also the landing break shute, flare dispencers and possible an APU at the back spine too.

Sorry, i wanted tell, Su-34. I think i read time ago it has a litle radar inside tail.

This is an old and idiotic meme/rumor. It doesnt have a rear facing radar (and never did) and neither does it have a "toilet". Su-34's stinger has chute, APU and RWR in that order. Maybe a fueltank too between chute and APU but not 100% sure.

So that is the Su-34 toilet rumour busted, I thought it was weird to have a toilet on a fighter-bomber, so that means that the only active Russian combat aircraft with a toilet onboard is the Tu-160 strategic bomber.

well it isnt "busted" exactly. they have two containers with funnels to act as urinals.

 

[Trident]

Why? Their RAM just happens to be the exact same color as new primer used on the F-22 and F-35? Really?

Yes. Why *not*? We know for a fact Sukhoi doesn't use the green primer formulation, and the protoype in the photo I posted is mostly painted. There are actually photos of both airframes (the serial and the RAM testbed) concerned here in primer, and they're yellow.

 

[Acatomic]

Any estimates on the range with extra internal fuel tanks in weapon bays?

 

[haavarla]

Su-35 has a litle radar on the tail already, am i wrong?

yes you are wrong. There are some ecm sensor or communication antennas(the two side lobes sticking out on the tail).
But no radar, never has been on the Su-35S.
Ofc there are also the landing break shute, flare dispencers and possible an APU at the back spine too.

Sorry, i wanted tell, Su-34. I think i read time ago it has a litle radar inside tail.

This is an old and idiotic meme/rumor. It doesnt have a rear facing radar (and never did) and neither does it have a "toilet". Su-34's stinger has chute, APU and RWR in that order. Maybe a fueltank too between chute and APU but not 100% sure.

So that is the Su-34 toilet rumour busted, I thought it was weird to have a toilet on a fighter-bomber, so that means that the only active Russian combat aircraft with a toilet onboard is the Tu-160 strategic bomber.

well it isnt "busted" exactly. they have two containers with funnels to act as urinals.

You'll see it at 29:20 in this Video:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gk_uJgqr-k


The urinals are quite small, but it is hillarious that many people seemed to envision a fully sized field toilet inside that cockpit.. lol

 

[TSARb]

Su-35 has a litle radar on the tail already, am i wrong?

Tail radar "Epaulet" (or sometimes "Epolet"; much later evolved into "Epolet-A") was on the Su-47 and MiG MFI.

 

[stealthflanker]

Su-35 has a litle radar on the tail already, am i wrong?

Tail radar "Epaulet" (or sometimes "Epolet"; much later evolved into "Epolet-A") was on the Su-47 and MiG MFI.

The tail radar is designated as "N012" it's a different animal than the Epaulet family.

Epaulet in other hand works in X-band and it's projected to be mounted in wing roots.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Su-35 has a litle radar on the tail already, am i wrong?

Tail radar "Epaulet" (or sometimes "Epolet"; much later evolved into "Epolet-A") was on the Su-47 and MiG MFI.

The tail radar is designated as "N012" it's a different animal than the Epaulet family.

Epaulet in other hand works in X-band and it's projected to be mounted in wing roots.

N012 never made it to being installed anywhere though to my knowledge.

Epaulet was a secondary array to add R-77 capability to existing N019/N001 radars.

 

[FighterJock]

Does the rear radar now mean that the Su-57 will be capable of firing radar guided missiles at targets approaching from the rear? Or is this something that they are still looking into?

 

[GARGEAN]

If radar is there - more than possible. But that's a big if.

 

[TomcatViP]

IMOHO, it would probably be more a directed energy system to fry anything coming from the rear.
The range available for a search radar with such a small antenna might well be in that of any modern passive sensor (while a well tuned HPMW system would still have a secondary descent radar mode to search for threat in reduced visual conditions like clouds or moonless nights).

 

[GARGEAN]

IMOHO, it would probably be more a directed energy system to fry anything coming from the rear.

For that it would either be laser (not the case) or microwave (need bigger aperture and HUGE energy supply).

