South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

[kaiserbill]

Further to another vehicle earlier in this thread, it's just been announced the Mbombe 6x6 from Paramount looks like it is going into production in Kazakhstan.
So no longer a prototype or secret project from the looks of things.

EDIT: Jordan also has some on order from an announcement last year that I seem to have missed.

http://www.armyrecognition.com/december_2015_global_defense_security_news_uk/paramount_group_of_south_africa_opens_new_armoured_vehicles_factory_in_kazakhstan_10612153.html

 

[curious george]

*off fb again.

Unknown vehicle,timeframe unknown but it seems to carry a civilian reg no, app from the town named Gobabis.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #1454
Terribly Heath Robenson looking affair...

 

[kaiserbill]

Reply to post #1454
Terribly Heath Robenson looking affair...

Looks to be based on the Ford F-100, or F-250, so that probably places it well into the 1970's.
Must have had serious rolling issues, so no wonder it seems to have disappeared without a trace. Maybe it was basic off-the-record lashup?

 

[Herman]

I agree. It looks like something a couple guys with a welding-torch and a hammer put together over a weekend. Maybe during the throes of a binge after to the Boks lost against the All Blacks (again)?

 

[curious george]

* off fb again:

"...here some first pictures of the new CASSPIR NG2000B 6x6 Recovery vehicle. This variant is the latest to the New Generation CASSPIR Family of vehicles based on the new 2000 series. The Recovery systems in the CASSPIR Family include the 4x4 light, 6x6 medium and the 8x8 currently in design phase. Mechem Denel the custodian of CASSPIR NG Series is responsible for the new model CASSPIR manufacturing and sales. The vehicles are in high demand with African Militaries and UN agencies."

 

[kaiserbill]

Things have come full circle since the Wolf based Sterkhans 6x6 recovery vehicle, and the Casspir based Lion 6x6 from years back, as can be found earlier in the thread.
The 8x8 version sounds very interesting.
Nice post CG.

 

[Herman]

Yes. This thing is conceptually similar to the "Sterk Hans" vehicle. Personally I have always found the Sterk Hans particularly attractive and a better solution as an armoured recovery vehicle than the Ratel recovery variant (basically a Ratel with a crane stuck on the back). The 8x8 will be very interesting indeed. When one goes to an 8x8, there are certain crucial design aspects that have to be tackled. It will be interesting to see if the designers go to independent suspension rather than solid axles. I personally hope not. Independent suspension will make the vehicles more complex and significantly more expensive and, to my mind, will deviate from the true character of the CASSPIR, i.e. simple, highly reliable, cheap and easy to fix. The problem is that, if one stays with solid axles in an 8X8, you end up with a wheel base in excess of 5 meters, probably 5.4 meters or more. This will result in a vehicle at least 8 meters in length. In comparison, the Rooikat, for instance, has a wheel base of 5 meters. This is true for almost all of the modern 8x8 armoured personnel carriers.

 

[kaiserbill]

Any further pictures of the WMF Wolf based 6x6 Sterkhans? The only pic I've ever seen is the one in Reply 319 on Page 22 of this thread.
As said then, it was a seminal vehicle, being the first 6x6 monocoque mine protected vehicle. Below is the same pic I found on my PC, but in colour.
For comparison, the second pic has been posted already, and is of the only other Wolf 6x6 I've seen, and was from the WFM website a few years back. Again, only ever seen this pic, and there is almost nothing out there about it. " different vehicles, as can be seen by the wheel spacing and other details.

 

[Herman]

The CASSPIR ARV on the above photo's is quite a large (long) vehicle. It seems to me that an 8x8, using live axles, in a vehicle this size is quite possible. I expect the 8x8 CASSPIR will have an overall length of approximately 8 meters, will have a track of some 2.1 meters and a wheelbase of 1.4x2.6x1.4 meters. Overall weight around 24 tons. The engine will be positioned conventionally at front, as in the standard CASSPIR, and the engine will be an inline six cylinder unit of 350-400hp.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Further to another vehicle earlier in this thread, it's just been announced the Mbombe 6x6 from Paramount looks like it is going into production in Kazakhstan.
So no longer a prototype or secret project from the looks of things.

