Sovyetskiy Soyuz (Project 23) class battleship

[Sentinel Chicken]

Does anyone have any schematics of how the Sovietsky Soyuz class battleships were to have looked if completed?

 

[KCX]

Length : 259.6m
Beam : 38.9m
Draught : 10.37m
Maximum Displacement : 65,150t
Propulsion : Steam turbine X 12 (201,000hp), Range 5,960nm at 14kt
Speed : 28kt
Armament : 406mm 50cal. X 9, 152mm 57cal. X 12, 100mm 56cal. AA X 6, 37mm AA X 32, 457mm Torpedo tube X 2
Armor : Belt 420mm, Deck 125mm, Turret 495mm, Bridge 480mm
Complement : 1,664

 

[flateric]

Sentinel Chicken - check your PM a little bit later.

Source
A.M. Vasil'ev Sovetsky Souyz Type Battleships
(c) 2006 Galleya Print St.Petersburg
Graphics by Y.V. Apal'kov

 

[Triton]

Port broadside view of Sovetsky Soyuz-class battleship model.

Artist's impression of the Sovetsky Soyuz-class battleship.

The class would have consisted of four ships:

* Sovietsky Soyuz ("Soviet Union") - laid down 15 July 1938 in Leningrad
* Sovietskaya Ukraina ("Soviet Ukraine") - laid down 28 November 1938 in Nikolayev
* Sovietskaya Rossiya ("Soviet Russia") - laid down late 1939 in Molotovsk
* Sovietskaya Belorussiya ("Soviet Belorussia") - laid down late 1939 in Molotovsk

NOTE: The transliteration of Russian names is not consistent from source to source. Variations of spelling include Sovetskii Soiuz, Sovyetskiy Soyuz, Sovetskiy Soyuz, Sovjetski Sojuz

 

[JFC Fuller]

This one might be a bit niche or common knowledge that I only just picked up on:

Molotovsk (where Sovietskaya Rossiya and Sovietskaya Belorussiya were laid down) is now Sevrodvinsk, it was a town that barely existed until Stalin ordered it into being and had it constructed by slave labour in the mid-late 1930s. It was intended as a shipyard town for the construction of large warships and the centrepiece was a massive building shed, capable of simultaneously building two battleships, that lead out onto its own basin. That shed still exists and is part of the Sevmash infrastructure, it can be seen on Google Earth as the southern most of the two large sheds leading onto the big Sevmash basin, the one directly behind the currently under reconstruction Admiral Nakhimov. For reference see the below links:

Declassified October 1954 CIA report showing the layout of the shipyard.
1944 photo of the shed taken by the US Naval Attache on a boat tour of Molotovsk.

Incidentally, Sovietskaya Ukraina was laid down on the same slipway later used for the soviet carrier programme, culminating in Ul'yanovsk.

 

[able]

 

[alexi]

View attachment 634636

Let's see:
1st - No clue
2nd - Sovietsky Soyuz
3rd - Project 21 battleship
4rd - TsNII-45 small battleship project (1x2 457mm gun variant)
5rd -Stalingrad (Project 82 battlecruiser).
6rd - Mosvka (Project 66 cruiser).
7rd - Black Sea Dreadnought 1917.

 

[able]

View attachment 634636

Let's see:
1st - No clue
2nd - Sovietsky Soyuz
3rd - Project 21 battleship
4rd - TsNII-45 small battleship project (1x2 457mm gun variant)
5rd -Stalingrad (Project 82 battlecruiser).
6rd - Mosvka (Project 66 cruiser).
7rd - Black Sea Dreadnought 1917.

1st is Project 24 with 3-2*457 turrets

 

[alexi]

First time hear Project 24 with 6x18" guns (are those Yamato turret? lol 'cause they sure look like it), i know there's variant with 4x2 mounts but most are 3x3. Also is this model built on actual blueprint or self depicted?