 

[BLACK_MAMBA]

Does the rear radar now mean that the Su-57 will be capable of firing radar guided missiles at targets approaching from the rear? Or is this something that they are still looking into?

The energy it would take for the missile to turn a full 180° would just waste a very large part of its propellant burn time which can't then be used to generate any useful kinetic energy for the missile - especially on a long range radar guided one... An much more effective shot can be taken by simply turning into an adversary detected using the rear facing radar for an engagement or simply manuvering so to avoid them.

 

[Grey Havoc]

It should be possible (if a perhaps little tricky) to rig the main weapons bays to be able to dispense rear firing missiles as part of its loadout though.

 

[BLACK_MAMBA]

It should be possible (if a perhaps little tricky) to rig the main weapons bays to be able to dispense rear firing missiles as part of its loadout though.

That would reduce the effective internal weapon loadout simply for a very rare form of attack. Plus, it wouldn't be an effective shot as instead of the aircraft's forward speed being added to the missile's its now being subtracted reducing effective range simply because its starting energy is already below optimal.

 

[GARGEAN]

It should be possible (if a perhaps little tricky) to rig the main weapons bays to be able to dispense rear firing missiles as part of its loadout though.

Rear firing missiles doesn't work. They might, but amount of shenanigans it would require denies any benefit over rapidly turning missile fired forward.

 

[haavarla]

I'll go with Gargean here.
Launching(releasing/seperation) missiles rearward while you are in a foreward momentum velocity have a number of nasty side effectes.
Hell its difficult sometimes to release weapons from external/internal adaptors FACING FOREWARD!
No need to invent more difficulties/complexity here.

It would work just fine in Vacume space tho.. pew pew!

 

[tequilashooter]

На Су-57 испытали макеты гиперзвуковых ракет, сообщил источник

Российский истребитель пятого поколения Су-57 выполнил испытательные полеты с функциональными макетами новой гиперзвуковой ракеты, сообщил РИА Новости источник... РИА Новости, 17.02.2021

ria.ru

KTRV and UAC still refuse to comment on certain projects, wonder if maks 2021 they will.

 

[tequilashooter]

Враг и «Гремлин»: новую гиперзвуковую ракету испытают в 2023 году

Благодаря небольшим размерам боеприпаса вооружить им смогут Су-57 и другие самолеты оперативно-тактической авиации

iz.ru

The enemy and the Gremlin: a new hypersonic missile will be tested in 2023

Due to the small size of the ammunition, the Su-57 and other aircraft of operational tactical aviation will be able to arm them.

A hypersonic aircraft missile, codenamed Gremlin, will take off in two years: tests are scheduled for 2023. In some documents, the product is called GZUR - hypersonic guided missile. In terms of its dimensions, the Gremlin will be smaller than the previously adopted Kh-47M2 Dagger. Due to its small size, the GZUR can be used not only from the side of heavy bombers and MiG-31 interceptors. Its carriers can be the long-range supersonic missile carrier Tu-22M, as well as fighters Su-57, Su-30SM and Su-35. In fact, the Russian Air Force will receive super-weapons. Indeed, according to experts, it is almost impossible to repel the strike of such a complex with modern air defense systems.

"Product 70"
At the operational mobilization meeting on February 9 this year, the head of the defense department Sergei Shoigu said that it was high-precision hypersonic complexes of various bases that would be used to strengthen the potential of non-nuclear deterrence of Russia. The day before, he held a meeting at which he announced the decision of the General Staff about additional orders for such weapons.

According to the work schedule (at the disposal of Izvestia), the GZUR should enter state joint tests in 2023. According to the documents, the development work (ROC) "Gremlin" started in November 2018. Then the Ministry of Defense signed a contract for the execution of the order with the Tactical Missile Armament Corporation (KTRV).

In the near future, tests of the propulsion system of the complex will begin. In February, JSC "Turaevskoe Machine-Building Design Bureau" Soyuz "(TMKB" Soyuz ") posted a notice (available to Izvestia) about conducting bench firing tests as part of the Gremlin development work of the newest engine for hypersonic missiles, which received the designation" product 70 ".

