• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Sukhoi Su-57 / T-50 / PAK FA - flight testing and development Part II

icyplanetnhc

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Aug 16, 2015
Messages
117
Reaction score
26
Website
aiaa.seas.ucla.edu
I'm not sure if it's an optical illusion on my part, but it appears that the composite nacelles on the "second stage" airframes appear to be of slightly larger diameter compared to the initial T-50 prototypes? Piotr Butowski has written that the "circumference of the after lower fuselage" was modified, so perhaps this was what he meant? Furthermore, when I look at pictures of T-50-3 after it received its new nacelles and paint scheme, the nacelles appear to be slightly larger as well. Did this occur to anyone else? I want to make sure that it's not confirmation bias on my part.
 

icyplanetnhc

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Aug 16, 2015
Messages
117
Reaction score
26
Website
aiaa.seas.ucla.edu
Here's an interesting tidbit about the AL-41F1 (izd. 117) from Air International October 2019. Apparently the only major difference between it and the AL-41F1S (izd. 117S) on the Su-35 is the engine control system; the izd. 117 engine control is a part of the aircraft, while the 117S has its own control unit. Thrust is also slightly greater, about 4.9 kN (500 kg) more. This is an interesting contrast to previous reporting that seemed to imply greater differences between the two. Furthermore, the article suggests a weight of 1,600 kg, considerably higher than what is commonly reported.
 
Last edited:

panzerfeist1

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Oct 7, 2019
Messages
207
Reaction score
57
Website
www.quora.com

"A small-sized inboard fuselage hypersonic missile was developed for the Russian fifth-generation fighter Su-57, a prototype of ammunition was created. This was reported on Sunday by TASS sources in the military-industrial complex.

"The enterprises of the Russian military-industrial complex have created a prototype of a small-sized air-to-surface hypersonic missile for intra-fuselable deployment on a Su-57 fighter," said one of the agency’s interlocutors.

Another source confirmed the creation of the prototype and clarified that "the rocket has not yet been tested with the carrier aircraft." The interlocutors did not disclose the characteristics of the latest ammunition.

TASS does not have official confirmation of the information provided by sources.
In December 2018, another source in the defense industry told TASS that, within the framework of the state armament program for 2018-2027, the Su-57 is planned to be equipped with a missile with characteristics similar to hypersonic missiles of the Dagger airline complex, but with an inside fuselage."


Sources where it was confirmed before

X 74 M2 - Russia's New Cruise Missile For 5th Gen Aircraft


23/05/2014 Itar-Tass

A new modified aircraft missile for Russian fifth-generation fighters would be developed by 2016, the director-general of the Tactical Missiles Corporation, Boris Obnosov, said on Friday at the Kadex 2014 exhibition of weapons and military equipment in Astana, Kazakhstan.

"We have established close contact with the Sukhoi design office. A permanent working group is formed. All the protocols of informational cooperation are agreed on. Models are made according to schedule. Everything must be done by 2016," Obnosov said, noting it was a new modified aircraft cruise missile X-74M2.

It was hard work. Intensity of tests was very high. Even the main test centre coped with it with difficulty, he added.
The Tactical Missiles Corporation also planned to develop the first model of a hypersonic missile by 2020, the corporation's director-general said.

Russia had completed working out a programme to develop hypersonic missile technologies. The Defense Ministry and the Ministry of Industry and Trade had already approved the programme, Obnosov said.

Twelve working groups were formed with the participation of dozens of institutes and companies. The programme was already worked out and approved. The main thing was to implement it, he said.

Key areas were determined. There was understanding in the Defence Ministry, he added.
"If we are behind others it will be hard to catch up with them later. Purposeful, systematic and everyday work is needed," the director-general noted, referring to other countries' developments in the field.

"If somebody thinks that tomorrow we will pull a hypersonic missile from a pocket, the one is mistaken, since the process to create it requires serious scientific and technical developments, serious tests, personnel training and many other things," Obnosov said.

and https://www.rt.com/russia/445733-su-57-kinzhal-variant/
 
Last edited:

panzerfeist1

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Oct 7, 2019
Messages
207
Reaction score
57
Website
www.quora.com
I have been told not to post Quora links on this forum(not putting a gun to user's heads here to click or not to click those links) So instead I will copy someone's idea from there to not get in trouble here for using a link and this regards to the downsizing of the kinzhal for an su-57.

