South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

[kaiserbill]

But it's the South African Reconnaissance Car Mk 7 and Mk 8 which info is scarce on.

Both were constructed in prototype form.
The Mk 7 was a front engined 4x4 car, with at least one, but likely more, prototypes constructed.
The Mk 8 was also front engined, and had a 2 pounder in a turret.
I've only ever seen one picture purporting to be the Mk 7.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Here's more...

2x Ratel prototypes at the 1 SAI gate.

*This was posted on f/book this afternoon by a guy who says that he took the pic at 1 SAI (SA infantry battalion) in Bloemfontein.

Could this be the elusive Ratel "Bussing" prototype?

 

[kaiserbill]

Excellent post Sa Bushwar!

As I thought, that first vehicle is the elusive Springfield Bussing Buffel, the grandfather of all the various Ratels.
Thanks also for the second picture of the development of this, which is recognisable as a Ratel!

Looks like I need to peruse your site again.

Thanks again.

 

[sa_bushwar]

The SADF codenamed the development of the Ratel "Projek Pampoen".

Here is a pic of the Uruthu evaluated during Pampoen.

Here it is gentlemen. Nothing you don't know yet.

 

[Herman]

Answer to post #651.

Thank you for these excellent posts Bushwar; both the Ratel prototype and the Brazilian Urutu! I assume these vehicles are in Bloemfontein. As you probably know, in the "essay" I posed in this thread on the presumable development history of the Ratel, I expressed some doubts whether the Urutu was actually tested in South Africa and this photo you posted shows that it was indeed. It is interesting to note that the inwards sloping sides and door of the first Ratel prototype are very similar to those of the Belgian Sibmas, a vehicle which is otherwise very, very similar to the Ratel.

Kaiserbill refers to your site: URL please.

 

[kaiserbill]

Wow!
The Brazilian Engesa Urutu that had been mentioned as taking part in the initial trials.
I must admit, considering the timeframe, and the politics involved, that I was slightly disbelieving.
Another excellent find.

 

[kaiserbill]

Herman, his website address is injected onto his pictures.
As you state above, I was also sceptical whether the Urutu was ever tested, especially in South Africa, given the timeframe and the politics involved.

I was clearly wrong.

On the Sibmas, I've read a highly politicized book from the 1980's where the 2 authors called into question every and any South African vehicle project. The book is littered with errors, with the authors clearly out of their depth on military matters, and is of a left wing bent. (for the record, I personally hate the term left or right wing, and have used it here for convenience. It is a lazy catch-all.)

One of the unsubstantiated "points" they made is that the Ratel was a "copy" of the Sibmas.

The fact that the Ratel came before the Sibmas, and was in poduction and service before the first Sibmas prototype, and is an altogether larger and more powerful vehicle does not seem to have occurred to the authors, as well as the obvious fact that indeed, the Sibmas may have been influenced by the Ratel.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

On the Sibmas, I've read a highly politicized book from the 1980's where the 2 authors called into question every and any South African vehicle project. The book is littered with errors, with the authors clearly out of their depth on military matters, and is of a left wing bent. (for the record, I personally hate the term left or right wing, and have used it here for convenience. It is a lazy catch-all.)

One of the unsubstantiated "points" they made is that the Ratel was a "copy" of the Sibmas.

The fact that the Ratel came before the Sibmas, and was in poduction and service before the first Sibmas prototype, and is an altogether larger and more powerful vehicle does not seem to have occurred to the authors, as well as the obvious fact that indeed, the Sibmas may have been influenced by the Ratel.

Simbas was made in Belgium in the 1980s and thanks to their very liberal arms supply policies most likely based on an illicitly purchased design from South Africa.

However the Ratel hull and mechanics is very similar to an earlier 1960s French armoured vehicle. I would at least suspect blue prints were purchased by South Africa

 

[panzerskool]

Just found a mint copy of the excellent War for Africa by Fred Bridgeland, extremely hard to find but worth the wait and read.