EDIT: Jordan also has some on order from an announcement last year that I seem to have missed.

http://www.armyrecognition.com/december_2015_global_defense_security_news_uk/paramount_group_of_south_africa_opens_new_armoured_vehicles_factory_in_kazakhstan_10612153.html

More pictures of the Mbombe...

 

[sa_bushwar]

Was browsing the web and came across this picture which I had not sen before of the LZN
I'm not sure who painted the phonetic spelling of the nickname on the front bumper, but this may have been done as a joke when it was being touted to the Middle East?

A LZN specimen can still be seen at N4 Trucks east of Pta - visible from the highway.

 

[panzerskool]

seems some history of LZN is appearing in print in a new book about our nukes. Apparently it started life as the TEL frame and called MLZN (M for Moerse) and the LZN is the by product not the original use.

extract from review of the new book

"The erector-launcher left me wondering. What sort of transporter would HUSKY have used?

The truck was called the Lorry Zonder Naam — “Lorry Without a Name”. Because, you know, it was super secret. South Africa later converted the vehicle to an ammunition resupply vehicle for the G-6 artillery system. There is a picture of the LZN in Clive Wilsworth’s 2010 history of South African artillery, First In, Last Out, showing the vehicle being demonstrated in Iraq for possible export shortly before Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait.

LZN

One can also find images of repurposed LZN vehicles online, working as a fire truck and, I think, in a junk yard, both under the name “Hulk”.

Wilsworth’s book is pretty amazing, not least because he included much of the information I painstakingly collected. He called the missile project HIBISCUS, not HUKSY — but code-name changes were common in South Africa (Video/Melba, Hobo/Cabot). And he, or a careless editor, dropped a zero from HUSKY’s range. (A medium-range ballistic missile has a range of 1,000-3,000 km.) But still, this is an impressive paragraph about South Africa’s bomb program, all the more impressive for appearing as an aside in a book on the country’s artillery systems:

This gave rise to Project Hibiscus—the development of a surface-to-surface missile with a 300-kilometre range capable of delivering either a conventional or nuclear warhead. The project integrated an Israeli missile, which was tested at the new Overberg Test Range on the Cape south coast. At the same time, the SAAF was developing a ‘smart bomb’ to be launched and guided by a Buccaneer, and it was determined that the subsequent H2 bomb was more feasible than a missile system and the whole project was subsequently terminated. Not all efforts were wasted though, as Hibiscus at least contributed to the development of a prototype heavy transporter vehicle nicknamed the MLZN (Moerse Lorrie Zonder Naam—‘huge lorry without name’). This vehicle served as a basis for a G6 ammunition vehicle as it shared a number of parts (engine, transmission, axles and wheels)."

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #1465
I have Whitworth's book. As you mention, it is a very interesting piece of work which casts interesting light on the state of SA's artillery during the seventies, at the start of the Angolan War, the casting about for an effective answer to Angolan/Cuban artillery superiority, the acquisition of the G4 guns and the development of the G5 and G6 systems. The nuclear program and the "Moerse Lorrie Zonder Naam" are also discussed.

What is the state of LZN in the above pictures? Is it just rotting away, is it used for general transport duties or is it for sale?

 

[Herman]

By the way, is the book about the nuclear program available yet?

 

[panzerskool]

Yup juts ordered it to be sent to me in Dubai

 

[panzerskool]

"The Bomb- South Africa's Nuclear Program "by Dr Nic Von Wielligh who was intimately involved in the program. Read the reviews and its far more detailed than the other 6 or 7 books I have on the subject, released last month

 

[kaiserbill]

So, to recap and from what is being intimated, the TEL vehicles were an 8x8 vehicle that lent its components ("engine, transmission, axles and wheels") as the basis for the later vehicle that became the 6x6 LZN G6 artillery support vehicle?

Going by the attachment Graugrun posted earlier on the LZN, it was constructed by the "Special B Vehicles" department of Armscor, which is also the department that was apparently responsible for the TEL vehicles.
The LZN also has an air-cooled diesel of roughly the same power as the G6, both have a 6 speed auto transmission, and both have 21x25 tyres, so one could also say that there appears to be a strong family connection then between the G6, the LZN, and the TEL vehicles components-wise.