"Now the Kinzhal is likely based off of the Iskander (mass of 3800kg) which has a diameter of 920mm. Based on the fact that the cockpit on the MiG 31 fits between the two engines and 900mm gives a reasonable amount of room for a pilot I'd say the Kinzhal is of similar diameter. Length wise from the image above if we measure the distance the missile takes up on our screen, draw a line of equal length, and copy and paste said line to fill the length of the aircraft, I found the missile’s length to be able to fit along the length of the aircraft 2.83 times meaning it is 0.35 times the length of the MiG 35; that works out to 7.98m.

The volume of a cylinder (which matches the profile of most of the missile’s length) is given byπ∗r2xhπ∗r2xh where r is the radius and h is the length. Yes the missile’s have a cone-like front section, but this rough calculation will give a value exceeding that of the missile and thus you will see a very generous amount, important to note if the range turns out to be short anyway.

Using the aforementioned equation the volume of the Kinzhal is 5.30∗106cm35.30∗106cm3. Since the weapon bays appear to be a rectangular prism we use v=l∗w∗hv=l∗w∗h

where v is volume, l is length, w is width, and h is height. That gives us a weapon bay volume of 2.48∗106cm32.48∗106cm3.

That means the volume of the Kinzhal must be reduced by a factor of 0.46.

The downscaled Kinzhal will have 0.19 the area for its rocket nozzle meaning the rate at which propellent is ejector is also cut by 0.19 (oversimplification again). That means that thrust goes down by a factor of 0.19 while mass decreases by only 0.46. The original Kinzhal would then have 2.4x the thrust to weight ratio of the newer missile. As drag is proportional to the cross sectional area the newer missile has 0.46x the drag of the original. That means the overall acceleration is 0.28 that of the original.

The optimum launch angle is 45 degrees (being generous again as the missile will probably not be launched at exactly 45, in fact it may be fired level with the ground and has to point itself upwards). They say that the kinzhal has a range of 2000km launched from the MiG 31 and 3000km launched from the TU 22; I fail to see how a simple change in launch platform increase the range by 50% so I’m just going to take the average of those two, 2500km. We will be even more generous and not take into account atmospheric drag. to calculate the total energy output of the missile. Using dx=(v2sin2a)/gdx=(v2sin2a)/g where dxdx is horizontal distance covered, v is velocity, a is angle, and g is the gravitational acceleration of 9.81 meters per second squared, we isolate for v to find the initial velocity. That gives us an initial velocity of 5000m/s (way more than the actual figure reported to around 3430m/s because of our generosity with these figures). Using Ek=0.5mv2Ek=0.5mv2 we get 47.5 GJ of energy. Since volume is proportional to mass the scaled down kinzhal will have 0.46x the mass and as long as it uses the same fuel it will have 0.46x the energy, 21.9 GJ. Converting this back into initial velocity gets us the same 5000m/s. Considering only 0.28x this value goes towards increasing the missile’s mechanical energy then the missile also has 0.28x the range.

Final verdict, the missile has a range of 690km give or take.

This was a seriously rough estimation so give or take a couple hundred kilometers."


It feels very interesting that not too long ago there was a source found at this forum at another thread that I have posted in that had suggested copper nano-particles have a burn rate and speed increase of 500% for solid fuel rockets and assuming that they are talking about a smaller scaled solid fuel rocket instead of a scramjet design. Than what was considered as a thrust reduction of .19 (according to the user that made this answer link) will nearly go back to the original speed with copper additives. But of course this still means that it will be 690kms rather if it covers that distance faster with copper additives or slower without them. It seems also too much of a coincidence to also hear about a story about 2 days ago of bringing up the idea of fitting kinzhals inside su-57s.
 

