Sukhoi/HAL PMI/FGFA

Mike Pryce

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Hmm, all those people who said the T-50 was a 'stealthified' Su-27 were wrong. But in this case...!?

If the final FGFA looks like this I'd be surprised. The headline would read 'HAL develops student project by mistake..." :eek:
 

Sundog

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To me, that looks like an intermediate upgrade to their current Flankers, if they didn't want to go for a completely new fighter based off of the T-50.
 

Triton

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India's next-gen stealth fighter may not be what we thought

By
Stephen Trimble

Even amidst the PAK-FAs, J-20s, KF-Xs, F-22s and F-35s, the favourite next generation stealth fighter concept of any worthy aviation journalist has always belonged to India. Why? The Sukhoi/HAL fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) was introduced as the world's only two-seat stealth fighter, which means it will soon become the only free ticket for a backseat ride.

But there appears to have been some misunderstanding. Either the Indian Air Force allowed the two-seat fighter story to spread without a challenge, or they have radically re-thought the FGFA's design and concept of operations in the last several months.

NAK Browne, air chief marshal of the Indian air force, said yesterday in New Delhi that he actually plans to buy 166 single-seat and 48 twin-seat versions of the FGFA, which will be derived from the Sukhoi PAK-FA. Browne's statement means that India has trimmed its projected order from a rough estimate of around 250 to a more precise 214. More importantly, it also means the two-seat fighter will likely be relegated to the training role, with the single-seater tasked for operations.

At least the two-seat variant has still survived, at least for now. We want our back-seat ride at AeroIndia 2021!

Source:
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2011/10/indias-next-gen-stealth-fighte.html
 

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blackkite

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Hi!
http://defenceprojectsindia.wordpress.com/
 

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flateric

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this is an old, non-official (and quite badly made) CGI
this is FGFA WT model

fgfa-india-2013-805.jpg
 

Triton

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"India wants a ride on the T-50"
16 September 2015 Vzglyad
India’s Air Force has sought an opportunity from Russia to check out the fifth generation PAK FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation), also known as the T-50, in flight.

Source:
http://in.rbth.com/economics/defence/2015/09/16/india-wants-a-ride-on-the-t-50_397177

Prior to Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s December visit to Moscow, we would like Russia to allow Indian Air Force test pilots the opportunity to test the fifth generation PAK FA in flight. We are now examining all options for collaborating in this project – from joint production to direct purchase of 60-65 airplanes from Russia. To make a final decision we would like to know its flying and technical characteristics in practice,” a source from the Indian Ministry of Defence (MOD) told the Economic Times, reports TASS.

The source also commented that “India, without a doubt, needs a fifth generation fighter that combines all modern technologies and improvements such as stealth, high maneuverability, speed, and also reserve characteristics “for the future”.

According to the MOD representative, an alternative to the Russian T-50 could be the American F-35, which is also undergoing final tests. “However, India has often ignored hints from the USA regarding the possible delivery of this aircraft”, the representative said.

In 2007 Russia and India concluded an inter-governmental agreement for joint production of the T-50. In December 2010, India earmarked $295 million for the project.

“However, three years ago, India slowed down the project, reducing its original order for 166 single-seater and 48 two-seater fighters to 127 single-seater PAK FAs,” said the military official. However, the total cost of the PAK FA for India is about $25 billion for supply of all 127 aircraft”.

“The agreement on the technical details, costs and supply schedule for the fighters might further delay the signing of a final contract for the joint production of the PAK FA, by which both parties must provide $5.5 billion” he said. “For this reason, India is examining the possibility of purchasing ready-made fighters from Russia in order to receive them more quickly”.

The Indian MOD commented that it had high hopes that the PM’s visit to Moscow would stimulate talks on the PAK FA in the interests of both countries. “Russia will receive a serious financial windfall, and India expects that should a direct purchase be made of fifth generation fighters, then it would be possible to reduce the initial time of 94 months to 36 months, which is critically important for the country’s air force, which is starved of technical aviation”, commented the military expert.

