South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

[kaiserbill]

And a second photo of the ZA-35 turret on the T-72 chassis has emerged, this time in colour.


Photo from facebook.


EDIT: There was some discussion there that an informed source who had a look over an exhibition in China reckons the Chinese 35mm AA gun, as mounted on a particular chassis there, is actually Denels 35mm gun.

 

[CostasTT]

Looks like the ZA-35 turret as fitted to a T-72 chassis to me. A Chinese tank chassis would have different skirts and tracks.

 

[kaiserbill]

Looks like the ZA-35 turret as fitted to a T-72 chassis to me. A Chinese tank chassis would have different skirts and tracks.

Sorry Costa, perhaps we have crossed wires.


The picture above is indeed the ZA-35 turret as fitted to a T-72 chassis.
The pic was taken somewhere in South Africa.


Originally, we had the Rooikat ZA-35 displayed, and mention was made all the way back when the project was on the go that it could also be fitted to the T-72 tank chassis, as well as the G-6 chassis.
But until recently, there were no pictures of either, just a drawing or two of the turret on the T-72 chassis.
We now know, from these recent pics, that the gun turret was indeed fitted to a T-72 chassis, and that the missile turret was fitted to a G-6 chassis.


I just added a note saying that in the discussion where the picture was posted on facebook, mention was made that it was reported that at least one of the Chinese SP AA guns was the Denel 35mm (as found in the ZA-35 turret and the naval DPG 35mm) as opposed to the vanilla Oerlikon 35mm that one would expect, although I cannot personally vouch for that obviously.

 

[CostasTT]

I just added a note saying that in the discussion where the picture was posted on facebook, mention was made that it was reported that at least one of the Chinese SP AA guns was the Denel 35mm (as found in the ZA-35 turret and the naval DPG 35mm) as opposed to the vanilla Oerlikon 35mm that one would expect, although I cannot personally vouch for that obviously.

And I think I know which one they were referring to. As the only current tracked 35mm AA SP in China is the PGZ-07, it's the obvious candidate. Production vehicles have velocity measurement coils on the muzzles, but check out the prototype. The only apparent difference is the use of a cage-type flash eliminator as opposed to the GA 35's pepperpot type. The wheeled CS/SA1 uses their local variant of the Oerlikon GDF series, so it won't be considered.

 

[xiaofan]

Actually there is one more Chinese tracked 35mm SP AA gun. However this system is very unlikely to show up on an exhibition as far as I know it is a proof concept protoype. Also it is very unlikely to have Denel 35mm gun.

 

[sa_bushwar]

From the www; a Magirus 6x6 armoured recovery truck, circa 1981 - Ops Protea? Predating the SAMIL/Kwevoel series.

 

[curious george]

*off f/book

 

[curious george]

* off f/book

 

[kaiserbill]

I've been reading a bit about something called World Conqueror Special Mobility System by EWT.


Mechanology Design Bureau (MDB), as seen and mentioned earlier in the thread a couple of times, rebranded themselves as Emerging World Technologies (EWT).


The below is a description from 8 years ago:

Pride of place in the EWT pantheon, however, goes to the World Conqueror Special Mobility System series of commercial and military, tracked and wheeled, armoured and unarmoured vehicles. Although still awaiting a launch customer, the World Conqueror represents a comprehensive approach to standardisation. Variants that share common drive train and power-pack, among other shared components, include a tracked light tank, a 4x4 or 6x6 infantry fighting vehicle, a 6x6 or 4x4 armoured logistics platform, a 4x4 or 6x6 armoured personnel carrier, and a 4x2 commercial logistics platform.
The hull structure for all vehicles in the series is designed for effortless, cost effective assembly, without the need for complex jigs and sophisticated machinery. Since the assembly concepts for all the vehicles in the system are identical, it is conceivable that all vehicles can be built using a single assembly line. The laser-cut armoured steel plates can be supplied in kit form, which consists of the hull plates already fitted with the necessary weld elements, ready for construction of the hull. The hull plates for the vehicles are designed to be self-jigging by means of the tongue-and-groove method......the technique ensures that the rear wall, side wall, and roof are all perpendicular to each other.

Quite an intriguing description.
It seems that not only was a family of vehicles designed, but that it appears that an entire production process was designed too.

One wonders whether this method has quietly been implemented somewhere...

Does anyone know anything more?

 

[Grey Havoc]

This looks like it's directly related, though it was now (2010) referred to as the Virleo MATHS – Modular All-Terrain Hybrid System:

http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/china-looks-into-buying-modular-vehicle-platform-from-sa-group-2010-04-12

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?177609-China-looks-into-buying-modular-vehicle-platform-from-SA-group


Later in the same year: http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/automotive-defence-2010-07-23/

 

[kaiserbill]

Thanks Grey Havoc....


