Sukhoi PAK FA news and speculation (T-50, I-21) Part I [2006-2008]

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flateric said:
With the *new* engines hopefully arriving in prototype form in 2015, we hopefully will have see IOC Su-something ca.2020-2022.

This is OPTIMISTIC forecast.

I hope I will live long enough to see the event. Need to check my blood pressure, though.
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Eat lots of fiber. Moderate exercise. Wear your seatbelt :)

YF-22 construction began in January 1990 and the first operational flight took place in January 2003 . . . 13 years of development in between. If we can believe reports that a PAK FA prototype is under construction this year, and if Sukhoi keeps the same pace as Lockheed, that takes us into the early 2020s for operational status. God knows what will be happening in the world by then.

On the other hand, maybe Sukhoi can move a little faster. What takes 13 years?
 
The new engine which is projected for 2015 is a new technology engine, and might introduce the famous variable bypass technology, remember as was stated before , the PAKFA will be smaller than the F-22 (which have 20,000 kg of weigth), sukhoi is not so desperated for a new engine with even more thrust than the new Al-31, which seems already has reached the 1/10 T/W rate
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Given the size of the PAK-FA, even if it does eventually develop the ability to supercruise, I wonder how useful it will be, since the optimum fuel fraction for supercruise is around .25 at a minimum. That's going to be very tough to achieve in a smaller airframe.
 
We will see Sundog, 14 TM's class is a rather balanced size, not very heavy, not very light, if you do it very heavy, you are more pressed to design it with more fuel, and with that adding even more weight for the fuel tanks (and structural reinforcement), the pipes, and maybe secundary pumps, etc...

I think with such weight the airframe can handle very well a 0.3 fuel fraction, it depends on the design and which solution is selected, which configuration, etc, if i remember well, the F-16A fuel fraction was better than the F-15A one, so lighter doesn't mean short-legged, or bigger long legged, between mig-29 and su-27 class, is in my opinion is the best balanced size, and is interesting that in fact they did chose that size

even if it does eventually develop the ability to supercruise,

I can not see a clear reason why the "If", the weight is more/less known, the engine power is known, the T/W should be equal or better than the F-22 one, at least from the given data, that aircraft will do supercruiser
 
the PAKFA will be smaller than the F-22 (which have 20,000 kg of weigth
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Well, since the weight of the new aircraft will be between the su-27 and the mig-29 (maybe arround 14,000 kg)
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I have yet to see a single proof suggesting that PAKFA will be anything but larger than then F-22 in the same way that SU-27 was larger than F-15.

PAK-FA is essentially a two engine JSF. The later is already at 14.5 Tons of empty weight (A model). Add in the extra engine and support structure, bigger fuel tanks, larger weapon bays and so on.

Lets not forget weight growth. F-22 was supposed to be 14 tons and F-35 was supposed to be 10. Since then they have both added more than 4 tons.

There is just no way PAK-FA can have a higher trust to weight ration than F-22 if it going to be great high end strike aircraft. Same for the super-cruise.

P.S. last time I checked F-22 engines are unofficially rated at 39,000lb. That is from 10 years ago. How much will they be rated 10 years from now, when PAK-FA is sort if flying maybe?
 
The Flanker was stated from the begining to be larger than the F-15, you cannot use that example, the designers were clear, from the start they got an aircraft larger than the F-15

The same is with this one, from the start they stated an aircraft smaller than the F-22

Im not saying the Pakfa will be smaller, neither you, is not my idea, Sukhoi has said that, saying it will be larger than the F-22 are unbased speculations (like the radar christmas tree)

There are configurations, there are good and bad ideas, good and bad configurations, an airplane with a mass of 20 tons, in which not even the weight of the RAM materials is significative and with a heavely composed structure, with just 8 tons of internal fuel, mmm...something is wrong there, IMO.

Let's see how the russians do it, what we know is that they think can have a significantly smaller aircraft with a similar performance, i don't see any reason why they would lying, specially when they have accepted wont use some popular "cool" features like the 22's TVC style, and seriously i think they can reach that goal, with the right design

About the engines, well 10 years in the future new engines will be aviable for the PAKFA, so i can not se where is the point
 
Gavin said:
flateric said:
With the *new* engines hopefully arriving in prototype form in 2015, we hopefully will have see IOC Su-something ca.2020-2022.

This is OPTIMISTIC forecast.

I hope I will live long enough to see the event. Need to check my blood pressure, though.
Click to expand...

Eat lots of fiber. Moderate exercise. Wear your seatbelt :)

YF-22 construction began in January 1990 and the first operational flight took place in January 2003 . . . 13 years of development in between. If we can believe reports that a PAK FA prototype is under construction this year, and if Sukhoi keeps the same pace as Lockheed, that takes us into the early 2020s for operational status. God knows what will be happening in the world by then.