India said on August 12, it might purchase three squadrons of ready Russian fifth generation T-50 fighters, instead of constructing 127 similar aircraft with Russia. India does intend to build its own fifth generation fighter.

First published in Russian by Vzglyad.
 

Flyaway

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Is this just a case of haggling by the IAF?

NEW DELHI – The ambitious $10 billion Indo-Russian program for joint development and production of fifth generation fighter aircraft, or FGFA, faces a new serious hurdle, as the Indian Air Force demands a discontinuation of the project.

Senior IAF leadership recently expressed apprehension to the Ministry of Defence, claiming the proposed FGFA program with Russia does not meet desired requirements like U.S. F-35 fighter type capabilities, disclosed a senior IAF official. That official added, that “IAF is not keen to continue with the program.”

The proposed FGFA program does not meet desired stealth and cross section features compared to a F-35 fighter, the official explained, thus major structural changes are needed that cannot be met in the existing Russian prototypes.

FGFA also does not have modular engine concept, making maintenance and serviceability of the fleet expensive and troublesome. A second service official said the modular engine concept is required for the fleet serviceability and availability of FGFA aircrafts at short notice, since it can be done by the user itself.

Russians have offered non-modular engines for FGFA and its maintenance and other relations can only be handled by the manufacturer.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/10/20/indian-air-force-wants-out-of-fighter-program-with-russia/
 

_Del_

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Russians have offered non-modular engines for FGFA and its maintenance and other relations can only be handled by the manufacturer.
I'd think the early experience with MiG's contractor support for the -29's is probably hurting Sukhoi in that respect.
 

kaiserd

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_Del_ said:
Russians have offered non-modular engines for FGFA and its maintenance and other relations can only be handled by the manufacturer.
I'd think the early experience with MiG's contractor support for the -29's is probably hurting Sukhoi in that respect.

Anyone have more information on India’s experience with Su-30’s and their engines in this regard?
This would probably be more influential on their views on the FGFA.
 

_Del_

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kaiserd said:
_Del_ said:
Russians have offered non-modular engines for FGFA and its maintenance and other relations can only be handled by the manufacturer.
I'd think the early experience with MiG's contractor support for the -29's is probably hurting Sukhoi in that respect.

Anyone have more information on India’s experience with Su-30’s and their engines in this regard?
This would probably be more influential on their views on the FGFA.

Ah, you may have hit it.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/161953/india’s-su_30-fighters-plagued-by-engine-troubles%2C-low-availability.html

I didn't remember hearing about this. I just know MiG had a streak with many unhappy customers abroad regarding their lack of support and spares, including India, and that it impacted MiG in the earlier MRCA phases.
 

flateric

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ROE strikes back http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4672331
 

Foo Fighter

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Translation.

"Rosoboronexport": Russian-Indian fighter of the fifth generation is being created on time
Army and defense industry
October 24, 13:28 UTC + 3
Fighter of the fifth generation (FGFA) is developed on the basis of the Russian Su-57 in accordance with the technical requirements of the Indian side

MOSCOW, October 24. / TASS /. Russia and India are continuing a joint project to create a fifth-generation FGFA (Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft) aircraft. This was reported to the press service of Rosoboronexport on Tuesday.

SPECIAL PROJECT
Fighter T-50: the secrets of the aircraft-"invisible"
TASS tells about the combat and flight potential of the Russian advanced aviation complex of front-line aviation

Earlier, the publication Defense News referring to the report of the Indian Air Force command reported that the aircraft, created on the basis of the Russian fifth-generation fighter aircraft Su-57, does not have sufficient level of stealth. In addition, according to the military, it does not require a modular engine concept, which leads to more expensive maintenance of the fighter. Therefore, they proposed to the authorities of the country to withdraw from the joint Russian-Indian program FGFA.

