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Space Shuttle Concepts

Triton

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Does anyone know anything about these space shuttle designs? The images come from the Altair VI blog site and the author mentioned something about the Solar Power Station. Was the Solar Power Station the idea of having solar cells in space and then microwaving down the electricity? Anyone know more about these space shuttle designs and the ideas for the Solar Power Station?
 

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Orionblamblam

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Those are Boeing "Space Freighter" concepts for SPS.
 

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Orionblamblam

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Triton said:
Orionblamblam said:
Triton said:
Orionblamblam, do you know of any sources to get additional information about the Boeing "Space Freighter"?

Yes.

And those sources would be? ;D

Nope, they would not be ;D

Hopefully not a government publication that has been thrown away in a dumpster.

Very likely some of the best of them have in fact been trashed. However, NTRS has a number of SPS reports online with space freighter info in 'em. Not a whole lot that's very detailed on the launch systems themselves, unfortunately.
[/quote]
 

Triton

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Orionblamblam said:
Hopefully not a government publication that has been thrown away in a dumpster.

Very likely some of the best of them have in fact been trashed. However, NTRS has a number of SPS reports online with space freighter info in 'em. Not a whole lot that's very detailed on the launch systems themselves, unfortunately.

Thanks for the information. As you can probably tell I am new in these parts. :) Just discovered the NASA Technical Reports Server.
 

Michel Van

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thats Boeing HLLV from 1976-79

Quote
Boeing also investigated large two-stage vertical takeoff, horizontal landing (VTHL TSTO) heavy-lift reusable launch vehicles for 380-420t payloads. The company's "reference vehicle" from 1976 was used as a baseline for NASA's early SPS technology assessments. Its gross liftoff mass was 11,000t and the payload capability was 420t. The specific transportation cost was $44/kg [1978 economic conditions].

source: from Marcus Lindroos homepage
 

Triton

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Michel Van said:
thats Boeing HLLV from 1976-79

Quote
Boeing also investigated large two-stage vertical takeoff, horizontal landing (VTHL TSTO) heavy-lift reusable launch vehicles for 380-420t payloads. The company's "reference vehicle" from 1976 was used as a baseline for NASA's early SPS technology assessments. Its gross liftoff mass was 11,000t and the payload capability was 420t. The specific transportation cost was $44/kg [1978 economic conditions].

source: from Marcus Lindroos homepage

What is the URL of the Marcus Lindroos' homepage? It appears to have moved.
 

Archibald

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Browse Lindroos on this board (use the search function) - Lindroos website has died two years ago, and found its way to the Internet Wayback Machine. I've sought it there, found it, and posted links on this forum.
 

Michel Van

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you mean this link Archibald ?
http://web.archive.org/web/20010407201650/www.abo.fi/~mlindroo/Space.htm
 

Triton

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Michel Van said:
you mean this link Archibald ?
http://web.archive.org/web/20010407201650/www.abo.fi/~mlindroo/Space.htm

Thank you very much Archibald and Michel. ;D

Additional:

I sent an e-mail to Marcus about his Space pages and he told me that he still has the files and would like to re-upload them on the Internet if there was a good free Web hosting service. The ones that I can think of are now defunct. Any recommendations for a new home for Marcus' Space pages?

Post additional:

Does anyone know if the Boeing HLLV was meant to be manned or unmanned? What would be the crew size? What was the number planned for manufacture to support the SPS program?
 

Archibald

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Indubitablement, Michel !

Mr Triton, you sucedeed were we all failed : you make contact with Mr Lindroos! Well done. ;D

Hey, I have an idea. Mr Lindroos should try this one blogspot.

Here's a excellent example http://altairvi.blogspot.com/

Another (personnal) example. ;D

http://early-lunar-access.blogspot.com/

It is free and you can post pictures quite easily. Altair VI looks good, can't imagine a cross with Lindroos former website... what a nice combination it would be.
 

hesham

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Hi,


http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1976/1976%20-%202148.html
 

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saturncanuck

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I realize this is an old topic but I just upon it.

Has anyone got any views of the original concept of a hypersonic carrier vehicle piggy-backing the shuttle?
 

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Robert McCall paintings (From his official website)

The shuttles on the right look like they are based off this Boeing space freighter concept
 

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Triton

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Artist's impression of Boeing Heavy Lift Launch Vehicle (HLLV) concept.

