Submersible aircraft

Meanwhile, I found these very interesting pics and article. Hope it hasn't been posted before.

flying_submarine2.jpg


flying_submarine.JPG


Source: From sea to sky: Submarines that fly (Maritime Collector)
 
Matej said:
Well, not Popular mechanics but Air Progress: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,703.msg5408.html#msg5408 We should (everybody) read the topic once again from the beginning.

LOL - surprising the things you learn when you start at the beginning! Thanks ;)
 
Stargazer2006 said:
Is this to say that Scott Lowther also got it wrong?!? ???

http://www.up-ship.com/eAPR/ev2n6.htm

Lets ask him. So far all my sources indicates that the art from the Air Progress was made earlier than any official drawings were made public, but of course I dont have the patent for the truth. I sent him the notification.
 
Matej said:
This is not from Convair, this is the imagination/fantasy from the Popular Mechanics,

While the model looks like a modern "hand crafted by Asian slave labor from genuine Phillipine mahogany" model, it is based on an actual Convair design. The illustrations that Pometeblava posted way back on Page 1 are for real. The artwork was revealed by Convair at least as far back as the 18 March 65 issue of Flight. The three-view matches closely with a configuration that was water-tank tested in 1963, although it looks like a modern reconstruction. A good three-view of the 1965 configuration (which differed from the 63 design by moving the cockpit and the centre engine aft and deleting the wingtip floats) appears in the V2N6 issue of APR.
 
Matej said:
the art from the Air Progress was made earlier than any official drawings were made public...

The Air Progress issue was July, 1965, and had a small article (ten sentences on page 36) similar to the March 65 Flight article describing the concept and illustrated with the same Convair painting.
 
It's also described and illustrated on pages 117-8 of 'Convair Advanced Designs'...


cheers,
Robin.
 
Couple of links to earlier submersible aircraft designs elsewhere on this forum:
1) A 1920 concept for a submersible biplane with telescopic wings here:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,11930.0.html
2) The 1921 Ardo and 1918 Longobardi designs are also here:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,11940.0.html
Cheers, Wingknut
 
This topic just became... well, topical. DARPA - the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency - is apparently seriously soliciting proposals for a submersible aircraft capable of carrying a team of commandos 1000 miles to a target area, then submerging for the last 12 miles, delivering them, loitering in the area (on the surface or submerged) for three days, then recovering the team and returning. All without refuelling, of course. The thing is, I think it actually can be done. The craft does not have to reach a great depth, and that is the key to feasibility.
 
You might want to check the date on this solicitation. I worked on an identical one from DARPA for a couple of months more than two years ago, the requirements were the same IIRC. Are you sure it just came out?
 
AeroFranz said:
You might want to check the date on this solicitation. I worked on an identical one from DARPA for a couple of months more than two years ago, the requirements were the same IIRC. Are you sure it just came out?

Pardon me while I wipe the egg off my face. You are right - I just downloaded the solicitation and it's dated 2008, with a submission deadline in December of that year. I wonder whether there was an award. I was getting brain fever last night working out a preliminary design that might work; I can't help wondering what others might have submitted, and how it was received. Would it be appropriate on this forum to start a thread about prospective solutions to this requirement.
 
No problem, it happens all the time :)
As far as I remember, the solicitation never went anywhere. I never heard of the submersible aircraft afterwards, my company definitely did not get a follow-on contract. My guess is, DARPA must have not been enthusiastic with the proposals they got.
By the way, your name rings a bell...are you the author of "Ducted Fan design" by any chance?
 
AeroFranz said:
No problem, it happens all the time :)
As far as I remember, the solicitation never went anywhere. I never heard of the submersible aircraft afterwards, my company definitely did not get a follow-on contract. My guess is, DARPA must have not been enthusiastic with the proposals they got.
By the way, your name rings a bell...are you the author of "Ducted Fan design" by any chance?