On the other hand, maybe Sukhoi can move a little faster. What takes 13 years?
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Just bouncing in her for a moment, I'm preferring to "lurk" on this discussion.

However, we 've got to keep something in mind regarding development times. In the case of the F-22, one of the big reasons it took so long to mature is an unwillingness on the part of the Government to fund the R&D at a rate that would permit it to go faster (which would also ultimately be cheaper). Also, there seemed to be a very real desire in the '90s to structure the R&D program so that the really big bills, including production, would be a problem for the next Administration. Also, the emphasis of our testing seems to have devolved from maximizing the development and producing a system to minimizing risk. these all tend to "stretch" out R&D times. In the case of Sukhoi and MiG advanced derivatives of the Flanker and Fulcrum, it appears it's basically just a lack of money. If their Government wants to develop this aircraft faster and was willing to come up with the funds, I'll wager it could be produced a lot faster.

Lest we forget, the West used to do it quicker not so long ago. For example, the F-14. Contract award in 1969, first flight in 1970, IOC in 1974-75, first overseas deployment 1975. It can be done if the desire is strong enough
 
As someone may know, it was recently stated from NIIP (the radar developer) that PAK-FA will have three types of radars - in centimetric, decimetric and millimetric waves. Former two types will be AESAs and some elements were demonstrated on MAKS2007.
 
The picture that paralay presented is from a NIIP article from 2002. Here it is (in russian):
http://www.niip.ru/main.php?page=library_sky4

There were definitely L-band AESAs presented on MAKS 2007 (or at least the board next to mock-up says that) and the idea is to put them into the leading edges of the wings. This looks plausible, but we still don't know whether this have been a purposefull misinformation or a reality.
 
This isn't strictly "radar", its antennas for all the different radio emissions in different bands like radio, IFF etc.
 
Russian fifth-generation fighter to perform maiden flight in 2009 - deputy minister

ST. PETERSBURG. Sept 24 (Interfax-AVN) - A Russian fifth-generation fighter will fly its maiden flight in 2009, Russian Deputy Industry and Trade Minister Yury Borisov told journalists at a conference in St. Petersburg on Tuesday.

The plane prototype already exists, and is based in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, Borisov said.

The aircraft will be equipped with Russian-made avionics, he said.

The principal contractor for building the fifth-generation fighter is the Sukhoi aircraft holding company. Most experts are of the view that the characteristics of the basic version of the Russian fifth-generation fighter will be competitive with those of its U.S. analogs.

The projected aircraft will be multifunctional (that is, capable of destroying both aerial and ground targets in any weather and at any time of day), super-maneuverable (capable of flying at low airspeeds and with a high angle of attack), hard to detect in the optical, infrared, and radar waves, and capable of using 300-400-meter-long runways to take off and land.

The aircraft will also be able to perform long flights at supersonic speeds with multiple aerial refueling, will have qualitatively new electronic equipment, and its flight processes will be automated as much as possible.
 
India, Russia to develop 2 versions of 5th-generation fighter

NEW DELHI, September 29 (RIA Novosti) - Russia and India will jointly develop two versions of a new fifth-generation fighter, the head of an Indian defense company said on Monday.

A Russian-Indian advanced multirole fighter is being developed by Sukhoi, which is part of Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), along with India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), under an intergovernmental agreement signed in October 2007.

"The aircraft will have different wings, electronics and radars," HAL Chairman Ashok K. Baweja said after a meeting of the Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission on military technical cooperation in New Delhi.

He also said India will develop a two-seat version to meet the requirements of the Indian air superiority doctrine, while Russia will develop a single-seat fighter.

Russia's Sukhoi aircraft maker earlier said it had started the construction of a prototype of the fifth-generation fighter, which will feature high maneuverability and stealth to ensure air superiority and precision in destroying ground and sea targets.

The Russian version will be built at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aircraft-manufacturing plant in Russia's Far East.

Flight tests of the fifth-generation fighter will begin as early as 2009, and mass production of the aircraft may start by 2015, Sukhoi said.

Russia's military cooperation with India goes back nearly half a century, and the country accounts for about 40% of Russian arms exports.

Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission sessions are held annually and alternate between New Delhi and Moscow. The previous meeting took place in the Russian capital in October 2007.
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http://en.rian.ru/world/20080929/117251004.html

What does this mean ?? ??? ... a wing with a different geometry - I don't think so - or a wing without these radar-antennas ?

