South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

[kaiserbill]

Nice pics SA Bushwar.


It would have been good if some had been ordered, but then, as has been intimated in this thread, there ws always a whiff around the way the project to replace the Ratel was handled and the Patria selected, with sudden decisions and selections being made.
It mirrored the entire arms deal that we know has resulted in and was mired in controversy (still ongoing), investigations, bribes, and jailings...


The RG-41 more closely mirrored the very successful Ratel concept, in that commercial components were used to keep costs down. Sometimes there really is no reason to goldplate things, or reinvent the wheel...
If there is no real compromise, but it enables the longevity and value seen from the Ratel, well then...


I have seen pics of the RG-41 doing tests or trials in the Middle East, which wouldn't be necessary for environmental testing as South Africa has the Kalahari desert and Northern Cape region to do that sort of thing.
Why it was there I have no idea.


Also, is there any lineage to any of the previous Hoefyster concepts?

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #1332:
It would have been a superior choice to the very expensive, very sophisticated Patria vehice. Unfortunately it did not exist at the time the convoluted selection process played off. But it would probably not have been selected even if it was available as has been suggested by another poster because "er hangt een geurtje rond het selectieprocess" (there hangs a bad smell around the selection procedure). A lot of knoweldgeable people feel that uprated, modified Ratels, possibly to the iKlwa (sp?) configuration, would have been an infinitely cheaper and wiser choice for SA, rather than the Badger.

 

[Rickshaw]

I have seen pics of the RG-41 doing tests or trials in the Middle East, which wouldn't be necessary for environmental testing as South Africa has the Kalahari desert and Northern Cape region to do that sort of thing.
Why it was there I have no idea.

Sales?

 

[curious george]

*vehicles discussed previously,pics from f/book.

 

[sa_bushwar]

From www: Recently spotted on a highway. 35mm AA?; and the 2-wheel gun?

 

[curious george]

Std 35mm on 4 wheels and ZU-23 on 2wheels,looks like radar unit ahead in convoy of Samil towing the ex-Soviet gun.

 

[panzerskool]

hope they have e tags

 

[sa_bushwar]

Ratel gets another lease on life with this conversion by OTT. http://www.ott.co.za/

Seen at AAD 2014.

"Five-o" Browning turret.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Denel "Scout" with 81mm mortar. Don't think it ever went into production.

And to proof it is not only the Chinese copying from everyone, here is an early RG 32 Scout version with a copy of the Chinese Type 63 MRL mounted on the back. In SA it was developed by Mechcem and called the RO 107. Again I suspect this version of the Scout never went into production.

RO 107 on the concept Mamba Sabre vehicle

 

[sa_bushwar]

Note the unusual MG shield on the Casspir

 

[curious george]

Mostly seen on later 101bn vehicles.

 

[Herman]

Finally received my copy of surviving the ride. Very nice book! Certainly worth getting. Lots if interesting photo's and a some of the info in the book addresses questions we have had and speculated about in this forum, for instance the various vehicles of project REMARK. Not a word however about the mystery 8x8 wreck, presumably Sprinkaan, at the School of Armour Museum, inBloemfontein.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Finally received my copy of surviving the ride. Very nice book! Certainly worth getting. Lots if interesting photo's and a some of the info in the book addresses questions we have had and speculated about in this forum, for instance the various vehicles of project REMARK. Not a word however about the mystery 8x8 wreck, presumably Sprinkaan, at the School of Armour Museum, inBloemfontein.

Here is a walk around of the "Springkaan"? (Grasshopper) at the Armour Museum in Bloemfontein. Noticeable are the Magirus Deutz axles, (and probably engine). It would have been built in the 70's (or early 80's?) when the SADF still made use of 6x6 Magirus Deutz trucks as gun tractors for the 140mm (5.5') guns, and as a recovery vehicle. Exhaust fumes is a problem for occupants in front engined vehicles, so in this prototype a crude steel pipe was used to extend the exhaust towards the back. Was it part of project Pampoen (Ratel development), or project Velskoen (Ratel replacement)?

 

[curious george]

What turret would they have used,also the French ones like in what eventually became the Ratel?

 

[curious george]

*Posted on fb by a wellknown Koevoet guy and author.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #1345.


The engine was a Detroit diesel. As your photo's show, the Magirus axles were converted to coil spring suspension. The vehicle was almost certainly a prototype in the development of the Ratel, and not for a Ratel replacement. If the vehicle was developed later, it would have had either Samil axles or, more likely, MAN (Ratel) axles and a modern, ADE four-stroke diesel would have been used rather than the US two-stroke Detroit unit.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #1346


The turret ring was 1.5 meters. That would have been suitable for any of the Eland/Ratel turrets.

