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Submersible aircraft

Antonio

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SAAB 1376: "U-plan" was also in this series (a variable geometry turborocket submersible M 2 fighter

Matej, do you have more info or pics about this beast? :eek:
 

Antonio

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From the superb book (lots of unbuilt projects): Cold War Submarines by Norman Polmar and KJ Moore. Brassey's ISBN: 1-57488-594-4

This is the only submersible aircraft I have drawings, the Convair "submersible seaplane" from 1964. It was cancelled in 1966.

I know that Dassault also developed a "submersible seaplane" but it was not a sub-hunter as that Convair's design. Dassault vehicle was a shuttle to link submarine facilities either civil or military. Sub-cities never materialized so the submersible seaplane remained on the drawing board. I'll try to draw what I remember from that pic I saw when I was younger and post it here.

Cheers
Antonio
 

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Matej

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pometablava said:
Matej, do you have more info or pics about this beast? :eek:
Its my wish to see it. Here is what I found so far about submersible aircrafts...

First was B. P. Ushakov with its submersible plane LPL from 1934. On the other side of the Pacific the first inventor was Houston Harrington (known more as owner of music company). He influenced Donald V. Reid, who built and tested (!) his own flying submarine RFS-1. Now this plane is in Mid Atlantic Aviation Museum in Pensilvania, but my asking for some pictures from museum stuff went nowhere.
 

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Matej

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Pometablava - pictures that you posted are fakes. They are from 1962 issue of Air Progress. They were published before official drawings, so they are pure fantasy.

I have another interesting fantasy - project of submersible fighter that was printed in many aviation magazines in 1967. It had two independent propulsion systems. It was also used in book from Jean Jacques Antier named Operation avion sous-marin.

My drawing shows, how real Convair submersible aircraft should look like. Everything here from my still unpublished web update.
 

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Antonio

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Pometablava - pictures that you posted are fakes. They are from 1962 issue of Air Progress. They were published before official drawings, so they are pure fantasy.

Thanks for the info and the pics Matej ;)

Well, it seems that even the most reputed writers (Norman Polmar) are not perfect :eek:
 

Antonio

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I know that Dassault also developed a "submersible seaplane" but it was not a sub-hunter as that Convair's design. Dassault vehicle was a shuttle to link submarine facilities either civil or military. Sub-cities never materialized so the submersible seaplane remained on the drawing board. I'll try to draw what I remember from that pic I saw when I was younger and post it here.
This is the sketch I draw today from what I remember. Anybody can show a drawing of the real thing?. Perhaps Archibald or Tophe...have you ever seen this project in the pages of Science et Vie?. I would like to know the date of this design...

Any help will be of great value for me. Thanks
 

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boxkite

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Here is more stuff. Artwork and sketches come from "Samolyot i podvodnaya lodka" by Lesnichenko & Gusev (ISBN 5817200538, Sankt Peterburg, 2001).

Let me know if identification is possible. Designers resp. manufacturers Beriev, Popadales and Reid are speculations.
 

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Antonio

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Danke schön my Dear Friend!. Totally new for me ::)
 

Archibald

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Dont forget the Espadon from professor Mortimer ;)
 

Matej

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Pictures named "Reid Airship 1968" and "Submersible Plane 1" seems to be the same plane as from book Operation avion sous-marin.
 

amsci99

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boxkite said:
Here is more stuff. Artwork and sketches come from "Samolyot i podvodnaya lodka" by Lesnichenko & Gusev (ISBN 5817200538, Sankt Peterburg, 2001).

Let me know if identification is possible. Designers resp. manufacturers Beriev, Popadales and Reid are speculations.
This seems to be an interesting publication, are the contents mainly on unbuilt project aircraft? Thanks.
 

boxkite

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Built and unbuilt ones. I had only the chance to borrow the book making some scans. Unfortunately it's not in my own bookshelf (to have more time for a partially translation).
 

XB-35

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hi All,

I'm looking for infos (drawings, prints) about some projected aircraft that can turn into a submarine.

I've already seen an illustration about a Convair project from the 60's (?) of that kind of "aircraft".

However, I don't known if there were other projects and if mockups were built ?

Thanks for the info,

All the Best,

XB-35
 

Antonio

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Take a look at "Submarines with Wings by Terry Treadwell" ISBN: 0 85177 3699.
 

lark

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There's an excellent piece of information in the modelstories site.
'Le reve du sous-marin volant'

http://kitbox.free.fr/dossiers/Fsub_base/index.html
 

Kim Margosein

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What the hell was the mission of these submersible aircraft? BTW, is that soviet flying sub some sort of hoax?

Kim M
 

Matej

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Topics merged

Kim Margosein said:
What the hell was the mission of these submersible aircraft? BTW, is that soviet flying sub some sort of hoax?

Kim M
The general purpose of the such a crazy idea was unexpected attack. Some, ehm, radical form of temporary stealth. ;D

If you are asking about Ushakov LPL, this was the real project (or better to say proposal) that was in 1937 integrated into the NIVK (military commision for the science research) task list, but after some revisions - typical for that era - was definitely cancelled.
 

Hood

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Of all the idiotic schemes in the aviation world I can't help thinking that this is the worst. Water and aircrraft don't mix, for a start their not suited to underwater use. Neither are jet engines. Basing them aboard subs is one thing but flyling them underwater just silly. :eek:
 

smurf

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Basing them aboard subs is one thing
I quite agree. But if anyone can tell me source of this rather poor photocopy, I'd be grateful
 

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hesham

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Hi smurf,

It was Douglas Model-640 aircraft,see also that information
under title; Wiping Out SAC
http://www.afa.org/magazine/march2004/0304sub.html
 

lark

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line drawings by R G Smith from:

'Submarines with Wings' Terry C.Treadwell
foreword by Ed.Heinemann
Conway Maritime Press Ltd -1985 London
and
'Strike from beneath the Sea'
Terry C.Treadwell
Tempus Publishing Ltd -1999 Stroud
 

Antonio

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Lark,

what's the difference between both books?
 

lark

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Evening Pometabla...