flateric

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
8,883
Reaction score
447
and if they choose warp drive, it can be extended even further
 

panzerfeist1

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Oct 7, 2019
Messages
207
Reaction score
57
Website
www.quora.com
if they choose scramjet, range of the mini-kinzhal can be extended
The brahmos-NG was reduced to 5 meters, speed increased to mach 3.5 with same range claims as the previous ramjet model. Onyx variant was also upgraded to hypersonic speeds so it is possible if they keep the best stuff for themselves. I am starting to feel a little intimidated posting any news articles about their missiles on this forum without seeing a seething comment passing through, worst yet those with moderation privileges you expect neutrality but don't find any. Screenshoting this for future references, but not damaging site reputation
 
Last edited:

flateric

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
8,883
Reaction score
447
I am starting to feel a little intimidated posting any news articles about their missiles on this forum without seeing a seething comment passing through, worst yet those with moderation privileges you expect neutrality but don't find any. Screenshoting this for future references, but not damaging site reputation
Now read the original news in Russian and note that dumb journo took K-74M2 SRAAM as 'Kh-74M2" and it as 'cruise missile' and you will understand the reaction.
Hint: Obnosov talks of two TOTALLY different projects in interview.
More. How old you should be talking about 'making downsized version of Kinzhal and adding scramjet to it'? Sounds as practical as mixing apples with oranges.
 

panzerfeist1

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Oct 7, 2019
Messages
207
Reaction score
57
Website
www.quora.com
I want to make sure we are on the same page here.

Now read the original news in Russian and note that dumb journo took K-74M2 SRAAM as 'Kh-74M2" and it as 'cruise missile' and you will understand the reaction.
Hint: Obnosov talks of two TOTALLY different projects in interview.
I referenced that source in comparison to how they improved the speeds of their missiles by maintaining small sizes, as you can see I made references of the speed increases of onyx and zircon missiles in the past.

More. How old you should be talking about 'making downsized version of Kinzhal and adding scramjet to it'? Sounds as practical as mixing apples with oranges.
Please point out where I am saying that a kinzhal is being downsized for scramjet? I have referenced that they have downsized air-breathable missiles which leaves me undecided if it is scramjet or aeroballistic, because the aero-ballistic missile with maneuvering capabilities can be downsized as well with the addition of copper additives bring the thrust back up.

I am sorry if it sounds like you are offended, because I also hope the admin here did not feel offended when I have found another 100km missile comparison source carried by another kamov project even though it was an unbuilt project. I do not feel like bumping heads with those that have moderation power in this forum.
 
Last edited:

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
12,649
Reaction score
735
It looks cool, but aside from that. . . .why?
 

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
1,290
Reaction score
213
The missile has quite large fins (looks to be a standard R73) that seems to me larger than the side bays can allegedly contain.
 

Josh_TN

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
92
Reaction score
28
I've been quite out of the loop on the Su-57 for a while - how many working copies are there? Last I checked there about a dozen pre-production-ish aircraft, though I think official the type is considered a production aircraft now?
 

GARGEAN

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
May 7, 2018
Messages
308
Reaction score
73
I've been quite out of the loop on the Su-57 for a while - how many working copies are there? Last I checked there about a dozen pre-production-ish aircraft, though I think official the type is considered a production aircraft now?
Same dozen pre-poduction (ten to be exact). First serial crashed during flight testing 3 days before it was supposed to be handed to VKS. So for now waiting for further airframes (there were supposed to be very few of them in first two years since 2019 contract, 1-2 per year, with ramping up production after).
 

Deino

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
2,605
Reaction score
252
I've been quite out of the loop on the Su-57 for a while - how many working copies are there? Last I checked there about a dozen pre-production-ish aircraft, though I think official the type is considered a production aircraft now?
Same dozen pre-poduction (ten to be exact). First serial crashed during flight testing 3 days before it was supposed to be handed to VKS. So for now waiting for further airframes (there were supposed to be very few of them in first two years since 2019 contract, 1-2 per year, with ramping up production after).

Indeed, there are only 10 and I would call them more as prototypes than pre-production. Anyway, not counting static and structural airframes there are 051, 052, 053, 054, 055R, 056, 058, 059, 510 and 511 = 10.

T-50 1st (en).jpg


T-50 2nd (en).jpg
 

FighterJock

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Messages
1,184
Reaction score
97
Wonder if there will be anymore orders placed for the Su-57 after the initial production order is completed, just because it will be a waste of a good fighter not to place more.
 