"Currently, the Russian-Indian intergovernmental agreement is in force, there are obligations under which the joint project to create a fifth-generation aircraft is being implemented by the parties at agreed stages and terms," ​​the company said.

The agreement on the FGFA project was signed in 2007. In early May, a source in the Indian Defense Ministry told the Indian agency PTI that a contract for the development of a detailed project of a new fighter will be signed in the second half of 2017.

see also
The contract for the installation lot Su-57 is planned to be signed in 2018
Sergei Shoigu inspected the latest Su-57 fighter on Kubinka
Shock: Su-57 and other advanced combat aircraft of Russia
Fighter of the fifth generation of the Su-57 will be delivered to the troops from 2018

In the spring, Russian officials said that Russia fully fulfills its obligations under the project and expects the decision of the Indian side.

Fighter of the fifth generation (FGFA) is developed on the basis of the Russian Su-57 in accordance with the technical requirements of the Indian side.

It is assumed that the initial customer of this aircraft will be the Indian Air Force, and in the future it will be supplied to third countries
 

Triton

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"India does not want to cooperate with Russia on 5th generation aircraft"

by Dmitriy Sudakov
24 Oct 2017 at 17:07

Source:
http://www.pravdareport.com/business/companies/24-10-2017/139016-india_fifth_generation-0/

Pravda.Ru turned to military expert of Arsenal of the Fatherland magazine, Alexei Leonkov.

"Why do not think the Indians have made such a statement?"

"They are, to put it mildly, being dishonest. The Indians wanted to be part of the project when the talks were underway. Yet, as a result of the talks, they could not get what they wanted. Therefore, they have decided to discredit what they could not get. If we compare the performance and combat capabilities of the F-35 and the Su-57, the Su-57 leaves the F-35 considerably behind.
 

Triton

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"HAL strongly bats for FGFA project with Russia"
PTI|
Updated: Oct 23, 2017, 09.09 PM IST

Source:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/hal-strongly-bats-for-fgfa-project-with-russia/articleshow/61189233.cms
 

kaiserd

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Triton said:
"India does not want to cooperate with Russia on 5th generation aircraft"

by Dmitriy Sudakov
24 Oct 2017 at 17:07

Source:
http://www.pravdareport.com/business/companies/24-10-2017/139016-india_fifth_generation-0/

Pravda.Ru turned to military expert of Arsenal of the Fatherland magazine, Alexei Leonkov.

"Why do not think the Indians have made such a statement?"

"They are, to put it mildly, being dishonest. The Indians wanted to be part of the project when the talks were underway. Yet, as a result of the talks, they could not get what they wanted. Therefore, they have decided to discredit what they could not get. If we compare the performance and combat capabilities of the F-35 and the Su-57, the Su-57 leaves the F-35 considerably behind.

From that famously reliable and truthful source; Pravda?
 

Hood

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To be honest none of this surprises me.
The Indian AF is moving into the Western (US) camp when it comes to equipment; Chinooks, Apaches, P-8, C-17, possibly Super Hornets. The quality and reliability improvements are probably quite noticeable. There have been few recent Russian purchases that haven't been dogged with issues, the Il-78MKIs and A-50s have had among them.
Also, the Indian industrial side demands large amounts of local workshare, probably HAL wants to get its hands on the FGFA technology to further its own home-grown design ambitions, especially since most recent Indian programes like the Tejas, Sitara and HTT-40 have been long delayed and suffered serious hurdles along the way.nThe F-35 may well yet come to be a possibility if HAL can lever a large chunk from LM. Also the Russians are fickle partners, we've seen many proposed joint programmes since the 1990s like the MTA but glaciers have moved faster than the progress made so far.
 

flateric

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Leonkov is a just a turd.
 

Demon Lord Razgriz

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Hood

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India re-opened its ongoing fighter requirement a couple of weeks ago, perhaps the decision to finally cut loose on the FGFA is linked to that?
I strongly suspect an Indian-built F-16 or F/A-18 is going to ultimately win out.
 