A possible configuration of a heavy lift launch vehicle. Taking off vertically,, like the Space Shuttle, this launcher could place up to 500 tons into low Earth orbit. Both stages are recoverable. (Photo, The Boeing Company)

Source:
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/pao/History/SP-440/ch8-2.htm
 

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Triton

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Grumman Boeing space shuttle pump-fed ballistic recoverable booster concept model.

URL:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Grumman-Boeing-Space-Shuttle-Pump-Fed-Ballistic-recoverable-Booster-prototype-/230714276786?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b7a47bb2

Seller's description:
Up for auction is a rare model of the Grumman Boeing Space Shuttle Pump Fed Ballistic recoverable Booster prototype A rare piece of history and offered on auction

Model is made up with from wood metal paint and decals. There are some paint nicks on the model and some cracking of the paint on a couple of spots. Space shuttle's wing tips have some blue paint missing and the biggest issues is the bottom of the first stage is chipped off.
 

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Triton

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Grumman Boeing space shuttle pump-fed ballistic recoverable booster concept model.
 

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Grey Havoc

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Triton said:
Artist's impression of Boeing Heavy Lift Launch Vehicle (HLLV) concept.

A possible configuration of a heavy lift launch vehicle. Taking off vertically,, like the Space Shuttle, this launcher could place up to 500 tons into low Earth orbit. Both stages are recoverable. (Photo, The Boeing Company)

I wonder how much it would cost in today's dollars. Hmmmm.
 

Triton

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Boeing space shuttle concept painting found on eBay.

Source:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Early-Boeing-Space-Shuttle-Concept-painting-/290776345949?pt=Art_Paintings&hash=item43b39eed5d
 

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http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/01/in-memoriam-space-shuttle-related-beyond-apollo-posts/

Below is a list of links to Beyond Apollo posts related to Shuttle and Station spanning from 1962 to 1992. Proposed space stations often appear paired with crew and cargo spacecraft other than the Shuttle Orbiter, such as modified Apollo CSMs. The Nixon Administration approved the Shuttle in early 1972, but not the Station it was meant to serve. This placed NASA in the unenviable position of inventing tasks for the Shuttle. Because of this, it sometimes appears coupled with systems for giving it enhanced functionality; for example, a solar power module designed to turn the Shuttle Orbiter into a makeshift space station.
 

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The Space Shuttle Launch and Recovery Site Review Board better know as The Thompson Board

In 1971 they study 150! candidate Launch site for Phase B Shuttle,
a few proposed by NASA, the rest more by members of US Congress, Governors and Others lobbyist...

Most of them were USAF bases
several Civilian Airports.
Texas was in special focus with 22 sites (because NASA’s Manned Spacecraft Center located here)
Board focused also on sonic booms of returning Booster and Orbiter, (oddly they no look on extreme noise during launch).
in end The Space Shuttle Launch and Recovery Site Review Board crop down 150 to 7 Launch & Landing site

Kennedy Space Center, Florida (launch & landing)
Vandenberg Air Force Base, California (launch, also landing ?)
Edwards Air Force Base, California (landing)
Las Vegas, Nevada (landing)
Matagorda Island, Texas. (launch, also landing ?)
Michael Army Air Field/Dugway Proving Ground, Utah (landing)
Mountain Home Air Force Base, Idaho. (landing)

Source
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/category/beyond-apollo/

The graphic show the 150 site, sadly not there function as Launch or landing site...
 

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Graham1973

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Somewhere I've got a study relating to the Matagorda launch site, but I've never been able to run down a plan of the proposed facilities.
 

Archibald

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That wired article is damn interesting. Does Matagorda island ring a bell ? in 1981-82 it is from that place that David Hannah Jr Space Services Inc. wanted to launch private rockets (Gary Hudson Percheron and Deke Slayton Conestoga)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conestoga_%28rocket%29

Now I understand better why did David Hannah Jr. picked up Matagorda island. There must have been a connection with the NASA study of a decade before.

According to the article Matagorda could replace both the Cape and Vandenberg - does this mean a rocket could be launched into a polar orbit from Matagorda ?
 