Deino
 
http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/in...nid=4&Itemid=1

Baweja said that the first prototype of the FGFA was to fly next year with the ALF-31 FP engine. He said he would want an engine that had 15 to 20 per cent more growth than this engine in the final aircraft configuration. The FGFA is to enter squadron service by 2015 and will replace at least three classes of aircraft in the IAF.


Is there any possibility that the both indian and Russian versions of PAK-FA make their first flight in 2009 ?
 
For your money, we can promise everything that you want to hear;)
 
Spring said:
Let's see how the russians do it, what we know is that they think can have a significantly smaller aircraft with a similar performance, i don't see any reason why they would lying, specially when they have accepted wont use some popular "cool" features like the 22's TVC style, and seriously i think they can reach that goal, with the right design
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Consider:
- The design will have a very high clean power/weight ratio (2.5/1?).
- It will have an usually short take off run, indicating high-lift/STOL capabilities (300-400m :eek: ).
- If the NPO Saturn leak is accurate it will have a very clean design, relying on advanced (FBW and possibly TV) instead of large aerodynamic control surfaces and a high-volume/low surface area design.

I see know reason why such an aeroplane couldn't have very good performance clean and an unusually high maximum takeoff weight on a normal length runway (and therefore a high payload). So the possibility of an airframe with F-22 style performance also being able to, as an alternative to performance, carry an adequate A-G payload or addition conformal fuel tanks, seam plausible.
 
Avimimus said:
Spring said:
Let's see how the russians do it, what we know is that they think can have a significantly smaller aircraft with a similar performance, i don't see any reason why they would lying, specially when they have accepted wont use some popular "cool" features like the 22's TVC style, and seriously i think they can reach that goal, with the right design
Click to expand...

Consider:
- The design will have a very high clean power/weight ratio (2.5/1?).
- It will have an usually short take off run, indicating high-lift/STOL capabilities (300-400m :eek: ).
- If the NPO Saturn leak is accurate it will have a very clean design, relying on advanced (FBW and possibly TV) instead of large aerodynamic control surfaces and a high-volume/low surface area design.

I see know reason why such an aeroplane couldn't have very good performance clean and an unusually high maximum takeoff weight on a normal length runway (and therefore a high payload). So the possibility of an airframe with F-22 style performance also being able to, as an alternative to performance, carry an adequate A-G payload or addition conformal fuel tanks, seam plausible.
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2.5 to 1? Good luck with that. ;D
 
Anyway,
The Indian version will be in the IAF's Heavy Combat Aircraft category . being a two seater it would be more in line with the MKI.

The two seat thingie is in line with IAF doctrine which also calls for the creation of a dedicated Weapon System Operator cadre.
 
medal64 said:
Ok I understood you.But I don't understand you how a Russian you are! :)
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Look what's going up with Vikramaditya and Il-38SD, not talking of other confuses.
Well, I think we can check up if the situation with performing contract obligations going better next spring - with the first carrier-based Mig-29 delivery.
 
Ok I understand you flateric.I think you mean is, Russian authorities should be more honest about when they are giving timetable about a project to the costumers and the people.
 
Well, they should use their brains first and find a spare calculator before giving any obligations.
 
Avimimus said:
Consider:
- The design will have a very high clean power/weight ratio (2.5/1?).

higher than the F-22 could be..2.5 is going too far

- It will have an usually short take off run, indicating high-lift/STOL capabilities (300-400m :eek: ).

not a great surprise if is clean, similat take off can be done by a clean fullcrum/falcon add TVC's and you get better performance, naval Flankers does not use catapults for take off..

- If the NPO Saturn leak is accurate it will have a very clean design, relying on advanced (FBW and possibly TV) instead of large aerodynamic control surfaces and a high-volume/low surface area design.

If the Saturn "leak" would be true, there should be an scandal about that, nothing happened...was not like the scandal of that nuclear kilo submarine
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Avimimus said:
- If the NPO Saturn leak is accurate it will have a very clean design, relying on advanced (FBW and possibly TV) instead of large aerodynamic control surfaces and a high-volume/low surface area design.
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The so-called Saturn leak appears to be a poor quality artist impression of this design, which shows more realistic proportions for the control surfaces. Whether this really has anything to do with the PAK FA, that remains to be seen. But I can't understand why the "Saturn leak" is still the one people take seriously.
 

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Well, it's the size of control surfaces that makes me think that Saturn leak has something behind it.
If it was another Chinese fanart, artist would never draw such uncommon small ones.
In fact, this RCS CGI model in common has no difference from Saturn leak pictures - daemon is in details and proportions.

Once more, be patient. Not so much time left...two years maximum=)
 
I agree.