That is some pretty neat detective work from you.


Google turned up nothing for me.

 

[xiaofan]

This looks like it's directly related, though it was now (2010) referred to as the Virleo MATHS – Modular All-Terrain Hybrid System:

http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/china-looks-into-buying-modular-vehicle-platform-from-sa-group-2010-04-12

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?177609-China-looks-into-buying-modular-vehicle-platform-from-SA-group


Later in the same year: http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/automotive-defence-2010-07-23/

From the SA company link it looks like these vehicles are order by a local municipal government (by the way the city mentioned in article is local in northeast part of China and it is not a big city).

Also looks like Chinese militatry is not overly enthusiasm about this, this is mainly due to that several major Chinese automobile manufacturers are actively research and develop similar system,.

If Chinese militatry do interested in these vehicles we will see the picture(s) for domestic variant all over the place, as far as I know there is no picture for domestic variant has emerged, not olny that there is hardly any information about this deal at all and no picture for SA vehicles in China has emerged.

 

[sa_bushwar]

This looks like it's directly related, though it was now (2010) referred to as the Virleo MATHS – Modular All-Terrain Hybrid System:

http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/china-looks-into-buying-modular-vehicle-platform-from-sa-group-2010-04-12

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?177609-China-looks-into-buying-modular-vehicle-platform-from-SA-group


Later in the same year: http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/automotive-defence-2010-07-23/

From the SA company link it looks like these vehicles are order by a local municipal government (by the way the city mentioned in article is local in northeast part of China and it is not a big city).

Also looks like Chinese military is not overly enthusiasm about this, this is mainly due to that several major automobile manufacturers are actively research and develop similar system,.

If Chinese military do interested in these vehicles we will see the picture(s) for domestic variant all over the place, as far as I know there is no picture for domestic variant has emerged, not only that there is hardly any information about this deal at all and no picture for SA vehicles in China has emerged.

There is another Chinese connection. At African Aviation and Defence Expo 2014 (AAD 2014) I spoke to the owner/developer of the Caprovi MRV; and he told me that after struggling to get manufacturing going in SA, he agreed with a Chinese firm to build the Caprivi in China. The Caprivi is a South African development now being built in China, not the other way around as some websites claim.

It is claimed to have been acquired by Nigeria for the fight against Boko Haram.

http://mobilelandsystems.net/company-profile/

http://www.mobilelandsystems.net/CAPTIVI_MK1.pdf

https://beegeagle.wordpress.com/2014/05/24/mine-tests-conducted-on-the-caprivi-mk-1bigfoot-mrap-shows-real-strength/

http://the-eyeontheworld.blogspot.com/2014/05/new-chinese-mrap-seen-in-nigerian-army.html

 

[xiaofan]

This looks like it's directly related, though it was now (2010) referred to as the Virleo MATHS – Modular All-Terrain Hybrid System:

http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/china-looks-into-buying-modular-vehicle-platform-from-sa-group-2010-04-12

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?177609-China-looks-into-buying-modular-vehicle-platform-from-SA-group


Later in the same year: http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/automotive-defence-2010-07-23/

From the SA company link it looks like these vehicles are order by a local municipal government (by the way the city mentioned in article is local in northeast part of China and it is not a big city).

Also looks like Chinese military is not overly enthusiasm about this, this is mainly due to that several major automobile manufacturers are actively research and develop similar system,.

If Chinese military do interested in these vehicles we will see the picture(s) for domestic variant all over the place, as far as I know there is no picture for domestic variant has emerged, not only that there is hardly any information about this deal at all and no picture for SA vehicles in China has emerged.

There is another Chinese connection. At African Aviation and Defence Expo 2014 (AAD 2014) I spoke to the owner/developer of the Caprovi MRV; and he told me that after struggling to get manufacturing going in SA, he agreed with a Chinese firm to build the Caprivi in China. The Caprivi is a South African development now being built in China, not the other way around as some websites claim.

It is claimed to have been acquired by Nigeria for the fight against Boko Haram.

http://mobilelandsystems.net/company-profile/

http://www.mobilelandsystems.net/CAPTIVI_MK1.pdf

https://beegeagle.wordpress.com/2014/05/24/mine-tests-conducted-on-the-caprivi-mk-1bigfoot-mrap-shows-real-strength/

http://the-eyeontheworld.blogspot.com/2014/05/new-chinese-mrap-seen-in-nigerian-army.html

Pictures for these vehicles are circulating on Chinese web for sometime now, and some Chinese source mentaion that SA company has supply at least two prototypes.