Michel Van

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Archibald said:
That wired article is damn interesting. Does Matagorda island ring a bell ? in 1981-82 it is from that place that David Hannah Jr Space Services Inc. wanted to launch private rockets (Gary Hudson Percheron and Deke Slayton Conestoga)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conestoga_%28rocket%29

Now I understand better why did David Hannah Jr. picked up Matagorda island. There must have been a connection with the NASA study of a decade before.
According to the article Matagorda could replace both the Cape and Vandenberg - does this mean a rocket could be launched into a polar orbit from Matagorda ?

on Polar launch, yes is possible. But the booster flies parallel to Mexico coastline and orbiter has to cross Mexico near Mexico city.
i think that mexican government would not very happy with that.

By the way,
236 km south lies Brownsville, Texas.
A site consider for Nova and Saturn V Launch site in 1961.
 

Michel Van

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early today Shuttle design.


A nice model and I not mean the plexiglas one...
 

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luke strawwalker

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Graham1973 said:
Somewhere I've got a study relating to the Matagorda launch site, but I've never been able to run down a plan of the proposed facilities.

I've read that too... Look for the "Spiro T. Agnew Space Center" or something to that effect...

I live about 50 miles or so from Matagorda... (BTW it's incorrectly positioned on the map-- Matagorda is MUCH further up the coast and closer to JSC in Houston (maybe 75 miles apart or thereabouts). I used to work at the nuclear plant that was built on the site they were proposing, basically, or very close to it. It's just south of the city of Bay City, Texas, in Matagorda County, TX. It wouldn't have been over an hour or so west of Johnson Space Center in Clear Lake, TX...

In fact, one of the proposals I was reading about for a commercial rocket attempted a launch from the Matagorda Bay area... unsuccessfully...

At the time, they were planning to completely scrap KSC and the SLC-39 infrastructure, including the VAB, pads, MLPs, crawlers, everything... start shuttle off with a clean slate. IIRC they were planning on going back to either horizontal integration and roll out to the pad via rail carriage (like Soyuz, Proton, N-1, Energia, etc) or 'stack on the pad' much like Saturn IB had been done. OF course this was pretty early in the shuttle design cycle, and those plans were in flux even as they were being looked at. ET's could have been easily transferred the 450 miles or so from Michoud to Matagorda via the Intercoastal Waterway, which passes quite near Clear Lake en route, and continues from across Galveston Bay, hugging the coastline, until it enters Matagorda Bay, and then continues onward down the coastline to the bay at Port Lavaca and on down to Padre Island at Corpus Christi (naval base and industrial area) and on down to Brownsville, TX. IIRC, they were gonna fly a "hooked" trajectory out over the Gulf of Mexico to jettison boosters (pressure fed at the time??) and then recover them via ships, bringing them back to the launch site via Matagorda Bay...

It was an interesting proposal, but it would have cost HUGE sums of money, and of course it was POLITICALLY untenable, because it would have meant shutting down KSC altogether. In the end, the reuse of the existing Saturn infrastructure at KSC was seen as the "obvious choice" and saved billions in not creating an entirely new space center out of rice fields and cattle pastures along the upper Texas coast...

Later! OL JR :)
 

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Archibald said:
That wired article is damn interesting. Does Matagorda island ring a bell ? in 1981-82 it is from that place that David Hannah Jr Space Services Inc. wanted to launch private rockets (Gary Hudson Percheron and Deke Slayton Conestoga)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conestoga_%28rocket%29

Now I understand better why did David Hannah Jr. picked up Matagorda island. There must have been a connection with the NASA study of a decade before.

According to the article Matagorda could replace both the Cape and Vandenberg - does this mean a rocket could be launched into a polar orbit from Matagorda ?

Polar orbit from Matagorda?? I don't see how without overflying most of South America (if launching due south) or North America (if launching due north) and even low inclination equatorial orbits are problematical, because even launching southeast, you're going to overfly either parts of the Florida peninsula, or Cuba, or the Carribbean Island nations... and splashing expended stages or boosters or whatever would be awfully close to these places from Matagorda...

Personally I don't see how you could possibly do a polar launch from Matagorda with any kind of a range safety aspect to it... besides, now the coastal waters off Texas are filled with offshore oil platforms... You can literally see them and count them from the beach, and that's just the ones close in to shore... kinda makes range safety concerns a BIG deal... (how much does it cost to evacuate an oil platform?? I know they have a fit when a hurricane is coming!)