On page 160 referring the aftermath of the oct 87 battle at Lomba where we captured the first Sam 8 , the writer refers to this equipment and its 20 off missiles going back to armscor who "armscor quickly went to work to incorporate any of the worthwhile technology into its next generation on indigenous weapons products. It is possible by now that a powerful Kruger 8 mobile anti aircraft missile system is ready to roll off the production line"


the book was first published in 1990 , so teh writer must have known something we don't.


What is Kruger 8?

 

[kaiserbill]

Panzerskool, that sounds like a generic name the author has personally come up with for a South African SAM system, in lieu of any insider information.
Kruger Rands, President Paul Kruger, ...etc.

At the time, it was known that Armscor was working on various projects to fill gaps in South Africa's equipment list.
For example, Helmoed Romer Heitmann had by 1987/88 expressed in his one book that Armscor was working on certain projects.
He obviously didn't name them by project or designation, but I've put in brackets what they ended up being called:

Heitmann mentioned a new heavy armoured car (Rooikat), and new generation tank (the TTD or Loggim/Logum), a heavy anti-tank missile (ZT-3), mobile AA Artillery (ZA-35 SPAADS), and a mobile SAM system, amongst others.

This last mobile SAM system was based on a Rooikat chassis, and was to complement the twin 35mm SPAADS. The missile was called the SAHV-3, was intended to replace the Cactus/Crotale, and the IR version morphed into the Umkhonto SAM later.

Clearly this is the missile system Bridgeland got wind of, as it was from the same time period.

From Janes:

The South African SAHV-3 (Surface-to-Air High Velocity-3) missile programme was
initiated in the mid-1980s, during the final phase of the Angolan campaign, when
the South African National Defence Force (SANDEF) found that it could not
provide sufficient air cover for its ground troops. The missile, believed to
have been called Spectre, was designed as a plug-in replacement for the French
Cactus/Crotale missiles, and SAHV is compatible with the Crotale fire unit
including the command link receiver. A common RF/laser command link is used in
both the Crotale and SAHV-3 systems, and the laser option has been incorporated
in the baseline SAHV-3 model to ensure compatibility with the passive
electro-optical tracking system specified by the South African Army. The first
projected platform for the SAHV was Crotale 1000, a modernised version of the
Cactus missile system in service with the SANDEF, but the latest version is
Crotale 4000. The SAHV missile was designed to take alternative guidance
systems, using assemblies already in development. The first option uses command
guidance from the Crotale system, and is known as SAHV-3. A second option uses
an IR homing seeker developed for the Darter air-to-air missile, and this
variant was initially designated SAHV-IR, but is now known as Umkhonto (Spear).
A third option, which employed an active radar seeker, was designated
SAHV-RS.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post # 654
The Sibmas was introduced significantly later than the Ratel. It is actually practically identical in size to the Ratel, and it has a slightly more powerful engine than the Ratel. It uses the same MAN axles, a MAN instead of a Bussing engine and a different gearbox. The actual lay-out of the mechanical components in the Sibmas is also slightly different to those of the Ratel. I don't really think there is anything sinister in the similarity between these two vehicles. If you decided in 1970/80 to build a wheeled ICV with 6 wheels that can house a 1.5 meter diameter turret ring at the front and can carry a useful number of dismounts, using commercial off the shelf components, you almost inevitably end up with something like the Ratel/Sibmas. The Belgian builders of the Sibmas certainly did not need the plans of the Ratel; just looking at a photo would be enough. Furthermore, MAN was also closely involved with the building both the Ratel and the Sibmas.

The Ratel is no rocket science; it is simply an armoured 6x6 truck built with commercial automotive components. That is also the secret of the reliability and longevity of the vehicle.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #655
The French vehicle you are referring to was the Berliet VXB, introduced in 1969. It is indeed similar in lay-out to the Ratel but is significanlty smaller, less powerful and is only a 4x4. It was supposedly one of the vehicles evaluated by SA during the workup towards the Ratel. It probably influenced the design of the Ratel. The driver position, for instance, looked very similar to that of the Ratel. As I mentioned however: if you are going to build a wheeled APC/ICV on live axles and a reasonably low profile, you almost inevitably end up having to stick the engine at the back and the end result is something like the Berliet, Ratel or Sibmas. The current US M114, even though it uses independent suspension, also uses a lay-out similar to the above vehicles.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Anyone know what this bloodbox was called?