Foo Fighter

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That would seem to be a retrograde step.
 

Hood

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Blitzo

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Hood said:
Just found the Flightglobal link on the reopened competition.
For 110 fighters (82 single-seat and 28 two-seat) with all but 16-17 built in India. Expected contenders are; Boeing F/A-18E/F Block III, Dassault Rafale F3R, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 70, United Aircraft Corp MiG-35 and Saab Gripen E.

This would seemingly confirm a step down from a 'sixth generation' type.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/india-re-opens-competition-to-supply-110-fighters-447392/

?? When was there ever any indication that the IAF was interested in a sixth generation aircraft in the immediate future??
 

Hood

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Well fifth or 5.5 then.
I guess it will come down to which manufacturer is prepared to give full access to HAL for licence-production. Dassault were reportedly reluctant to divulge all the stealthy technologies.
LM and Boeing probably have the most desire to set up a foreign production line to dump the dwindling F-16 and F/A-18 production lines overseas and reduce manufacturing costs at the same time. Btu again, technology transfer might be an issue.
 

AN/AWW-14(V)

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The Indian side has suspended participation in the program for the creation of the first Indian fifth-generation fighter FGFA (Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft) based on the Russian Su-57. Dmitry Shugaev, Director of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, spoke about this in an interview with RBC.


after three years past the Jane's wrote article they admitted it
 
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FighterJock

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So that is the FGFA officially terminated. That will just leave India with its own fifth generation fighter program the AMCA.
 

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So that is the FGFA officially terminated. That will just leave India with its own fifth generation fighter program the AMCA.

Or it will leave India with buying a slightly localized Su-57 in a decade when it is ironed out in its home country and when India can afford it. FGFA was always a pipe dream IMO.
 

stealthflanker

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So i heard the story of FGFA includes so many design changes over the baseline Su-57 which was already frozen at that time and the JV (Joint Venture) nature of the program means that India and Russia will shoulder 50% of development. Which from Russian point of view doesnt make any sense because it will result with entirely new aircraft which Russia may not use yet have to shoulder the burden for its development.
 

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Making too many s-400 purchases and more than likely bother Russia on export availability on the s-500 and S-550 because of Pakistan and China. Since they seem super cheap the LTS looks more favorable than a su-57e purchase.
 

Deino

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So that is the FGFA officially terminated. That will just leave India with its own fifth generation fighter program the AMCA.


Or eventually - and IMO more likely - simply NONE at all! Give their progress on simple trainers, UAV and the Tejas there is NOTHING that gives me any hope, India might ever field an own stealth fighter, at least not in my lifetime. And concerning the LFS/Checkmate these are even more wet-dreams or do you think the US will allow India to keep their own latest stuff in service in parallel to a Russian high end fighter?
 

haavarla

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Its a moot point. US would never ever sell F-35 to India.
Atleast not straight off the bat.
No they will instead continue this effing misleading policy of trying selling India older gen F-16 and F-18 with whatever new lipstick attached to them.
And in the doing, put in some far fetched promises of eventually selling India some F-35.
That would never pass in any senate export commity

Its so obvious that Even India can see through this.
So if they wont buy any Su-57's of the shelf near future, they will have none whatsoever.
 
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FighterJock

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So that is the FGFA officially terminated. That will just leave India with its own fifth generation fighter program the AMCA.


Or eventually - and IMO more likely - simply NONE at all! Give their progress on simple trainers, UAV and the Tejas there is NOTHING that gives me any hope, India might ever field an own stealth fighter, at least not in my lifetime. And concerning the LFS/Checkmate these are even more wet-dreams or do you think the US will allow India to keep their own latest stuff in service in parallel to a Russian high end fighter?

I agree with you on the Tejas point Deino, that is another Indian fighter program that should have been terminated like the FGFA but that it is too important for India to axe as they need to replace a lot of fighters that are getting near obsolescence or are already obsolete like the MiG-21.
 

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