Deino

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
2,605
Reaction score
252
Wonder if there will be anymore orders placed for the Su-57 after the initial production order is completed, just because it will be a waste of a good fighter not to place more.

Indeed ... but honestly, does a production rate of 1-2 per year makes sense? At least operationally?
 

icyplanetnhc

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Aug 16, 2015
Messages
117
Reaction score
26
Website
aiaa.seas.ucla.edu
Officially, the Su-57 is "ready" for mass production, but has an actual production line been set up?

Furthermore, Piotr Butowski has a rather interesting take on the Su-57's mission systems in his Air International October 2019 article. He pointed to a Kommersant newspaper article that used the phrase "a modification of the internal layout of the Su-57 and unification of the technical solutions" and suggested that this may mean the Su-57's mission systems were downgraded to use the Su-35's for production and thus enabling the otherwise inexplicably low flyaway cost. Furthermore, couple this with notion that the Su-57's AL-41F1 is largely the same as the Su-35's AL-41F1S aside from the engine control system; it would then appear that the production batches of Su-57 ordered so far may not offer a huge advantage over the Su-35, aside from some low observability. Interestingly, I recall Deputy Minister of Defense Yuri Borisov stating that the Su-35 is not inferior to the "first stage" Su-57.

I don't want to sound overly pessimistic but the pace of the program seems quite sluggish, and I'm not sure if the Su-57 will even exceed the F-22 in numbers before the latter's successor NGAD starts flying.
 
Last edited:

helmutkohl

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
40
Reaction score
17
what I am surprised is that it seems they are all using standard paint.
im surprised they are not going with the low viz ones like the f-35 or j-20
 

helmutkohl

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
40
Reaction score
17
. Interestingly, I recall Deputy Minister of Defense Yuri Borisov stating that the Su-35 is not inferior to the "first stage" Su-57.

I don't want to sound overly pessimistic but the pace of the program seems quite sluggish, and I'm not sure if the Su-57 will even exceed the F-22 in numbers before the latter's successor NGAD starts flying.
sounds like it would be comparable to the 1st gen KFX then.
a 5th gen fighter, whose first stage is missing a few 5th gen bits. a work in progress
 

GARGEAN

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
May 7, 2018
Messages
308
Reaction score
73
Wonder if there will be anymore orders placed for the Su-57 after the initial production order is completed, just because it will be a waste of a good fighter not to place more.

Indeed ... but honestly, does a production rate of 1-2 per year makes sense? At least operationally?
There definitely will be more orders (why not?). And 1-2 per year is only initial couple of years, otherwise reaching 76 airframes in 2027 as currently planned isn't possible.
 

stealthflanker

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
353
Reaction score
55
Officially, the Su-57 is "ready" for mass production, but has an actual production line been set up?

Furthermore, Piotr Butowski has a rather interesting take on the Su-57's mission systems in his Air International October 2019 article. He pointed to a Kommersant newspaper article that used the phrase "a modification of the internal layout of the Su-57 and unification of the technical solutions" and suggested that this may mean the Su-57's mission systems were downgraded to use the Su-35's for production
This could be problematic as Su-35's systems e.g optics are made by different company to Su-35. I doubt UOMZ would give up anything to NIIPP. So i doubt that. They may use some common items maybe LCD screen for their MFD's but beyond that it doesnt seem to be that way.
 

starviking

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2006
Messages
983
Reaction score
53
Wonder if there will be anymore orders placed for the Su-57 after the initial production order is completed, just because it will be a waste of a good fighter not to place more.

Indeed ... but honestly, does a production rate of 1-2 per year makes sense? At least operationally?
Problematical operationally, sensible from a maintaining technical capabilities perspective. The Ilyushin-96 has been built at a similar low rate for decades, and the Shin Maywa Amphibians are also produced at low rate to keep tech skills alive.
 

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
1,290
Reaction score
213
yes it is. But remind that the Su-27 took a long time also to surface as a formidable weapon.

Regarding the displayed missile launch, do I am the only one to think that what we see (missile with fins) doesn't seems to be able to fit inside the alleged side missiles bay?
 

starviking

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2006
Messages
983
Reaction score
53
yes it is. But remind that the Su-27 took a long time also to surface as a formidable weapon.