Also in February, there were reports of tests on the fifth generation fighter Su-57 of functional mass and size models of an unnamed GZUR. The size of the missile allows it to be placed in the inner compartment of the Russian "stealth fighter". Earlier it was reported about plans to use similar ammunition on long-range Tu-22M3 bombers, as well as operational-tactical aircraft.

“Apparently, it was the Gremlin mock-up that was tested on the Su-57,” military expert Dmitry Kornev told Izvestia. - It has long been known about such a development at KTRV, but almost no details about the characteristics and purpose have appeared before. Its feature is its small size, which makes it possible to use these missiles from conventional fighters and non-strategic bombers.

The GZUR was already tested in May 2020, so different kind? Hopefully we will receive more news on the Gremlin missile, wonder if a thread of the missile is worth creating as a new missile project.

 

[stealthflanker]

It would be challenging to find space in that small form factor. Being able to fit inside weapon bay would mean the missile would be constrained to about 4.5 m in length and some 40 cm in diameter. In such geometry tho.. the launch weight could be about 800 Kg, range could be about 450 km. Assuming ISP of 1200 sec.

 

[Grey Havoc]

It would be challenging to find space in that small form factor. Being able to fit inside weapon bay would mean the missile would be constrained to about 4.5 m in length and some 40 cm in diameter. In such geometry tho.. the launch weight could be about 800 Kg, range could be about 450 km. Assuming ISP of 1200 sec.

You are assuming a conventional warhead though; a tactical atomic warhead could be made quite compact indeed. Or alternatively, it could possibly be fitted with a solid state EMP warhead, though that could be more bulky than a compact atomic device depending on the design.

 

[haavarla]

Obviously we are talking about a Tactical weapon here, if it can fit inside those w-bays. Still i would think it will operate in the lower regime of Hypersonic.

The Kinzhal on Mig-31K is something in between a Tactical and Stand-off Strategical weapon due to its sheer size and range.

 

[tequilashooter]

https://www.russiadefence.net/t820p650-tu-22m3-news information is from dino00, though I don't where he got the source. Unless someone else can help with a similar related kind of source, that would be much appreciated.

About Gzur

From Macks 2013

“I’m not trying to get ahead of ourselves,” says Boris Obnosov, “but we looked at all our developments and came to the conclusion that it is necessary to consolidate all efforts. And not only because it is one of the priority tasks for Russia. Speaking of hypersound, we must bear in mind first of all a long-term flight in the atmosphere with speeds exceeding 4–5 M. We have products that fly today at a significantly higher speed, but this is either ballistic descent or its varieties. And we are talking about a controlled flight in the atmosphere with speeds of 6–7 M, in the future - 10–12 M ”.

There is no end to work,” Obnosov emphasizes. - It all depends on the speed that is set. If we talk about 4-5 M, then the ramjet engine with subsonic combustion (Ramget) for today is fully developed. The corporation mastered it, we, together with NPO Mashinostroenie, Lytkara enterprise Soyuz, are pioneers here.

If you go to higher speeds, it is necessary to achieve normal operation of the supersonic combustion engine (Scramjet)"

So are there like 3 different GZUR projects? the 6 meter, 1500kg and 1,500km range claim GZUR was tested in May 2020 with the tu-22m3. This leaves the Gremlin and the "in the future 10-12 mach design as separate two projects. Also the kinzhal could be the ballistic descent he is referring to in the 1st paragraph, meaning that the in the future design missile is entirely different. So 3 different GZUR designs meaning the two Borisov mentioned in the past and the 3rd one being the Gremlin? Very curious about the Gremlin's altitude height flight profile and its speed later.

EDIT: they are horrible for using the "izdeliye tag numbers" for every military product out there. The 6 meter, 1500km, 1500kg GZUR missile is given the izdeliye 75 even though a google search will tell you its the mig-21. izdeliye 70 gave one user a Tu-160m2 result while for me it gave a Hermes missile result.

The Gremlin missile goes by a different product number than the GZUR that was tested in may 2020 according to what the source is saying.