Also as far I know POLY is take over the marketing, they even show the vehicle on some of their housing project marketing event.

First four pictures are reportly SA prototype on road testing in China.

Fifth,sixth and seventh are Chinese prototype during road testing.

last three are POLY vehicle on housing project marketing event.

All pictures are come from Chiese web source.

 

[curious george]

*off f/book.

 

[Hot Breath]

Looks like the base for a forklift or weapons' handling platform or something like that, rather than a combat vehicle.

 

[kaiserbill]

A long unobstructed load bed...


Weird looking thing.

 

[kaiserbill]

Had a look around, especially for clues as to the colour and abreviations on the door of that strange looking vehicle...


First off, I thought the vehicle could be an air force vehicle, for loading ordininance or missiles, but the colour of the vehicle is brown, so it would be Army.


Although it doesn't say TSC (Technical Service Corp) in that abbreviation on the door, here is the TSC gallery of some of their vehicles:


http://the-tsc.co.za/photo.htm


Note that the colour scheme is the same on the door and webpage above, blue, yellow, red.


So, I think it is a TSC vehicle, or was a prototype destined to be.
But for what?
It seems to have rubber bumpers, and as noted, an offset drivers cab giving a long unobstructed loadbed.
Could this be for moving heavy AFV/artillery barrels perhaps?

 

[kaiserbill]

On the subject of service-type vehicle prototypes for the military, I was looking through some of the scanned copies of AAFJ (African Armed Forces Journal) and came across the Miskruier Rough Terrain Forklift Truck, by Bond Industries of Klerksdorp.
Bond Equipment still exists, and is a large engineering and plant manufacturer that seems to specialise in the mining sector, according to their website, which unfortunately makes no mention of the vehicle.


Apart from a brief single mention of it in Janes, no other info out there that I can find apart from this scan below.
This is from AAFJ April 1988, and the Miskruier was displayed at FIDA 88 in Chile.

 

[kaiserbill]

Another prototype featured in AAFJ, but this time 6 years earlier in Jan 82, was the Tremi from a company on the other side of the country, in Cape Town.


It had a hydraulic power transmission system that enabled many of the normal drive and running components to be omitted.
(I'm idly wondering whether there was any link to the weird Spinnekop mine detection vehicle regarding hydraulic propulsion here...)


Various roles and configurations were envisaged for the military, as well as half-track, 6x6 and 8x8 versions.


Again, there seems to be nothing further on the vehicle out there, unfortunately.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Had a look around, especially for clues as to the colour and abreviations on the door of that strange looking vehicle...


First off, I thought the vehicle could be an air force vehicle, for loading ordininance or missiles, but the colour of the vehicle is brown, so it would be Army.


Although it doesn't say TSC (Technical Service Corp) in that abbreviation on the door, here is the TSC gallery of some of their vehicles:


http://the-tsc.co.za/photo.htm


Note that the colour scheme is the same on the door and webpage above, blue, yellow, red.


So, I think it is a TSC vehicle, or was a prototype destined to be.
But for what?
It seems to have rubber bumpers, and as noted, an offset drivers cab giving a long unobstructed loadbed.
Could this be for moving heavy AFV/artillery barrels perhaps?

Could it be perhaps intended as a dedicated carrier for Mabey Bridge components?

 

[kaiserbill]

Could it be perhaps intended as a dedicated carrier for Mabey Bridge components?

Perhaps something like that, but then that would fall under the Engineers Corp, not the Technical Corp?
The colours on the vehicle door seem to indicate the Technical Corp...


Also, at the time of this vehicle above, the Bailey Bridge was in use.

 

[Grey Havoc]

You're right. I had forgotten the photo was from the early 1990s rather than more recently.

Drone carrier of some description then?

 

[curious george]

*off f/book.

 

[kaiserbill]

Thanks CG.
Pics of that large armoured 8x8 gun tractor are very rare... only a couple out there.



I've seen it mentioned that the vehicle used MAN components, in contrast to the other, earlier published assertion (earlier on this thread) that it used Samil 100 components.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Thanks CG.
Pics of that large armoured 8x8 gun tractor are very rare... only a couple out there.



I've seen it mentioned that the vehicle used MAN components, in contrast to the other, earlier published assertion (earlier on this thread) that it used Samil 100 components.

Looking closely at the picture, it is a flatbed log vehicle nearest to the camera and an 8x8 gun tractor in the background?

 

[kaiserbill]

Looking closely at the picture, it is a flatbed log vehicle nearest to the camera and an 8x8 gun tractor in the background?

The vehicle in the rear looks like a 6x6 SAMIL Kwevoel to me.