Yes, I'm the co-author of Ducted Fan Design, Volume 1, with my friend George Wright.

Judging from the document I've been able to find on-line - a design study by some Navy activity based loosely on the DARPA requirement - some of the official thinking on this subject is a bit off. The study spilled a lot of ink looking for a powerplant that would work in all three modes of operation - flight, surface and submerged - when some fairly simple reasoning should have showed them that such a thing, if it could be made at all, would be unsatisfactory in at least one mode. It also emphasized battery storage for underwater propulsion and proposed a conventional external-pressure hull for the flight/navigation crew. I haven't finished the whole thing, but so far there's no hint of a sensitivity analysis or any other exercise that would have allowed the authors to assign weights to the various parameters, and that is desperately important in a project like this one with mutually hostile requirements. As you would expect, the resulting dimensions of the craft are gigantic, making it completely unsuitable for a direct clandestine insertion. That means it would have had to carry swimmer delivery vehicles for a standoff insertion at an additional cost in weight, bulk and operational complexity. DARPA's own thinking expressed in the solicitation is also a bit fuzzy, particularly the notion that the machine would be positively buoyant when submerged and would hold itself under hydrodynamically using the wing. That simply would not work operationally for a clandestine insertion - the beast needs to operate at equilibrium, both for the insertion and for loiter at snorkel depth. I hope your company was able to come up with a better scheme!

The late, lamented Ladislao "Paz" Pazmany noticed a trend years ago, abetted by the ready availability of digital computers, toward an immediate start of detail design without doing any kind of qualitative, back-of-the-envelope reasoning first. I noticed the precursor of it in the neglect of dimensional analysis and approximation, at least in undergraduate curricula. One of my many books-in-progress is intended to fill that gap.

Now, having come up with a preliminary layout and a list of key features and then learned that there is no longer a requirement to answer, and with my friend and mentor Hernan neck-deep in an autonomous helicopter project and more or less incommunicado, I am almost frantic to find or create a forum for discussing solutions to this problem - because I am now convinced that the DARPA requirement can be met, and with largely off-the-shelf hardware and a realistic airframe/hull. What's even more shocking to me is that most of the theoretical work is already done, albeit for very different-seeming applications.

Dang! All fired up and no place to go...
 
Marc, I welcome your book project and can't wait to see it come to fruition.
I can tell you that in our case, as you have correctly noted, we realized that a pressure hull was a non-starter. We ended up settling on a floodable fuselage, passengers having to use breathing apparatus for the 12 miles of underwater trip. Nearly everything on an airplane is buoyant underwater, minus the powerplant perhaps, so that was our only choice.
We also had to fold the wings, IIRC.
There was some talk of using primary (non-rechargeable) batteries using saline water as one of the reactants, in order to get higher specific energies and carry less weight.
 
AeroFranz said:
There was some talk of using primary (non-rechargeable) batteries using saline water as one of the reactants, in order to get higher specific energies and carry less weight.

I know that Deep Flight was originally supposed to use a similar battery, but it didn't work out for them. Hawkes mentions it briefly in one of his recent (last several years) talks.
 
AeroFranz said:
Marc, I welcome your book project and can't wait to see it come to fruition.
I can tell you that in our case, as you have correctly noted, we realized that a pressure hull was a non-starter. We ended up settling on a floodable fuselage, passengers having to use breathing apparatus for the 12 miles of underwater trip. Nearly everything on an airplane is buoyant underwater, minus the powerplant perhaps, so that was our only choice.
We also had to fold the wings, IIRC.
There was some talk of using primary (non-rechargeable) batteries using saline water as one of the reactants, in order to get higher specific energies and carry less weight.