It would be interesting to know what then became of the actual TEL vehicles that were known to be constructed, as opposed to the derived LZN.

 

[Herman]

The engines of the G6 and the LZN were identical: a Deutz BF12L413FC, V12, air-cooled diesel of some 19.1 litres, developing around 520hp at 2500 rpm. I don't know about the transmissions but it wouldn't surpirse me if they were identical or very similar (possibly different ratio's). The truck had solid axles while the G6 has independent suspension allround.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Reply to post #1465
I have Whitworth's book. As you mention, it is a very interesting piece of work which casts interesting light on the state of SA's artillery during the seventies, at the start of the Angolan War, the casting about for an effective answer to Angolan/Cuban artillery superiority, the acquisition of the G4 guns and the development of the G5 and G6 systems. The nuclear program and the "Moerse Lorrie Zonder Naam" are also discussed.

What is the state of LZN in the above pictures? Is it just rotting away, is it used for general transport duties or is it for sale?

Think it is for sale as it is next to the large workshop shed where the other "For Sale" vehicles are displayed. It seldom moves and is not used on the premises for transport work as far as I can see. Maybe contact them and make an offer?!

http://www.n4trucks.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=19&Itemid=21&lang=en

 

[Flying Sorcerer]

"The Bomb- South Africa's Nuclear Program "by Dr Nic Von Wielligh who was intimately involved in the program. Read the reviews and its far more detailed than the other 6 or 7 books I have on the subject, released last month

Where did you get it from? Doesn't seem to be available from the usual vendors.

 

[curious george]

*off fb:

Seems to be Ratel prototypes at Walvisbaai circa mid 70's>

 

[kaiserbill]

Nice find!
The first pic seems to show the first Ratel prototype on the left, and the even earlier original Springfield Bussing Buffel on the right, with the order reversed in your second pic. If what we've ascertained on this thread is correct.

It's amazing how when this thread started there were no pics out there of these two vehicles, and very scant info.
As reference, below are, I think, the two vehicles as found on this thread, the only other ones I've ever seen.
The Springfield Bussing Buffel in your pic has a turret, and I wonder if the AML 60 turret was used as a design starting point.
Pic 1 is the (probable) Springfield Bussing Buffel, followed by the very first vehicle that starts to look like a Ratel, albeit with many differences still. The hull in particular seems to have some way to go still before the production type Ratel.


Great find.

EDIT: It is definitely the Springfield Bussing Buffel, as SA Bushwar posted a pic earlier from the front and the name Buffel is painted on it.
I hope you didn't mind me reposting your earlier pic you posted earlier in the thread, SA Bushwar, the 2nd pic below, for reference.

 

[Herman]

In the post #1475, in the top picture, taken from the front of the vehicles, the right hand car is one of the earliest Buffel/Ratel prototypes, maybe the first one. This is the vehicle currently parked at the gate of 1 SAI. It is alo the vehicle posted at the top in post # 1476, taken from the side. This car was originally fitted with an Eland 60 derived turret. The turret was later removed and hand rail fitted around the turret aperture. It was then used to cart VIP's around during maneuvres, etc. The bottom vehicle is a later prototype. It has a driver's position similar to the production vehicle but the side doors are still sloped inwards, as on the earlier prototype, rather than vertical, as on the production Ratels.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post # 1474.

I sent and e-mail to: [email protected] over the weekend. Haven't heard anything yet however.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Nice find!
The first pic seems to show the first Ratel prototype on the left, and the even earlier original Springfield Bussing Buffel on the right, with the order reversed in your second pic. If what we've ascertained on this thread is correct.

It's amazing how when this thread started there were no pics out there of these two vehicles, and very scant info.
As reference, below are, I think, the two vehicles as found on this thread, the only other ones I've ever seen.
The Springfield Bussing Buffel in your pic has a turret, and I wonder if the AML 60 turret was used as a design starting point.
Pic 1 is the (probable) Springfield Bussing Buffel, followed by the very first vehicle that starts to look like a Ratel, albeit with many differences still. The hull in particular seems to have some way to go still before the production type Ratel.