Regarding the displayed missile launch, do I am the only one to think that what we see (missile with fins) doesn't seems to be able to fit inside the alleged side missiles bay?
Do we have any good stats/plans for the side bays? Even if they are too small, could the fins be flip-out or fold-out?
 

Josh_TN

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
92
Reaction score
28
Its a little suspicious that the angle of the images seems to obscure the missile's deployment. The low production rate implies that the design isn't finalized and will have to go through more steps before mass production. One the one hand, a set back for the system, on the other hand probably a much more cost saving strategy as opposed to the US building F-35s that will never be fully mission capable and at best will be relegated to training aircraft.

That said, with the plummeting price of oil I have to wonder if this program's development won't continue to be drawn out and mass production shelved until more finances are available. Russia has a huge number of strategic programs that likely are higher priorities.
 

FighterJock

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Messages
1,184
Reaction score
97
yes it is. But remind that the Su-27 took a long time also to surface as a formidable weapon.

Regarding the displayed missile launch, do I am the only one to think that what we see (missile with fins) doesn't seems to be able to fit inside the alleged side missiles bay?
Do we have any good stats/plans for the side bays? Even if they are too small, could the fins be flip-out or fold-out?
That is one thing that I would just love to see, an actual photo of the Su-57s side-bays with the R-74 missile in the bay.
 

GARGEAN

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
May 7, 2018
Messages
308
Reaction score
73
Its a little suspicious that the angle of the images seems to obscure the missile's deployment. The low production rate implies that the design isn't finalized and will have to go through more steps before mass production. One the one hand, a set back for the system, on the other hand probably a much more cost saving strategy as opposed to the US building F-35s that will never be fully mission capable and at best will be relegated to training aircraft.

That said, with the plummeting price of oil I have to wonder if this program's development won't continue to be drawn out and mass production shelved until more finances are available. Russia has a huge number of strategic programs that likely are higher priorities.
Contact is already finalised and production started (tho with embarrassing loss of first serial airframe). No "design finalising" (aside from standart mid-producing tweaks and already planned reengining with Izd.30) or production shelving is really possible at this point until something REALLY drastic happens. Oil price drop is by far not drastic enough.
 

Josh_TN

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
92
Reaction score
28
I personally don't consider 1-2 airframes mass production. I'm not even sure that counts as production; to me that is still pre-production. So far it hasn't kept up with operational losses. Clearly it is unfair to treat that statistic that way, but my point is the production run is so slow that a single mishap changes the available aircraft by doubt digits at current production rates.
 

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
1,290
Reaction score
213
yes it is. But remind that the Su-27 took a long time also to surface as a formidable weapon.

Regarding the displayed missile launch, do I am the only one to think that what we see (missile with fins) doesn't seems to be able to fit inside the alleged side missiles bay?
Do we have any good stats/plans for the side bays? Even if they are too small, could the fins be flip-out or fold-out?
There is a patent with according front and side sketched view but I haven't it saved here. Maybe someone have it saved somewhere more accessible that I can do?

@FighterJock : the R-73 has a stated span of 0.51m. That seems like a lot to fit in those alleged bay. The missile displayed here looks to be a regular R-73.

Su-57 Missile launch Side Bay.jpg
 
Last edited:

Deino

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
2,605
Reaction score
252
For the third time: contract is for 76 airframes with finish date being 2027. Where is "1-2 airframes"?

But given the past experience and reaching certain milestones - esp. self-procliamed ones - I won't hold my breath ... I would not even be surprised if the RuAF will receive at best only a handfull.
 

Saber

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Dec 6, 2017
Messages
3
Reaction score
0
But given the past experience and reaching certain milestones - esp. self-procliamed ones - I won't hold my breath ... I would not even be surprised if the RuAF will receive at best only a handfull.
Such as?

Eternal circus continues, first it was only 12 that will ever be ordered! Okay, maybe they ordered 76, but won't actually happen!

I am sure RuMOD just signed the order for funsies and don't actually expect 76 planes, for the lols obviously in your mind.

I remember when you said the Chinese would NEVER EVER order the Su-35S, funny how that happened.
 
Top