I assumed that at least part of the machine would have to stay dry, if only so the crew could take their meals during the loiter period, so I made the flight/navigation crew compartment operate as a "dry ambient" space, while the commandos' compartment was flooded during submergence as per your plan. The dry ambient compartment structure would always be under positive gauge pressure, so methods used in designing pressurized compartments for high-altitude aircraft would work. The commando compartment would also have to be pressurized in flight - it isn't reasonable to expect them to be on oxygen for the entire transit into the operational area, and forcing transit at low altitude is operationally limiting and uneconomical. So basically you end up with two personnel spaces: one always under positive gauge pressure and one under positive gauge pressure in flight and zero gauge pressure on the surface and submerged, but wet when submerged. Interesting materials selection problem, but not structurally challenging. The operational challenge is of course the problem of saturation and avoiding caisson disease; that criterion - depth and duration - is what will determine the diving limits in this kind of machine. I'm hoping that the machine will end up small enough to make an approach at shallow depth realistic.

For the overall configuration I postulate a slender body - how slender depends on aerodynamic performance required, but there are applicable studies of slender bodies for short-haul airliners dating to the 1960's. The idea is to have continuously-curved surfaces throughout to minimize "conventional" radar cross-section. No excrescences in any mode but snorkeling - all antennas housed inboard except the antenna array on the snorkel mast. From a frontal aspect, even on imaging sonar, the body will look very much like a natural formation - a rock outcrop or whatever - with the snorkel retracted. I would make no concession to surface seakeeping; the "surface" loiter configuration for this beast would be a drift dive at snorkel depth. Takeoff would be accomplished using one or more retractable hydro-skis, and bleed-air from the compressor of one of the gas generators could be used to help "unstick" the rather large wetted bottom area to help get the machine ski-borne.

Given the military's (and my) preference for heavy fuel and the weight penalty of a diesel powerplant, I postulate a gas-turbine-based powerplant consisting of one or more gas generators (probably more) and at least two free power turbines, one of them driving a high-bypass turbofan for flight and another the surface/snorkeling drive system, which with my predilection for shrouded propulsors I would prefer to be a waterjet. A third free power turbine might drive an APU, or perhaps the turbine for the marine drive could do double duty. Liquid fuel is still vastly superior to battery and ultracapacitor storage in terms of both mass and volume, so I am assuming that submerged loiter and most of the final approach to the target are accomplished using the snorkel. There is an operational advantage here in that the snorkel mast will also have an antenna array that will allow the flight/nav crew to monitor their environment for imminent threats and to receive one-way radio and possibly optical communication from their base, and of course navigation signals to update the inertial navigation system used when submerged. Naturally there will be video cameras at mast-top as well, so the operators and the crew can "scope out" their insertion point. Final approach to the insertion point would be under electrical power, still using the waterjet but driving it with an electric motor coaxial with the free power turbine. Here is where bleeding edge technology could give high returns - every ounce of battery weight and every cubic inch of dry storage saved would save pounds overall. There is work currently being done on integrating energy storage into the skin of a composite stressed-skin craft, and this might be a flagship application.

Buoyancy control is murder, as you've noted, so I've stolen one idea from the Navy study. They have the fuel stored in flexible bladders in a space that is flooded when submerged. The pressure of the incoming water displaces fuel into the (now sealed) gas generators and power turbine(s), flooding them with fuel and expelling the air contained inside. Those spaces are now at ambient pressure (kept there automatically), but are filled with fuel which is a good deal less buoyant than air. My plural gas generator, plural turbine arrangement implies a lot of bulky ducting, and I fear that the ducting, and possibly the propulsive fan, will have to be flooded when submerged. This implies a fairly elaborate procedure for reconfiguring the craft for takeoff after recovery of the commandos, and it will need to be automated to the maximum extent possible. I'm pretty sure that it will not be permissible to have any free-flooding volume - it will have to be possible to positively expel water from every space that it occupies during submergence. Fortunately, with even one gas generator operating there will be a lot of bleed-air available for blowing out ballast, and air-driven ejectors can be used to scavenge the last bit of water from tight spaces. Obviously, this scheme calls for at least one gas generator and one turbine to be in sealed, one-atmosphere-pressure environments at all times - it may be necessary to have one gas generator integral with and dedicated to the APU/marine turbine to keep volume and weight down. That's going to take some effort to make it work, but I think the only near-term solution is to rely primarily on liquid fuels as the energy source and on combustion engines to convert them to useful work.
 