Later! OL JR :)
 

Archibald

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luke strawwalker said:
Archibald said:
That wired article is damn interesting. Does Matagorda island ring a bell ? in 1981-82 it is from that place that David Hannah Jr Space Services Inc. wanted to launch private rockets (Gary Hudson Percheron and Deke Slayton Conestoga)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conestoga_%28rocket%29

Now I understand better why did David Hannah Jr. picked up Matagorda island. There must have been a connection with the NASA study of a decade before.

According to the article Matagorda could replace both the Cape and Vandenberg - does this mean a rocket could be launched into a polar orbit from Matagorda ?

Polar orbit from Matagorda?? I don't see how without overflying most of South America (if launching due south) or North America (if launching due north) and even low inclination equatorial orbits are problematical, because even launching southeast, you're going to overfly either parts of the Florida peninsula, or Cuba, or the Carribbean Island nations... and splashing expended stages or boosters or whatever would be awfully close to these places from Matagorda...

Personally I don't see how you could possibly do a polar launch from Matagorda with any kind of a range safety aspect to it... besides, now the coastal waters off Texas are filled with offshore oil platforms... You can literally see them and count them from the beach, and that's just the ones close in to shore... kinda makes range safety concerns a BIG deal... (how much does it cost to evacuate an oil platform?? I know they have a fit when a hurricane is coming!)

Later! OL JR :)

Eureka ! The original shuttle was to be fully reusable, so no stages could fall on populated areas... I suppose that was the reasonning at the time. Not worse that erasing KSC from the face of Earth. So may be the original shuttle could have launched into polar orbit from Matagorda ?
What is sure is that Space Services Inc. expendables (Percheron, Conestoga) could not.
 

luke strawwalker

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Archibald said:
luke strawwalker said:
Archibald said:
That wired article is damn interesting. Does Matagorda island ring a bell ? in 1981-82 it is from that place that David Hannah Jr Space Services Inc. wanted to launch private rockets (Gary Hudson Percheron and Deke Slayton Conestoga)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conestoga_%28rocket%29

Now I understand better why did David Hannah Jr. picked up Matagorda island. There must have been a connection with the NASA study of a decade before.

According to the article Matagorda could replace both the Cape and Vandenberg - does this mean a rocket could be launched into a polar orbit from Matagorda ?

Polar orbit from Matagorda?? I don't see how without overflying most of South America (if launching due south) or North America (if launching due north) and even low inclination equatorial orbits are problematical, because even launching southeast, you're going to overfly either parts of the Florida peninsula, or Cuba, or the Carribbean Island nations... and splashing expended stages or boosters or whatever would be awfully close to these places from Matagorda...

Personally I don't see how you could possibly do a polar launch from Matagorda with any kind of a range safety aspect to it... besides, now the coastal waters off Texas are filled with offshore oil platforms... You can literally see them and count them from the beach, and that's just the ones close in to shore... kinda makes range safety concerns a BIG deal... (how much does it cost to evacuate an oil platform?? I know they have a fit when a hurricane is coming!)

Later! OL JR :)

Eureka ! The original shuttle was to be fully reusable, so no stages could fall on populated areas... I suppose that was the reasonning at the time. Not worse that erasing KSC from the face of Earth. So may be the original shuttle could have launched into polar orbit from Matagorda ?
What is sure is that Space Services Inc. expendables (Percheron, Conestoga) could not.

Possibly...

They would have needed a runway system to land the recovered booster stages on, but there's a lot of land down there... mostly rice fields and cattle pasture...

I just learned about the SSI stuff from this site in the past several days... Interesting stuff...

Later! OL JR :)
 

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Elegant space shuttle orbiter model -- can't remember which contractor proposed this design, or if it was strictly a NASA study...
 

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Very elegant indeed. North American Rockwell, NAR 134-B high cross-range design orbiter circa 1970 by the looks of it. An alternate low cross-range orbiter is shown also.


Referring Jenkins, "Space Shuttle", 1996 edition, pg 89.
 

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Thank you Rhino. Yes, Jenkins Space Shuttle book was likely to have the answer. I should have thought of it...
 

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circle-5 said:
Elegant space shuttle orbiter model -- can't remember which contractor proposed this design, or if it was strictly a NASA study...

Strange!
The orbiter have the "Nasa worm" on the wing.
Is not from early 70s.
But when the "worm" was approved the definitive Shuttle design was not already chosen?
 

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