 

[Herman]

Interesting photo in the Wiki of the "Ordnance QF 17 pounder". The 77mm HV gun as used in the Comet tank and in the prototypes leading up to the Rooikat is also discussed in this Wiki on the 17-pounder. There is a nice photo, which I have not seen before, of the Saracen-based prototype armoured car sporting this gun.

 

[Herman]

I was looking through previous pages of this forum when I saw the photo posted by Curious George on page 42, post #619. The vehicle is a Ratel prototype and it is currently residing as a gate guard at 1SAI, in Bloemfontein. A couple of years ago, I was visiting family in Bloem and wanted to take photo's of the thing but the guard at the gate didn't want me to. He did take me into the camp however to go and ask the colonel if I could take pictures. Unfortunately, the colonel was at lunch and could not be disturbed! I did see several interesting vehicles inside the camp however, amongst them the Brazilian Urutu APC that was also trialled during the development of the Ratel.


The Ratel prototype pictured has had its turret removed and a ring fitted around the turret opening. This served as a hand-hold for dignitaries being carted around. I remember a short news film, many, many years ago, of PW Botha and friends being driven around in it during a large military excersise.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Here is an excellent photo album of some boetie's trip to the SA Armour Museum. Includes a quite few great photos of various prototypes (including the 6x6 Krokadil in the background of a Rooikat joyride photo), Nambib SADF T-55 (named "Russian Romance") and various Oilfant engine bay mods, training devices, etc. Well worth a thorough scroll through:


http://s1229.photobucket.com/user/Polosie87/library/School%20Of%20Armour%20Armour%20Museum%202014?sort=6&page=1

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I did see several interesting vehicles inside the camp however, amongst them the Brazilian Urutu APC that was also trialled during the development of the Ratel.

I thought the Brazilians even under their Military Dictatorship were quite anti RSA/Apartheid. Maybe it could have been an Urutu captured from Angola or Mozambique? Lusophone connection and all that.

 

[sa_bushwar]

I did see several interesting vehicles inside the camp however, amongst them the Brazilian Urutu APC that was also trialled during the development of the Ratel.

I thought the Brazilians even under their Military Dictatorship were quite anti RSA/Apartheid. Maybe it could have been an Urutu captured from Angola or Mozambique? Lusophone connection and all that.

Here is the Urutu in question. From its general pristine condition - no bundu bashing - or battle damage, I assume it was specifically acquired for the Ratel trials. From where and through which channels I do not know.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Here is the Urutu in question. From its general pristine condition - no bundu bashing - or battle damage, I assume it was specifically acquired for the Ratel trials. From where and through which channels I do not know.

It does look that way. A closer look at Brazilian history shows that half way through the dictatorship around 1972-74 they changed their leadership and moved to a less right wing international position. Before this during the mid to late 1960s they were far more conservative. Since the EE-11 was developed in 1970-74 it is likely they could have been supplied before Brazil closed down relations with the RSA.

 

[Herman]

The Urutu was apparently a good design; design-wise probably superior to the Ratel. It used independent front suspension, something which was generally only seen 10-15 years later on wheeled APC's, as well as a type of indepentent suspension at the back, the patented Engesa walking beam setup. The engine was at the front, next to the driver. This became more or less the standard for both wheeled and tracked APC's, rather than the engine at the back, which precludes a large back door, such as in the Ratel. The Ratel is substantially bigger though and possibly more robust, with its beam axles.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Thinking back to the 1970's and 80's and the difficulty experienced with navigation in the Operational areas of the Border war, it is worthwhile mentioning a South African invention that changed the world in terms of accurate long distance point to point real time measurement; the Tellurometer. The Border War operational area was as flat as a table top for 100's of kilometers, featureless, dense scarcely populated bush and deep sandy soil that played havoc with a magnetic compass. Navigation for ground forces was along known trails or tracks, or compass bearing and distance on 1:50 000 outdated topographical maps or orthophoto maps. Then came the Tellurometer which made it possible to establsh and register coordinated survey beacons in the operational area, and to triangulate the co-ordinates of targets for the artillery and other forces.

Below is a brief history of the Tellurometer and pictures of the use of a prototype by the SADF in the Caprivi Strip in 1979.

 

[Hot Breath]

I am unsure how this device would help with actual navigation. Going by the Wikipedia article, it merely allows measurement of distance from the transmitter to the receiver more accurately. It doesn't allow bearing to be determined accurately. I'm also unsure how "deep, sandy soils" interfere with compass measurements of bearing. Can you please explain a little better?

 

[TomS]

By measuring distance from two or more known locations, you can derive your current location. This is the same principle used by land-based navigational aids like Loran and Omega, and even satellite navigation systems like Transit and GPS.

I am no expert in southern African geology and geography, but different soil characteristics can have a small and subtle impact on local magnetic variation. That can translate into navigational errors when travelling long distances without accurate maps and good landmarks to update your dead reckoning fix.