 

[sa_bushwar]

This one?

Reply to post #655
The French vehicle you are referring to was the Berliet VXB, introduced in 1969. It is indeed similar in lay-out to the Ratel but is significanlty smaller, less powerful and is only a 4x4. It was supposedly one of the vehicles evaluated by SA during the workup towards the Ratel. It probably influenced the design of the Ratel. The driver position, for instance, looked very similar to that of the Ratel. As I mentioned however: if you are going to build a wheeled APC/ICV on live axles and a reasonably low profile, you almost inevitably end up having to stick the engine at the back and the end result is something like the Berliet, Ratel or Sibmas. The current US M114, even though it uses independent suspension, also uses a lay-out similar to the above vehicles.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Early version vulture UAV for artillery spotting

 

[kaiserbill]

This one?

No.

That's the vehicle from the very first post in this thread.
Called the Bosbok, it is basically a locally built version of the Panhard M3 with some very minor modifications.
It made sense seeing as South Africa produced about 1500 Elands/AML armoured cars, with which this vehicle shared an extremely high percentage of components.
Part of the first trials, it was quickly eliminated, as the Army clearly wanted a proper, versatile infantry fighting vehicle as opposed to a basic APC.

 

[GTX]

Anyone know what this bloodbox was called?

Looks to have a somewhat similar front to the Bateleur MRLS:

 

[JFC Fuller]

The Bateleur is on a standard SAMIL 100 Kwevoel chassis and the ambulance is on a standard SAMIL 50 Kwevoel chassis.

 

[kaiserbill]

Was just going to post, but JFC Fuller was quicker to the draw.
The Kwevoel range echoes the SAMIL truck range.
They are basically the 4x4 SAMIL 20, 4x4 SAMIL 50, and 6x6 SAMIL 100 trucks as used by the army, but suitably beefed up and fitted with a mineproof and armoured cab for work in area's of heightened threat.
Proof against 3xTM57 anti tank mines.


They came in a wide range of variants, with just some of them being cargo, recovery vehicles, multiple rocket launcher, personnel carriers, ambulance, tankers.....etc.
One of the more interesting and rarer types were the limited amount of Kwevoel 100 horse transporters with full mine protection for the horses, of which I think 10 could be transported.
In use since 1978, some have just the cab modification, whilst others have full length mine protection, depending on the various roles.
The Bataleur MRL has a larger cab for the increased crew requirement of the rocket launcher.
The Kwevoel mounted on the SAMIL 20 in fact is very similar to the Rhino APC used by the Air Force that can be seen earlier in the thread.

Kwevoel 20, 50, and 100 in that order:

 

[Rickshaw]

Do the numeric designations refer to anything (ie weight/wheelbase/etc) or are just merely model numbers?

 

[sa_bushwar]

Tonnage:

20 = 2 ton

50 = 5 ton

100 = 10 ton

Do the numeric designations refer to anything (ie weight/wheelbase/etc) or are just merely model numbers?

 

[sa_bushwar]

Here is a Buffel with double driver's cab joined to the rearcab. Has anyone got a picture of a complete one?

 

[JFC Fuller]

On the subject of the SAMIL Kwevoel, is there any more information or photos of the 8x8 gun tractor built using SAMIL-100 components?

 

[CostasTT]

Just one more photo - source is obvious.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Project Cabbage was the Armscor project for acquisition of gun tractors for the G5. In 1980 a version of the SAMIL 100 entered service fitted as a gun tractor for the G5. Perhaps this was a follow on project if a mine protected gun tractor was needed.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #661
No, that is a local, modified version of the Panhard M3. That is a really small vehicle; only about 6 tons. The Berliet I referred to is the blue thing on page 7 of the piece I posted on page 38 of this thread. The Berliet is about the same width as the Ratel but is only 6 meters long compared to the 7.2 meters of the Ratel, combat weight is around 12 tons compared to the Ratel's 18 tons and the Berliet is 4x4, of course, not 6x6 like te Ratel.

 

[kaiserbill]

Here is a Buffel with double driver's cab joined to the rearcab. Has anyone got a picture of a complete one?

That is unusual.