 

[able]

Project 24


The turrent on the model is the same as small battleship

 

[Bottleship]

1st is Project 24 with 3-2*457 turrets

"9 - 458 mm guns in three turrets, like a MK-1 (turret with three 406 mm B-37 guns), with increased armour (3x3)
12 - 180 mm guns in four turrets (4x3)
16 - 130 mm guns in eight turrets (8x2)"
And, idea with quadriple barrel turrets for 130 mm guns (8x4)
"Ammunition - 100 rounds for one 458 mm barrel, 150 round for 180 mm and 200 round for 130 mm".
+
Variant of Project 23bis, 12x406 mm, 12x152 mm, 12x100 mm, 12x37 mm:

 

[World B4]

I'd love to see the sources used for the small battleship, I think I saw something similar once but it had 5 16 inchers instead

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

 

[Grey Havoc]

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/mqmux7

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/mqmux7/soviet_406_mml50_battleship_cannon_on_single/

 

[Antonio]

Project 23 comprehensive evolution on Warship 2021 issue

https://ospreypublishing.com/warship-2021

 

[ptdockyard]

Project 23 comprehensive evolution on Warship 2021 issue

https://ospreypublishing.com/warship-2021

Mine just arrived today. Excellent article.

Lots on the 1936 KB-4 preliminary. That one is my preferred from and aesthetic standpoint.

Dave G

 

[airman]

1st is Project 24 with 3-2*457 turrets

"9 - 458 mm guns in three turrets, like a MK-1 (turret with three 406 mm B-37 guns), with increased armour (3x3)
12 - 180 mm guns in four turrets (4x3)
16 - 130 mm guns in eight turrets (8x2)"
And, idea with quadriple barrel turrets for 130 mm guns (8x4)
"Ammunition - 100 rounds for one 458 mm barrel, 150 round for 180 mm and 200 round for 130 mm".
+
Variant of Project 23bis, 12x406 mm, 12x152 mm, 12x100 mm, 12x37 mm:
View attachment 634777

Same picture visibible on "Stalin's Ocean-Going Fleet " .

 

[airman]

According to plan of 15 august 1937 : there was a proposal for 6 battleship of project23.

 

[NH 17]

Jane's Fighting Ships reported on Sovietskiy Soyuz for a number of years. Given the clandestine nature of Soviet programs during that period, JFS actually had Sovietskiy Soyuz, Project 23, confused with the post-war Stalingrad, Project 82. So, this image has only a shaky connection with reality. However, it is a beautiful rendering that fancifully combines British capital ship design with Swedish missile tech. A Soviet ship, on British lines, with jet age Swedish weapons ("...radio-controlled aerial torpedoes,").

Jane's editor at that time, Raymond V.B. Blackman, was friends with the editor of the Swedish naval almanac, Marinkalendar. That might be the "reliable source" credited with providing the information on the Soviet capital ship building program.

Project 82 was promoted by Stalin, despite reservations about the utility of such a ship, conventional or missile equipped. It was cancelled within 6 weeks of Stalin's death in 1953. Incomplete Stalingrad was expended as a target, while two sisters were broken up on the stocks. Their existence probably justified the completion of Jean Bart, the maintaining of Vanguard and the KGVs, and to a lesser extent, the USN battleships. Once Project 82's cancellation was confirmed in the mid fifties, all battleships were soon relegated to reserve fleets.

 

[Graham1973]

These screenshots all come from a 480p copy of the 1939 Russian film 'Моряки' and show the battleships that come into 'save the day' as the Black Sea fleet faces off against, what from the designs depicted in the models used for the enemy appears to be the Kriegsmarine...

As to the battleships, whatever they are they either have 4 x triple turrets or 4 x quadruple turrets, the pictures are not clear enough to determine much more than that.

 

[NH 17]

These screenshots all come from a 480p copy of the 1939 Russian film 'Моряки' and show the battleships that come into 'save the day' as the Black Sea fleet faces off against, what from the designs depicted in the models used for the enemy appears to be the Kriegsmarine...