Great find.

EDIT: It is definitely the Springfield Bussing Buffel, as SA Bushwar posted a pic earlier from the front and the name Buffel is painted on it.
I hope you didn't mind me reposting your earlier pic you posted earlier in the thread, SA Bushwar, the 2nd pic below, for reference.

From GE - here they are on display outside the I SAI Gate in Bloemfontein.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Nice find!
The first pic seems to show the first Ratel prototype on the left, and the even earlier original Springfield Bussing Buffel on the right, with the order reversed in your second pic. If what we've ascertained on this thread is correct.

It's amazing how when this thread started there were no pics out there of these two vehicles, and very scant info.
As reference, below are, I think, the two vehicles as found on this thread, the only other ones I've ever seen.
The Springfield Bussing Buffel in your pic has a turret, and I wonder if the AML 60 turret was used as a design starting point.
Pic 1 is the (probable) Springfield Bussing Buffel, followed by the very first vehicle that starts to look like a Ratel, albeit with many differences still. The hull in particular seems to have some way to go still before the production type Ratel.


Great find.

EDIT: It is definitely the Springfield Bussing Buffel, as SA Bushwar posted a pic earlier from the front and the name Buffel is painted on it.
I hope you didn't mind me reposting your earlier pic you posted earlier in the thread, SA Bushwar, the 2nd pic below, for reference.

From GE - here they are on display outside the I SAI Gate in Bloemfontein.

From closer up...

 

[sa_bushwar]

Recently there has been a strange development between LIW and 4VRP Zwartkops Pretoria. It looks like a new museum being set up. At least 5 Mirage 3/Cheetah's are visible, an Impala and many other indistinguishable objects. Maybe some prototype funnies? Anybody with more gen? (See dates on photos below) Coords also visible.

 

[kaiserbill]

Thanks for those pics SABushwar.
So that is definitely the Springfield Bussing Buffel, as can be seen on the painted name on the hull, which won the original competition that led to the Ratel, and what appears to be the development thereof which one can say is the very first Ratel type. They are the same two vehicles being tested in CG's two photos.

No idea what they are doing in your last set of photos, but it is a fair amount of activity over the space of 3 months. I also wonder what that is. Is that a Seeker UAV next to the Impala in the last pic perhaps? Difficult to say....

 

[panzerskool]

"The Bomb- South Africa's Nuclear Program "by Dr Nic Von Wielligh who was intimately involved in the program. Read the reviews and its far more detailed than the other 6 or 7 books I have on the subject, released last month

Where did you get it from? Doesn't seem to be available from the usual vendors.

i ordered from the publishers and they couriered it to me in Dubai

 

[panzerskool]

Reply to post # 1474.

I sent and e-mail to: [email protected] over the weekend. Haven't heard anything yet however.

Theresa Papenfus
Litera Publikasies / Litera Publications
Email: [email protected]

 

[panzerskool]

So, to recap and from what is being intimated, the TEL vehicles were an 8x8 vehicle that lent its components ("engine, transmission, axles and wheels") as the basis for the later vehicle that became the 6x6 LZN G6 artillery support vehicle?

Going by the attachment Graugrun posted earlier on the LZN, it was constructed by the "Special B Vehicles" department of Armscor, which is also the department that was apparently responsible for the TEL vehicles.
The LZN also has an air-cooled diesel of roughly the same power as the G6, both have a 6 speed auto transmission, and both have 21x25 tyres, so one could also say that there appears to be a strong family connection then between the G6, the LZN, and the TEL vehicles components-wise.

It would be interesting to know what then became of the actual TEL vehicles that were known to be constructed, as opposed to the derived LZN.

I Have been looking for info on the SA TELs for many years and nothing seems to have emerged yet ( a lot like the Israeli TELs where no photos exist). Like Carver and other SA secret projects its such a pity that 25 years after a lot of this was shut down or disbanded nothing has come to light . The 8x8 shown in Pieres book they had the power could solve this. We seem to have had a number of TELs and I would suspect that they along with their cargo would have been sent back to Israel when FW started winding down the program.

 

[Flying Sorcerer]

Reply to post # 1474.