 

[sa_bushwar]

By measuring distance from two or more known locations, you can derive your current location. This is the same principle used by land-based navigational aids like Loran and Omega, and even satellite navigation systems like Transit and GPS.

I am no expert in southern African geology and geography, but different soil characteristics can have a small and subtle impact on local magnetic variation. That can translate into navigational errors when traveling long distances without accurate maps and good landmarks to update your dead reckoning fix.

To add to the comments above:

Before additional permanent survey beacons with known co-ordinates for military purposes were established with the help of the tellurometer, there were only a few Land Surveyor beacons used for early mapping. These were often not visible with direct line of sight and were few and far in between. It was therefor very difficult to plot your own position accurately on a map, or to register the co-ordinates of a target. The tellurometer made surveying, determining distance and bearing much quicker and easier.

The geology of the region (deep sandy soil) required vehicles to often stick to known tracks to avoid getting lost or getting bogged down in the shonas (shallow depressions filled with rain water during the rainy season) during the rainy season, hence making navigation difficult on top of the flat featureless terrain and bush. The geology of the substrata (sand or whatever formations below it, made the magnetic compass inaccurate in certain areas, which I can only ascribe to magnetic interference.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

By measuring distance from two or more known locations, you can derive your current location.

You don't need to measure distance just bearing from two known points. Using a compass and a map you can plot your position using noticeable terrain features like hill or mountain tops (bends in rivers, road intersections, buildings, etc can be used as well). You orientate the map to ground and correlate your selected terrain features (between the map and the ground) and then plot your bearings to the points with a compass and then draw reverse bearings (+180 degrees) on the map. Where these two lines intersect is your location. But if you are in featureless terrain like deserts or the Owambo bush you don't have any convenient hills or noticeable terrain features to plot. So the directional beacons provide a substitute. You use the appropriate receiver to generate bearings to the two beacons and then plot on a map the reverse bearings to triangulate your own position. This is how most off-board navigation systems from Gee to GPS work.

 

[TomS]

Of course you can do that -- it's how basic land navigation (orienteering) works.


But it's not how most modern electronic navigation systems work. Starting with Gee through Loran-C, Omega, and GPS, most common navigational aids work by measuring the distance from the receiver to multiple transmitters. They do this by calculating the time of flight or time difference of arrival of radio signals from transmitters at known locations (or in known orbits for Satnav/GPS). Each TDOA essentially locates the receiver on an arc of known distance from a given receiver. Where these TDOA arcs intersect is the location of the receiver. In early systems (Gee, early Loran and Omega, etc.), you did that manually -- charts actually had lines of TDOAs printed on them and you'd plot your position by finding the TDOA lines reported by your receiver and seeing where they intersected. Later receivers could do the plotting for you and return an actual Lat-Lon coordinate. The receivers do not actually know the bearing to any transmitter -- your classic Loran antenna, for example, is a simple non-directional whip.


Tellurometers also work by precisely measuring distances between transmitter and receiver. Surveyors use them to create precise baselines for subsequent triangulation measurements that locate landmarks. I'm not sure how the South Africans used them for land navigation -- possibly they did use them to place beacons that were used to provide bearings for the units actually doing the navigation. But if so, the system measuring the bearing to the beacon wouldn't be a tellurometer.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Of course you can do that -- it's how basic land navigation (orienteering) works.


But it's not how most modern electronic navigation systems work. Starting with Gee through Loran-C, Omega, and GPS, most common navigational aids work by measuring the distance from the receiver to multiple transmitters. They do this by calculating the time of flight or time difference of arrival of radio signals from transmitters at known locations (or in known orbits for Satnav/GPS). Each TDOA essentially locates the receiver on an arc of known distance from a given receiver. Where these TDOA arcs intersect is the location of the receiver. In early systems (Gee, early Loran and Omega, etc.), you did that manually -- charts actually had lines of TDOAs printed on them and you'd plot your position by finding the TDOA lines reported by your receiver and seeing where they intersected. Later receivers could do the plotting for you and return an actual Lat-Lon coordinate. The receivers do not actually know the bearing to any transmitter -- your classic Loran antenna, for example, is a simple non-directional whip.


Tellurometers also work by precisely measuring distances between transmitter and receiver. Surveyors use them to create precise baselines for subsequent triangulation measurements that locate landmarks. I'm not sure how the South Africans used them for land navigation -- possibly they did use them to place beacons that were used to provide bearings for the units actually doing the navigation. But if so, the system measuring the bearing to the beacon wouldn't be a tellurometer.

Yes, it was used to place navigational beacons with known coordinates from which navigation could be done.

 

[curious george]

*off f/book

*I came across a gent who may solve a few riddles for us and sent him a link to this forum in the hope that he will join.