As to the battleships, whatever they are they either have 4 x triple turrets or 4 x quadruple turrets, the pictures are not clear enough to determine much more than that.

Apparently, Stalin had a fantasy of fast capital ships steaming from their bases to vanquish the western enemy. Is this film Stalin’s fantasy on screen?

 

[Graham1973]

These screenshots all come from a 480p copy of the 1939 Russian film 'Моряки' and show the battleships that come into 'save the day' as the Black Sea fleet faces off against, what from the designs depicted in the models used for the enemy appears to be the Kriegsmarine...

As to the battleships, whatever they are they either have 4 x triple turrets or 4 x quadruple turrets, the pictures are not clear enough to determine much more than that.

Apparently, Stalin had a fantasy of fast capital ships steaming from their bases to vanquish the western enemy. Is this film Stalin’s fantasy on screen?

Pretty much, the enemy is never identified specifically by name, but two of the models used for their ships look like Bismarks and the German flag of the period appears on one 'enemy' ship in one scene.

 

[Kresta II]

These screenshots all come from a 480p copy of the 1939 Russian film 'Моряки' and show the battleships that come into 'save the day' as the Black Sea fleet faces off against, what from the designs depicted in the models used for the enemy appears to be the Kriegsmarine...

As to the battleships, whatever they are they either have 4 x triple turrets or 4 x quadruple turrets, the pictures are not clear enough to determine much more than that.

Apparently, Stalin had a fantasy of fast capital ships steaming from their bases to vanquish the western enemy. Is this film Stalin’s fantasy on screen?

Pretty much, the enemy is never identified specifically by name, but two of the models used for their ships look like Bismarks and the German flag of the period appears on one 'enemy' ship in one scene.

Some more pictures from this movie:

"Enemies"

1-4: Well-recognized "Panzerschiff" typ;

5-6. Sinking"Bismarck"-class, but with three-gun turrets (!)

 

[Kresta II]

Soviet battleships from this movie:

1-3: "Sovyetskiy Soyuz"-class with four main caliber gun turrets - similar to one of the real variants of the 23-bis project;
4-6: "Stalinskaya Konstitutsiya" - fictional battleship, but possibly based on one of the early versions of preliminary designs of the 1936 battleships - variant I of the TsKBS-1: 76 000 t, 330x39x11.2 m, 140 000 h.p., 26 kn, 4x4 450 mm, 12 130 mm, 16 45 mm,belt 380 mm, decks 50+150 mm

 

[Tzoli]

Kresta do you have any info: sketches or drawings of the looks of the TTZ designed warships of the 1930's-40's era?
I know the details of the TTZ designed battleships of the 1935-37 timeframe but found no drawings to base the superstructure and hull layout of.
I know the KB-4 (Konstruktorskoye Byuro - Design Bureau, 4th Section) style (Like the actual Sovietsky Soyuz) and the TsKBS-1 (Tsentral'noye Konstruktorskoye Byuro Spetssudostroyeniya - Central Design and Special Shipbuilding Bureau, 1st Section) style (Italian esque looks) but not the TTZ (Taktiko Tekhnicheskoye Zadaniye - Tactical and Technical Requirements by the Commander of Chief of the Naval Forces)

 

[Kresta II]

Kresta do you have any info: sketches or drawings of the looks of the TTZ designed warships of the 1930's-40's era?
I know the details of the TTZ designed battleships of the 1935-37 timeframe but found no drawings to base the superstructure and hull layout of.
I know the KB-4 (Konstruktorskoye Byuro - Design Bureau, 4th Section) style (Like the actual Sovietsky Soyuz) and the TsKBS-1 (Tsentral'noye Konstruktorskoye Byuro Spetssudostroyeniya - Central Design and Special Shipbuilding Bureau, 1st Section) style (Italian esque looks) but not the TTZ (Taktiko Tekhnicheskoye Zadaniye - Tactical and Technical Requirements by the Commander of Chief of the Naval Forces)