Spring said:
Avimimus said:
Consider:
- The design will have a very high clean power/weight ratio (2.5/1?).
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higher than the F-22 could be..2.5 is going too far
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:eek: ??? ::) :p Yes, that was a bit of a mental typo on my part. It is supposed to be somewhat higher than the F-22 though (which would bring it relatively close to 1:1 clean).

Gavin said:
The so-called Saturn leak appears to be a poor quality artist impression of this design, which shows more realistic proportions for the control surfaces. Whether this really has anything to do with the PAK FA, that remains to be seen. But I can't understand why the "Saturn leak" is still the one people take seriously.
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I think you and I have quite a bit of a different interpretation of the Saturn image. While there are certainly similarities with the above image I perceive it as potentially being a blended-wing design. A design with more in spirit with Patent 342,717 (http://www.dreamlandresort.com/black_projects/patent.htm) than with the F-22. In other words, basically, a blended delta flying wing with reduced control surfaces that would mainly be used should TVC fail.

The basic fact is that such as design could provide the best lift/drag ratio, while having a high internal volume (allowing either strike or interceptor roles) and reasonable dash speeds. Furthermore, it has now become feasible to tailor FBW computers and aerodynamic simulations in order to make smaller control surfaces feasible. After all, the Mikoyan Pak-Fa proposal was reportedly a tailless design (and was turned down due to the high development risks) - perhaps it wasn't really turned down in the end.

Contrary to popular belief, with the exceptions of the Tu-4, the R-2/R-3 missiles and a couple of components, the Eastern European countries haven't just not copied the west, they have also developed designs in very different directions and with very different philosophies. I see no reason why this would change now. As a matter of pride alone the design might differ considerably.
 
Avimimus said:
In other words, basically, a blended delta flying wing with reduced control surfaces that would mainly be used should TVC fail.

The basic fact is that such as design could provide the best lift/drag ratio, while having a high internal volume (allowing either strike or interceptor roles) and reasonable dash speeds. Furthermore, it has now become feasible to tailor FBW computers and aerodynamic simulations in order to make smaller control surfaces feasible. After all, the Mikoyan Pak-Fa proposal was reportedly a tailless design (and was turned down due to the high development risks) - perhaps it wasn't really turned down in the end.
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I think you're expecting too much innovation from the PAK FA. Not because Russia isn't capable of the innovation, but because it simply isn't necessary. As you say, the MiG proposal was supposedly turned down because of the high development risk . . . it would take too much money and too much time to get the plane in the air. Russia is in a hurry to get the PAK FA, and there's no reason to re-invent the wheel. Combine the performance and maneuverability of recent Flankers with a low-observable planform, and Russia will have a fifth-generation fighter that can compete with the F-22 and F-35 in the air and, more importantly, on the global market.
 
Avimimus said:
The basic fact is that such as design could provide the best lift/drag ratio, while having a high internal volume (allowing either strike or interceptor roles) and reasonable dash speeds. Furthermore, it has now become feasible to tailor FBW computers and aerodynamic simulations in order to make smaller control surfaces feasible. After all, the Mikoyan Pak-Fa proposal was reportedly a tailless design (and was turned down due to the high development risks) - perhaps it wasn't really turned down in the end.
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wonder who did report the tailess design for the mig pak fa, any link about it?

thanks
 
Do you think,does RUAF use two seat version of the PAK-FA in the future, which will be developed for the IAF?
 
ıs there any new news about the pak-fa prototypes situation? at which stage of the pak-fa aircraft production?and do you think will this economic crises effect the pak-fa production?
 
Nothing new I've seen last month(es). Surely crisis will affect EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE ...sic...today Sukhoi Civil Jets and NPO Saturn asked government for additional financing of SuperJet - they want 4 bln. roubles more as 'they didn't put expences for some program components, such as sertification center' in previous finance plans'. Huh-huh...
 
a lot of those sukhoi airliners are going to be built in India at Nagpur

;D
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/News_By_Industry/Transportation/Sukhoi_civilian_aircraft_unit_to_come_up_in_Nagpur/rssarticleshow/3531861.cms

PAK FA have no fear India is here .
 
Russian military spending to hit $50 bln in 2009
GORKI (Moscow Region), October 16 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's military spending will reach 1.3 trillion rubles ($50 billion) in 2009, Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov said on Thursday.

Do you think is it a good news for PAK-FA production?Do you think can we see this aircraft in 2009 against the economic crises?


http://www.en.rian.ru/russia/20081016/117784473.html
 
http://io.ua/wda49f7f835ad4dcf4855d2dad2d73576

China airshow.Saturn video.Do you think is this the real PAK-FA image?
 
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