Marc, it's clear you ahve given this a lot of thought :)
some of the issues you mention bring back some memories, we definitely came across the same things, and I can't say we had good solutions for all of them. I don't know what you are planning to do with the wings, but our solution was to fold them (Grumman Avenger-style), get them out of the way. We also had to flood them or else buoyancy would have killed us.
I'm sure you have thought of this, but i recommend paying attention to the alighting devices. I am not too familiar with hydroskis, but check to make sure they are suitable for your seastate requirement. I think we ended up settling on a planning hull.
It also helps a lot to slow down as much as possible before making contact with the water (hence for example the Shinmaywa US-1 boundary layer control high lift devices).
Just a few random thoughts based on memories. Good luck!
 
AeroFranz said:
Marc, it's clear you ahve given this a lot of thought :)
some of the issues you mention bring back some memories, we definitely came across the same things, and I can't say we had good solutions for all of them. I don't know what you are planning to do with the wings, but our solution was to fold them (Grumman Avenger-style), get them out of the way. We also had to flood them or else buoyancy would have killed us.
I'm sure you have thought of this, but i recommend paying attention to the alighting devices. I am not too familiar with hydroskis, but check to make sure they are suitable for your seastate requirement. I think we ended up settling on a planning hull.
It also helps a lot to slow down as much as possible before making contact with the water (hence for example the Shinmaywa US-1 boundary layer control high lift devices).
Just a few random thoughts based on memories. Good luck!

Actually, the worse the sea state, the more hydroskis are indicated. A planing hull suffers very high overpressures in the initial touchdown, and those pressures increase drastically if the water is rough. Losses due to caved-in bottoms were common in flying boat days - some of them caused by bad weather but most by pilots trying to make a flared landing, landplane style, and flaring too high. Hydroskis were developed primarily to reduce wetted area of the hull during planing and thus shorten takeoff, but their benefits for reducing landing were recognized quite early. There's a whole family of videos on Youtube transferred from NACA film showing towing-tank tests of hydroskis tested as ditching aids for conventional landplane fuselages, the idea being that they would give a disabled plane a better chance of ditching without breaking up on impact and thus give the crew a better chance of survival. Other videos show them used as the primary takeoff and landing aid for flying boats. One conspicuously successful experimental type tested at full scale was a modified C-123 with the lower fuselage sealed but not reinforced, and hydro-skis added.

As for the wing panels, my notion is not to have any. I'm basing my thinking on a family of slender subsonic lifting bodies studied in the 1960s by G.H. Lee and S.B. Gates and vigorously advocated by Kuechemann in his monumental Aerodynamic Design of Aircraft (1978). Those were never implemented despite their surprising efficiency, I think because of the engineering difficulties of building a non-cylindrical pressure cabin - a problem being tackled once again with the blended wing-body concepts currently under study. That isn't a problem with this scheme because the tiny pressure cabin can be cylindrical and thus quite conventional.

Of course the entire body, minus the APU/marine drive compartment and the crew compartment, must be flooded for submergence. All that I was saying is that none of it can be FREE-flooding, like the perforated deck casing of a submarine. When it comes time to take to the air, there has to be a way of positively expelling and then excluding all the water from inside the slender aerobody. Doing some layout studies also pointed out that it will be difficult to get static trim submerged if the crew compartment is all the way forward as in a conventional layout. It may have to be located on or near the center of volume of the body. and the crew would then have to rely entirely on video cameras for their view of the world outside.