TTZ usually did not include sketches, but only general instructions on the layout of the ship, its armament, protection, speed, range, etc. Preliminary sketches for the TTZ were developed at the Naval Academy, the NIIVK (Research Institute of Military Shipbuilding) - later the NTK VMF (Scientific and Technical Committee of the Navy) and a number of design bureaus. I have not yet found sketches of the battleships of the NIIVK and NTK VMF, but they should be available in the archives. I expect to post some drawings of small ships (destroyers, minesweepers, gunboats, river monitors) developed by the NTK VMF here soon.

 

[Julio Garay Terrazas]

Complete film Моряки (1939) :

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5krXYhdMoM

 

[dwkr01]

These screenshots all come from a 480p copy of the 1939 Russian film 'Моряки' and show the battleships that come into 'save the day' as the Black Sea fleet faces off against, what from the designs depicted in the models used for the enemy appears to be the Kriegsmarine...

As to the battleships, whatever they are they either have 4 x triple turrets or 4 x quadruple turrets, the pictures are not clear enough to determine much more than that.

Thanks for sharing some fascinating images.

When I scrolled thru the screenshots the first thing that came to mind was the final battle in the movie "In Harm's Way" ...........

 

[Colonial-Marine]

So World of Warships is adding another Project 23 derivative in a future update. Yes, I'm well aware Wargaming makes up a lot of stuff including some designs that are complete fiction but the one thing they might have access to more than the rest of us is details on Soviet projects. This lengthened variant has an additional main battery turret bringing the main battery to a dozen 16" guns and is supposedly based of Project 23bis. The post in the dev blog also references a following effort to improve the Sovetsky Soyuz design called Project 23NU which later (post-war) led to the Project 24 designs.

Does anyone here know any more details about the Project 23bis or Project 23NU? Considering the dimensions of the Project 23 ships actually laid down, the Project 23bis would have been absolutely massive, easily larger than the Montana and Yamato classes. Easily greater than what the Soviet shipbuilding industry could actually hope to build.

 

[00-PureEvil-00]

So World of Warships is adding another Project 23 derivative in a future update. Yes, I'm well aware Wargaming makes up a lot of stuff including some designs that are complete fiction but the one thing they might have access to more than the rest of us is details on Soviet projects. This lengthened variant has an additional main battery turret bringing the main battery to a dozen 16" guns and is supposedly based of Project 23bis. The post in the dev blog also references a following effort to improve the Sovetsky Soyuz design called Project 23NU which later (post-war) led to the Project 24 designs.

Does anyone here know any more details about the Project 23bis or Project 23NU? Considering the dimensions of the Project 23 ships actually laid down, the Project 23bis would have been absolutely massive, easily larger than the Montana and Yamato classes. Easily greater than what the Soviet shipbuilding industry could actually hope to build.

In short:
Project 23bis was the first attempt to improve the original Project 23. The main goals were: add two more 100mm DP twin mounts for a total of six, increase speed to 30 knots, and replace the Pugliese-type TDS with US-type one. The armor scheme was also changed slightly.
The four-turret variant was considered too, but it wasn't developed in details because it turned out to be too large (full displacement was calculated as 74700 metric tons, which is indeed a couple thousand tons more than Yamato or Montana) and didn't meet the speed requirements.


Project 23NU (Новый Улучшенный, "New Improved") was supposed to be a further refinement of 23bis. The main changes were increased AA armament (including eight 100mm DP mounts instead of four or six), sloped armored belt and redesigned TDS. The increased speed was eventually dropped, as it proved to be impossible to reach 30 kts without making the ship way too large.
This design never got very far, because eventually it was realised that the original Project 23 is "beyond saving" and a completely new design is needed. And so Project 24 was born (yes, Project 24 battleship is not exactly a post-war design, the work on it actually started before GPW).