I sent and e-mail to: [email protected] over the weekend. Haven't heard anything yet however.

Theresa Papenfus
Litera Publikasies / Litera Publications
Email: [email protected]

Thanks. I emailed her too.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I Have been looking for info on the SA TELs for many years and nothing seems to have emerged yet ( a lot like the Israeli TELs where no photos exist).

Because they are one and the same. First they were SADF TELs then and now they are IDF TELs.

 

[panzerskool]

I Have been looking for info on the SA TELs for many years and nothing seems to have emerged yet ( a lot like the Israeli TELs where no photos exist).

Because they are one and the same. First they were SADF TELs then and now they are IDF TELs.

im not 100% sure of that. IDF had mobile launchers for the Jericho project before SA embarked on same . Numerous reference points to these TELs and Missiles coming to SA as a stop Gap till the SA versions were ready and then these IDF ones going back. I would assume that the 8x8 LZN/TEL was an indigenous version built by special B vehicles and that when the time came these were also shipped to the IDF to keep them out of commie hands. the 8x8 LZN/TEL would have had many SA modifications to them to suit local conditions and I would imagine that the SA industrial military machine was probably superior to the IDF one at this stage (maybe bigger but not technically superior) as a result dumb technology probably would have been supplied by SA (trucks, ammunition , TEL's?) while smart tech (UFV, Gabriel missiles, strike credit , Galil rifles etc ) would go the other way.
IDF TELs, were already a generation older than the SA ones (early 70s vs late 80s technology) and possibly the SA ones would have replaced the IDF ones as I have heard that more than a handful of TEL,s were built in SA which points to a possible export of said TEL,s along with the SA TEL,s sold/donated .

Again amazing that after all this time and no dispute about the fact that a mobile weapons were in service , nothing has emerged. I wonder when all the secrets will eventually get out

 

[curious george]

The secrets prob wont come out for a while, not from official sources anyways -ie the regime is too busy rewritting and reinventing history to serve their narrative.

Quite a fair whack of the pics here as an example are emerging due to people ignoring orders re cameras,etc back in the day,and the current late boom in social media access.locally.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

im not 100% sure of that. IDF had mobile launchers for the Jericho project before SA embarked on same .

Sure. But in one of the sources about the LZN being the RSA TEL it expressly mentions that all MLZN 8x8 TELs were shipped off to an "ally" (ie Israel) during the South African decommissioning program. Where they no doubt replaced those earlier, smaller, less mobile TELs and remain to this date under a significant veil of security. It would also explain why there is nothing to see about the TEL during SADF service. Because everything (publications, training gear, etc) would have been packed up and shipped to Israel. And walking about with your Polaroid taking happy snaps is something you DON'T do when in the ballistic missile unit.

 

[sa_bushwar]

*off f/book.

Take another careful look at this MAN 8x8. It is not the artillery gun tractor, but has flat bed seemingly filled with cargo. Maybe it was part of testing the concept. As apparently only one was built, it seems to have gone through some evolution.

 

[curious george]

*off f/book.

Take another careful look at this MAN 8x8. It is not the artillery gun tractor, but has flat bed seemingly filled with cargo. Maybe it was part of testing the concept. As apparently only one was built, it seems to have gone through some evolution.

post # 1315

 

[kaiserbill]

im not 100% sure of that. IDF had mobile launchers for the Jericho project before SA embarked on same .

Sure. But in one of the sources about the LZN being the RSA TEL it expressly mentions that all MLZN 8x8 TELs were shipped off to an "ally" (ie Israel) during the South African decommissioning program. Where they no doubt replaced those earlier, smaller, less mobile TELs and remain to this date under a significant veil of security. It would also explain why there is nothing to see about the TEL during SADF service. Because everything (publications, training gear, etc) would have been packed up and shipped to Israel. And walking about with your Polaroid taking happy snaps is something you DON'T do when in the ballistic missile unit.

This would certainly explain why we only have general descriptions left of these vehicles, as opposed to hard pics and info.
I had searched long and hard for Israeli self propelled TEL's whilst looking into South African TEL's, following the rumour, with the rather predictable result of finding absolutely nothing out there in the public domain.