The second one is reworked , more extensive version of the
original book .
 

Matej

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Hood said:
Of all the idiotic schemes in the aviation world I can't help thinking that this is the worst. Water and aircrraft don't mix, for a start their not suited to underwater use. Neither are jet engines. Basing them aboard subs is one thing but flyling them underwater just silly. :eek:
I personaly dont think so. You really need to try also the unconventional and bizare ideas to find the best solution of the problem. Yes - sometimes they are not successfull, but sometimes they are better than anything else. Its natural process of development and I think that to be limited only with the proven and classical ideas and solutions is much worser.
 

Jemiba

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... and it works !
AFAIK, this is the only example of this strange kind of aircraft (or submarine ?),
which was really built and tested in 1964, the Reid RFS Commander, "RFS" for
Reids Flying Submarine.
Just found this in FlugRevue 5/1969
 

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Jos Heyman

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Jemiba said:
... and it works !
AFAIK, this is the only example of this strange kind of aircraft (or submarine ?),
which was really built and tested in 1964, the Reid RFS Commander, "RFS" for
Reids Flying Submarine.
Just found this in FlugRevue 5/1969
But did it fly? Anybody can build something that floats with something like wings and a prop - it does not mean it can fly.
But did it submerge? Anybody can build something that is half submerged in the water - it does not mean it is a submersible.

Other questions: how does that prop operate in the water. It sure does not look like it can withstand the heavy medium of water. And, since the cockpit is not covered, how do you prevent the pilot from drowning....

No, I think I stick to what everybody else has suggested: it's a fake. But it is a nice fake.....

Jos Heyman
 

Jemiba

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The FlugRevue article says in short the following :
The RFS Commander was completed in 1961, using parts of different
scrapped aircraft .It was powered by a 65 hp on the pylon above the wing,
which in the first configuration, also served as cockpit. Before submerging,
the engine had to be covered by a large cover made of rubber.Due to poor
visibility from this "control tower" the cockpit was moved to the bow, the pilot
had to use an aqua lung in both cases. In the tail was an electric motor with a
power of 1 hp, driving the vehicle in water.After diving tests, the maiden flight
ended with an accident, because water had poured into the tail, shifting the cg
out of limits. On 9th of June 1964, Bruce Reid dived with his machine to a depth
of around 2 meters, with a speed of 4 knots. After surfacing again, he removed
the cover from the motor, installed the prop (!) and took off for a flight with a
maximum speed of 100 km/h and a height of 10m. This time, the landing was
without any trouble. Besides the fact that "a man must do, what he have to do !",
the main aim of Mr. Reid seems to have been the patent for this aircraft/submarine,
combination, because later he told the press, that "every submersible aircraft, that
will be built, would be based on his idea" . But the Pentagon officials had another point
of view ...
Not very practical, not more, than a kind of a toy, but I think, the "inventor" had
different ideas apart from the use of this example !
 

Jos Heyman

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Jemiba said:
The FlugRevue article says in short the following :
The RFS Commander was completed in 1961, using parts of different
scrapped aircraft . etc
Thanks for this

Jos Heyman
 

Jemiba

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"The Commander looks kinda like this guy:"

.. and this is probably exactly the kind of aircraft, Reid has demanded a
licence fee for ! ;D
 

Matej

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Thanks Jemiba, you made my day! I had only one low-quality photo of RFS posted in reply no.2 so now I can see the shape of the rear fuselage.
 

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I've scanned in and made availabe “Proposed Study of a Flying Submersible ASW Vehicle,” General Dynamics/Convair report HP-62-016, from 1962. This is, so far as I am aware, the only real documentation out there (not counting a few articles and a couple drawings) about Convairs flying submarine. Or submersible airplane. Whichever it is...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250136109046

 

Skybolt

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And what about a submersible Polaris-launcher seaplane with four Phoenixes and two Subrocs for self defense? In a word, the Petrel. The two Polaris are in the two large tubes amidship. They can be launched via extraction by a parachute, both submerged and flying. The Phoenixes are in flush compartments two per side, the Subrocs are in tubes under the nose. The concept was presented by two Virginia Tech guys at the 12th AIAA Annual Meeting and Technical Display in 1976.
 

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Jemiba

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Interesting concept, looks like a scaled down P6M Seamaster. How serious was
it ? Launching the Polaris may have been ok, just launching the Phoenix and Subroc, too,
but squeezing the avionics especially for the last two weapons systems into this aircraft,
may have been a very hard task, I think. And the whole thing submersible ! :eek:
 

Orionblamblam

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Jemiba said:
Interesting concept, looks like a scaled down P6M Seamaster. How serious was
it ?
Not at all, actually. it was a project by a few college students. Got them their grade and presumably their degrees, but it was not a serious industry effort.
 

Skybolt

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Scott has it right, naturally... ;)
 
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I've seen a concept of this in the movie "Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow". Pretty cool!

Me and my friend are comming up with our own designs for submersible helicopters. has anyone else come up with designs like these?
 

Michel Van

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So far i know no

if was Project like this only with Retractable propellers.

Helicopter propellers dont work in underwater
water is 800 x dencer as Air ...
 

lark

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Justo Miranda said:
I am not sure whether this drawing belongs to real projects or fantastic illustrations.
Could you help me classify it, please?

The plane taking off from the water is a submersible aircraft
concept of 1967 by a Mr. M.Evans.

See: Les sous-marins volants on the modelstories site...
 
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