The more I look at this beast, the more convinced I am that it's doable, but only at the cost of a lot of de novo engineering in areas that normally are no-brainers, like: how do you build aerodynamically efficient inlets that can be sealed watertight with a simple, reliable mechanism?
 
piolenc said:
This topic just became... well, topical. DARPA - the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency - is apparently seriously soliciting proposals for a submersible aircraft capable of carrying a team of commandos 1000 miles to a target area, then submerging for the last 12 miles, delivering them, loitering in the area (on the surface or submerged) for three days, then recovering the team and returning. All without refuelling, of course. The thing is, I think it actually can be done. The craft does not have to reach a great depth, and that is the key to feasibility.

Would a submersible WIG design fit the requirement best in this case?
 
Grey Havoc said:
Would a submersible WIG design fit the requirement best in this case?

Making the flying part a WIG would certainly save on wing area, but at the cost of extended travel time and loss of versatility. In order to get a benefit from ground effect, a WIG has to operate in a speed range where induced drag predominates, so we're basically talking 200 knots or less. And a Class A WIG won't be able to fly out of ground effect and thus will be constrained to stay over water.
 
My dear Jemiba,


I know it from more than two years,but I thought,it was just a speculative design at that time,
I don't know it is a real project.
 
The latest issue of the "Fliegerkalender" yearbook has an article, written by Ferdinand CW. Käsmann
about submersible aircraft/flying submarines.
Two mentioned examples are patents, one from Donald Doolitle, 1955, US-patent 2.720.367 for a jet driven,
as it seems quite conventional low wing aircraft, the other from Antone Arruda, 1974, US-patent D.230.893,
a delta wing with jet engines over the wing and considerable dihedral, as it seems.
Sorry, the planviews are shown just stamp sized and the artist impression of the Arruda project is spoiled
by the centerfold and surrounding text ..
BTW, there are several pre-war types mentioned, too, so I'll start a new topic in pre-war projects section.
We already have some older designs in this thread, if possible, I'll move them.
 

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A very interesting my dear Jemiba,


and here is from the Patent,its drawings.
 

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Thank you hesham !
Another type from the mentioned book is the Lockheed CL-865, variants -1 and -2. Only given data
is a weight of 11,000 kg. It is said to have been twin seater, fitted with hydro and to have been "similar
to the flying boat Pereira Osprey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osprey_Osprey_I ), but about twice its
size.
 

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Great find my dear Jemiba,


and also from my dear Scott (Orionblamblam),the Lockheed CL-865 submersible
aircraft.
 

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Maybe fooled once more by the search function, but I couldn't find the diving aircraft designed and offered to the
US Navy by Adolph F. Craft and Dick Cardwell (US-patent 3.082.275 from 1963). Fitted with foldable wings ad a rear
loading rampit should be powered by two rear props on and under the water and by two jet engines for flight.
 

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Interesting reading, but both shown designs for submersible aircraft (fro the linked report, page 24 and 30)
are just notional designs, aren't they ?
 

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Well I've read this very entertaining and informative thread.

I've a question: Someone has the measures of Ushakov LPL? Because I found the speed , weight but not the length and wingspan.
 
Hi,


here is a small article about Submersible aircraft,from Air Pictorial 12/1955.
 

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This illustration is pure fiction on the part of the magazine's illustrator.

The Doolittle design for All-American Engineering is well-known and appears here:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,703.msg199588.html#msg199588

I'm attaching a better image, my own reworking and a period article, from my personal files:
 

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Hi,


a Flying Submarine.


http://nnm.me/blogs/vi_pro/unikalnaya_i_paradoksalnaya_voennaya_tehnika/
 

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The text from that site is too low-res for useful OCR, but the first type probably is the
Reid RFS Commander, we had here http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,703.msg13874.html#msg13874
and the other one the (notional ?) type posted by Matej here http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,703.msg5408.html#msg5408
Would always be nice, to get the information from such a source, too, either by translating
at least the key data by oneself, or ask a native speaker beforehand. ;)
 
My dear Jemiba,


I know their names before,and they are very famous,so I don't mention it.
 

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