Never seen that before.

 

[kaiserbill]

Project Cabbage was the Armscor project for acquisition of gun tractors for the G5. In 1980 a version of the SAMIL 100 entered service fitted as a gun tractor for the G5. Perhaps this was a follow on project if a mine protected gun tractor was needed.

Helmoed Romer Heitmann, in his book South African Arms and Armour, states under that photo:

This 8x8 armoured and mine-protected gun tractor is a "one off" concept vehicle
using SAMIL-100 components. It offers an interesting alternative to the standard
"soft-skinned" SAMIL-100 gun tractor.

That is the only information I've ever seen on it.

 

[curious george]

Here is a Buffel with double driver's cab joined to the rearcab. Has anyone got a picture of a complete one?

Posted the pic before,have a look at the "vehicle" next to the buffel(behind the T-72,and in between the samil 20 and olifant 1b),if the model is what I think it is,it looks like a samil20 based apc?

 

[kaiserbill]

Anyone know what this bloodbox was called?

No idea, if they are just ambulances, but there was a medical Kwevoel 100 variant that was a Mobile Resuscitation Unit.
This was comprehensively equipped, but those vehicles you've posted are obviously Kwevoel 50 based, whereas the Kwevoel 100 would be the larger 6x6.

 

[kaiserbill]

On the subject of those TEL vehicles for the nuclear missiles, I was reading through Those Who Had The Power by Badenhorst and Victor.

This is what they had to say:

De Ionno notes that two all-terrain mobile launchers intended to carry the
country's ballistic missiles were built and tested at Armscors proving ground at
Advena in 1988 and 1989. These evaluations would have taken place at Gerotek -
which of course also housed the Advena Circle - with the 'Missile R&D'
facility only about 2 kiolometers away, and the Central Laboratories about
another kilometer further again.


A person who has actually seen such a TEL locally (sans missile obviously)
told one of the authors that it was an 8 wheeled vehicle.


AVA Systems (Pty) Ltd., in it's profile of the South African Army, notes that
the Afrikaans press simply referred to this vehicle as the "truck with no name".
(The "truck with no name", or in Afrikaans "Lorrie Zonder Naam" - LZN - was
actually a six-wheeled vehicle spun off from the s.c. "Bees Trok".)





Steyn, van der Walt and van Loggerenberg notes that a facility had been set
up in Centurion, near Pretoria, for the development and manufacture of the
mobile launch vehicle system. This appears to have been in reference to
Lyttleton Engineering Works (LIW), which also built the G-5 gun and its huge G-6
self-propelled derivative. (This presumably was the later-noted Special B
Vehicles - or Spes B - facility.)





The illustration of a generic TEL as per Plate #140 speaks for itself. (This
is an extrapolation of the vehicle illustrated by A.V.A Systems (Pty) Ltd in
it's 'Profile of the South African Army: Arniston Missile' DVD; the Soviet MAZ
547VTEL; other open sources mentioned in this book, as well as the application
of common sense.)


It has a length of 17m and a main vehicle height of 2,8m (4,48m overall).





The South African TEL was apparently nick-named "Bees Trok" (Cattle Truck),
while it was reportedly built at LIW - at the so-called Special B Vehicles (or
Spes B facility.





.....snip......





Indeed, it was suggested to one of the authors that 5 flights of TELS (6
TELS per flight) were ordered. Of these, 7 TELS were completed, and 6 were
deployable by the time the plug was pulled.





....snip....





Former Minister of Defence, Magnus Malan, later indicated that the South
African nuclear weapons could inter-alia have been delivered by missile -
fired from a mobile vehicle that had wheels nearly 2m in diameter. The
illustration of the TEL as per Plate # 140 again speaks for
itself. The Risk Report notes that Israels Shavit is launched from a
TEL (as well - authors) which is speculated to be derived from that
used for Israels ballistic missiles, and was also used for the South
African ballistic missile/space launch vehicle that was very similar to Shavit.
This much is confirmed by Wade who in published images of the RSA-3 also details
aspects of its TEL arrangement.

Not sure how accurate, but posted it for what it is worth.