 

[kaiserbill]

Looking forward to him hopefully joining, CG.

 

[Dinges]

Alliant Techsystems[/url]'s 25mm M242 Bushmaster mounted in a tactical response turret, the TRT-25 remote weapon station (RWS).

Just a heads-up. The turret in the pics is not the TRT-25 , but the TRT-R30MK and can be identified by the 2A42 30mm cannon's square muzzle device , where the TRT-25 is round and the barrel is sometimes fluted

 

[kaiserbill]

The Rooikat thread got me thinking about the TTD prototype again.


Do we know what engine it used?


The info out there from open sources on the net, and some of the literature Graugrun posted up, state it was powered by:

an unspecified turbocharged diesel engine, developing 1 250 hp.

and

a V-8 twin turbo charged inter-cooled diesel, delivering 920 kW @ 2100 rpm.

and

A water-cooled V-8 diesel with a swept volume of 31,7 litres which delivers 920kW ( 1233hp) at 2100rpm. This results in a power/weight ratio of 21,2 hp/t and leads to a maximum speed of 71km/h and an acceleration from rest to 30km/h in 5 seconds, implying a high degree of agility.
To achieve its high output, the engine is fitted with two turbochargers and air-to-water intercooling. It is also provided with a cooling system with two hydraulically driven mixed-flow fans. Unlike many other tank engines, it can deliver full power continuously up to an ambient temperature of 48c degrees celcius, above which its management system reduces the output to protect it from damage. Engine exhaust gases are mixed with the cooling air to reduce the thermal signature of the TTD....

The TTD is powered by a twin-turbo intercooled V-8 diesel that delivers its maximum power of 1,230 hp at 2,100 rpm and maximum torque at 1,500 rpm which gives the TTD a power-to-weight ratio of 21.1 hp/t with acceleration of 0 to 30 km/h in 5.1 seconds.
An emergency hydraulic starting system is incorporated to start the engine in the event of an electrical power or starter motor failure.
Cooling is provided by a water-to-air system which is split for cooling charge air to the intake manifold. The engine can deliver full power continuously up to an ambient temperature of 48ºC, after which the power pack management system derates the power delivery to protect the engine. The exhaust gases are mixed with cooling air to reduce the infrared signature of the tank.
The engine drives through an automatic gearbox with four forward and two reverse gears. The final drives incorporate a planetary gear reduction with an offset configuration. They are capable of handling a 1,500 hp power pack should additional power be needed later. The steering system allows neutral turns and is infinitely variable for large radius turns and fixed for tighter turns.

Do we know what powerpack this is?
The Olifants were powered by air cooled diesels ranging from 750 hp in the Mk1, 900hp in the Mk1b, to 1050hp in the Mk2.
This seems to say the TTD engine is water cooled, but via water-to-air cooling.

The only similar engine with regards to power, off the top of my head, is the MTU V8 as used in the Korean K1 Type 88 MBT, which apparently is a compact version of the original diesel as fitted to the Leopard 2.
I wonder if this is the engine used, in modified form, if the open source literature is correct?

 

[Rickshaw]

Your photos look rather different to the photos available elsewhere on the web:

[Source]

 

[kaiserbill]

Your photos look rather different to the photos available elsewhere on the web:

I went through my computer for pics to attempt to show the rear and the engine deck.

 

[Rickshaw]

Your photos look rather different to the photos available elsewhere on the web:

I went through my computer for pics to attempt to show the rear and the engine deck.

Fair enough. It just appears that the vehicle in your pictures looks wider and longer than the pictures I posted. Either yours or mine are distorted or the vehicle underwent a hull change/turret change at some point.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

There is a lot of info in the earlier pages of this thread about the powerpacks of the South African Centurions and TTD. Skokian, Semel and Olifant (Centurions) were powered by 1950s built Continental air cooled tank engines ex M48 sold surplus in the USA as agricultural equipment. Firstly fuel injected petrol engines (AVI-1790), then diesels (AVDS-1790) and then local built turbocharged (AVCR-1790) using (allegedly) plans acquired from Israel. The TTD's engine has never been officially unveiled because it is most likely a sanction buster. Based on data released about its performance it is pretty obvious it is an MTU (ex Maybach) MB838 V-10 engine (same as the Leopard 1). Calling it a V-8 would be a rather simple way of confusing the source of origin and its something that one can't really tell from observation outside the vehicle. Apart from the number of cylinders all the other figures published about the engine align with that of the MB838. The West Germans provided a lot of military technology assistance to RSA during the last 20 years of Apartheid.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Either yours or mine are distorted or the vehicle underwent a hull change/turret change at some point.

None of the above. The only difference in the pictures is perspective. Looking downwards pictures of the rear tend to look different to looking upwards pictures of the front.