The one in front looks to be this 8x8 vehicle below, featured earlier in the thread.
One of these pics is yours that you posted earlier.
The Helmoed Romer Heitman book from the mid/late 1980's suggested that it was a SAMIL based guntractor (as can be seen towing a G-5), but I've seen recent info from the same author stating it was actually based on MAN components as opposed to SAMIL components...

 

[curious george]

*off f/book.

 

[CostasTT]

In the first photo, is that a MILAN launcher mounted on the left forward arm?

 

[kaiserbill]

In the first photo, is that a MILAN launcher mounted on the left forward arm?

Good question.


Apophenia posted this on another thread:

Mechem/Alvis Iron Eagle
Designed in 1989 by Mechem Consultants (Denel), taken over by Alvis. Within the Alvis plan, Iron Eagle was to be matched with Mamba IIs (as the Alvis 8 and Alvis 11 depending on seating). Iron Eagle shared the Mamba's Unimog drivetrain (but now mounted in the left rear of the Iron Eagle hull).Iron Eagle was to be a 3-man recce and liaison vehicle to replace aging Ferrets. It was mine protected (welded armour monocoque hull 7.62mm/splinter resistant) and qualified for airdrops (5 chutes per vehicle)The plan for Iron Eagle (Ysterarend) for SADF parachute btns fell through and Alvis developed the concept further as its Scarab. Three Iron Eagle / Ysterarend TDP vehicles were completed.The crew arrangement is driver centre front (and looking very Ratel), with veh cmdr and gunner side-by-side directly behind the driver.
Specs
Length 3.6 m 11.81 ft
Width 2.1 m 6.89 ft
Height 1.74 m 5.71 ft
Combat weight 4.23 tonnes 4.66 tons
Fuel capacity 90 liters 23.94 gal
Performance. The maximum speed and range figures are on hard earth surfaces.
Maximum speed 105 km/h 65 mph
Maximum range 378 km 234.7 statute miles
Step 47 cm 1.54 ftTrench 78 cm 2.56 ft
Slope 26% 26%
Gradient 64% 64%
Fording 1.2 m 3.94 ft
Mercedes 123 hp (92 kW) and 4 + 4 manual gearbox and two-speed transfer box.Armament: quick-change pallet-mounted main armament (M40 106mm recoilless, Milan ATGM, 81mm M3 mortar, R107 MLRS), pintle-mount 7.62mm MG4 on right side.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7351.0


Also:

The original Milan or “New Generation Antitank Guided Missile (ATGM)” as it was called at the time, was available for issue to the Special Forces and the anti-tank platoons of the SA Army’s motorised and parachute infantry battalions in the late 1970s and 1980s at a scale of six launchers per platoon. The platoon was organised into three anti-tank sections consisting of two ATGM launchers and two M40A1 106mm recoilless guns (in the case of motorised troops) or two rocket launchers (in the case of airborne troops).

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=12909:fact-file-milan-precision-guided-misile&catid=79:fact-files&Itemid=159


As far as I can tell, the SA parattroopers were using Ferret armoured cars as air droppable prime movers for weapons such as the 106mm recoiless. I think the YsterArend (Iron Eagle) vehicle above was developed to be airdroppable, and was probably aimed at replacing the Ferrets in paratrooper service.
Indeed, looking at the first pic, the major leaning on the front of the vehicle is a paratrooper, with the distinctive parabat smock.


As such, a Milan mounted on one would make perfect sense, I guess.

 

[sa_bushwar]

In the first photo, is that a MILAN launcher mounted on the left forward arm?

Good question.


Apophenia posted this on another thread:

Mechem/Alvis Iron Eagle
Designed in 1989 by Mechem Consultants (Denel), taken over by Alvis. Within the Alvis plan, Iron Eagle was to be matched with Mamba IIs (as the Alvis 8 and Alvis 11 depending on seating). Iron Eagle shared the Mamba's Unimog drivetrain (but now mounted in the left rear of the Iron Eagle hull).Iron Eagle was to be a 3-man recce and liaison vehicle to replace aging Ferrets. It was mine protected (welded armour monocoque hull 7.62mm/splinter resistant) and qualified for airdrops (5 chutes per vehicle)The plan for Iron Eagle (Ysterarend) for SADF parachute btns fell through and Alvis developed the concept further as its Scarab. Three Iron Eagle / Ysterarend TDP vehicles were completed.The crew arrangement is driver centre front (and looking very Ratel), with veh cmdr and gunner side-by-side directly behind the driver.
Specs
Length 3.6 m 11.81 ft
Width 2.1 m 6.89 ft
Height 1.74 m 5.71 ft
Combat weight 4.23 tonnes 4.66 tons
Fuel capacity 90 liters 23.94 gal
Performance. The maximum speed and range figures are on hard earth surfaces.
Maximum speed 105 km/h 65 mph
Maximum range 378 km 234.7 statute miles
Step 47 cm 1.54 ftTrench 78 cm 2.56 ft
Slope 26% 26%
Gradient 64% 64%
Fording 1.2 m 3.94 ft
Mercedes 123 hp (92 kW) and 4 + 4 manual gearbox and two-speed transfer box.Armament: quick-change pallet-mounted main armament (M40 106mm recoilless, Milan ATGM, 81mm M3 mortar, R107 MLRS), pintle-mount 7.62mm MG4 on right side.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7351.0