 

[Skyscout]

Quote
A person who has actually seen such a TEL locally (sans missile obviously)
told one of the authors that it was an 8 wheeled vehicle.


AVA Systems (Pty) Ltd., in it's profile of the South African Army, notes that
the Afrikaans press simply referred to this vehicle as the "truck with no name".
(The "truck with no name", or in Afrikaans "Lorrie Zonder Naam" - LZN - was
actually a six-wheeled vehicle spun off from the s.c. "Bees Trok".)
Quote

----------LZN was definitely not the "Bees trok" LZN was designed for the G6 and the idea was that some of the major parts to be interchangeable- obviously for ease of logistics.
I also saw LZN next to the highway at the N4 Trucks scrapyard- this is a google streetview photo- amazing how much info is available on google!!

 

[JFC Fuller]

Skyscout,

I think what that section is saying is not that the LZN was the "Bees Trok" but that the LZN was a 6x6 derivative of the Bees Trok: which would make sense. There is nothing in the "Those who had the power" piece quoted by kaiserbill that states the LZN was not a "fresh" design or based on G6 components. Rather it says that the LZN was "spun off" from the Bees Trok; that could mean any number of things but one of them is that the LZN was inspired by the Bees Trok and ended up using very similar components- the Bees Trok and LZN would still be two different vehicles designed for two different roles but based on the same G6 components.

 

[kaiserbill]

Yes.

I think the authors, in brackets, are correcting the confusion in the press between the 6x6 LZN and the 8x8 Beestrok.

Nice pic, skyscout.
And to think a couple of years ago, there was basically nothing on the internet about the LZN...

 

[Skyscout]

Yes, I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the truck parked on the lawn next to the highway!

As I said earlier, the LZN was I complete fresh design based on G6 components.

 

[kaiserbill]

I would post some of the TEL drawings in the book, but, as the author said:

The illustration of a generic TEL as per Plate #140 speaks for itself. (This

is an extrapolation of the vehicle illustrated by A.V.A Systems (Pty) Ltd in

it's 'Profile of the South African Army: Arniston Missile' DVD; the Soviet
MAZ
547VTEL; other open sources mentioned in this book, as well as the
application
of common sense.)

So it is not likely to be anything like the real deal methinks, and will only serve to muddy the waters.

 

[JFC Fuller]

kaiser,

I am just jealous that you have a copy. Do you also have "How South Africa Built Six Atom Bombs and Then Abandoned it's Nuclear Weapons Program" by Al .J Venter?

I speculated on this form long ago that the LZN was related to the Bees Trok and was shouted down, but it has always seemed to me that given the capabilities that existed in the LIW special vehicles divisions and that they had experience developing very heavy wheeled vehicles they would be the obvious choice for the TEL programme.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I speculated on this form long ago that the LZN was related to the Bees Trok and was shouted down, but it has always seemed to me that given the capabilities that existed in the LIW special vehicles divisions and that they had experience developing very heavy wheeled vehicles they would be the obvious choice for the TEL programme.

You weren’t shouted down but rather a debate was had on if it would be necessary for a TEL to have cross country capability. Also the point was made at that time that a connection between the LZN and a TEL was purely speculative.

"Those Who Had The Power" by Badenhorst and Victor is also saying that the RSA TEL was derived from an Israeli TEL. In which case it is pretty unlikely it is related to the LZN which as we know via other sources (the product brochure) is derived from the G6 vehicle which as detailed in "Arms and the Man" by Lowther was inspired by forestry vehicles in Canada.

That being said there seems more information in "Those Who Had The Power" that the Bees Trok is a 8x8 LZN. Especially being the claim that they were both built in the same factory (Special B Vehicles).

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Here is what a notional 8x8 LZN "Beestok" RSA-2 TEL could have looked like. The vehicle dimensions are to fit those provided in "Those Who Had The Power" by Badenhorst and Victor.

 

[JFC Fuller]

I was shouted down. And it may have been speculation on my part but speculation that now seems to have been correct.

The snippets posted by kaiserbill clearly state that the LZN was spun off from the Bees Trok. It would make sense, SA had considerable automotive experience and LIW Special Vehicles division had particular experience with large off-road wheeled vehicles. Interesting mock-up by the way.