Also:

The original Milan or “New Generation Antitank Guided Missile (ATGM)” as it was called at the time, was available for issue to the Special Forces and the anti-tank platoons of the SA Army’s motorised and parachute infantry battalions in the late 1970s and 1980s at a scale of six launchers per platoon. The platoon was organised into three anti-tank sections consisting of two ATGM launchers and two M40A1 106mm recoilless guns (in the case of motorised troops) or two rocket launchers (in the case of airborne troops).

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=12909:fact-file-milan-precision-guided-misile&catid=79:fact-files&Itemid=159


As far as I can tell, the SA parattroopers were using Ferret armoured cars as air droppable prime movers for weapons such as the 106mm recoiless. I think the YsterArend (Iron Eagle) vehicle above was developed to be airdroppable, and was probably aimed at replacing the Ferrets in paratrooper service.
Indeed, looking at the first pic, the major leaning on the front of the vehicle is a paratrooper, with the distinctive parabat smock.


As such, a Milan mounted on one would make perfect sense, I guess.

From the book: Surviving the Ride. Worthwhile checking it out as it has write-ups on many of the MRV prototypes.

 

[kaiserbill]

I've been meaning to order a copy of that Surviving the Ride, as it was recommended to me by Graugrun from this thread.
Alas, I've been busy with some "life" stuff over the last while...(apologies Graugrun, I never did get back to your request )



The previews on places like google books shows that it deals with many of the prototypes and programmes discussed in this very thread, including some of the rarer ones.


It looks like a "must have".

 

[sa_bushwar]

I've been meaning to order a copy of that Surviving the Ride, as it was recommended to me by Graugrun from this thread.
Alas, I've been busy with some "life" stuff over the last while...(apologies Graugrun, I never did get back to your request )



The previews on places like google books shows that it deals with many of the prototypes and programmes discussed in this very thread, including some of the rarer ones.


It looks like a "must have".

Definitely a "must have", also considering the respectable authors...

 

[sa_bushwar]

Denel "Scout" with 81mm mortar. Don't think it ever went into production.

 

[Herman]

Is "Surviving the Ride" also available as a hard copy? On Amazon it seems to be offered only as a Kindle download.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Yes it is; try http://www.warbooks.co.za/

 

[sa_bushwar]

Denel "Scout" with 81mm mortar. Don't think it ever went into production.

And to proof it is not only the Chinese copying from everyone, here is an early RG 32 Scout version with a copy of the Chinese Type 63 MRL mounted on the back. In SA it was developed by Mechcem and called the RO 107. Again I suspect this version of the Scout never went into production.

 

[Herman]

Answer to post #1328:


Thank's Bushwar. I ordered a copy.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Denel "Scout" with 81mm mortar. Don't think it ever went into production.

...or is this the long range 60mm mortar???

 

[sa_bushwar]

From the www:
RG41, is a South African 8x8 armored fighting vehicle (AFV) with mine resistant protection developed by Land Systems OMC, a subsidiary of BAE Systems. The RG41 was designed as an affordable modern AFV can be utilized in a variety of roles, including infantry section vehicle, a command vehicle, an ambulance, recovery vehicle and engineer vehicle. Its large payload capability allows additional armour to be added to the RG41 and verity of weapon systems such as the Alliant Techsystems's 25mm M242 Bushmaster mounted in a tactical response turret, the TRT-25 remote weapon station (RWS).HistoryLand Systems OMC, a subdivision of BAE Systems in South Africa, began development of the RG41 in early 2008 as a private venture after seeing a need for an affordable combat system. To meet this requirement, the RG41 employs an ITAR (International Tariff in Arms Regulation) free design and consists of commercial off-the-shelf (COTS) components [1] that are not subject to US International Traffic in Arms Regulations.


Would have been an ideal, indigenous, and in my opinion better Ratel replacement than the Patria. Any new news on further development of the RG41?