South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

[kaiserbill]

Tank turret.

Trying to figure out where this fits in.

It has many features of the Olifant Optimal turret, but doesnt have the sloped wedge-shape of that tank turret, but rather the slab shaped front found on the TTD or even the original Bismark 8X8 turret, not the one presently found on that vehicle.

 

[Graugrun]

Short article from Janes IDR 3-1998, on the Lion, which I don't think anything has been posted on yet in this thread.

 

[Graugrun]

Another short article from Janes IDR on an updated version of the LCT 12,7 turret as originally posted by sa_bushwar in post #1170 - so it was developed for the Irish army's Pandur 6X6 APC, which I am sure was also successfully sold to them.

 

[sa_bushwar]

From the web...

Tank turret.

Trying to figure out where this fits in.

It has many features of the Olifant Optimal turret, but doesnt have the sloped wedge-shape of that tank turret, but rather the slab shaped front found on the TTD or even the original Bismark 8X8 turret, not the one presently found on that vehicle.

 

[sa_bushwar]

The inside, very basic indicating its prototype status.

Tank turret.

Trying to figure out where this fits in.

It has many features of the Olifant Optimal turret, but doesnt have the sloped wedge-shape of that tank turret, but rather the slab shaped front found on the TTD or even the original Bismark 8X8 turret, not the one presently found on that vehicle.

 

[kaiserbill]

Short article from Janes IDR 3-1998, on the Lion, which I don't think anything has been posted on yet in this thread.

Very good.

A couple of pics of the Lion was posted earlier in the thread, but there was a lack of info regarding the vehicle.
This explains quite a bit.

I wonder if there is any family ties to the Sterkhans 6X6 vehicle mentioned earlier, about which there is very little info?
Also manufactured by WFM, it seems to have been a Wolf 6X6 derivitive.

 

[kaiserbill]

Thanks for that SA Bushwar.

What turrets are those though?

They are not the turret fitted on the TTD/Loggim.
They are not the turret originally fitted on the Bismark heavy 8X8. from what we can see of those small pics we have.
It has features of the Olifant Optimal turret, yet is different from that too...

 

[sa_bushwar]

Not sure, is it not part of the Jordanian project whereby we assisted them with tank technology???

Thanks for that SA Bushwar.

What turrets are those though?

They are not the turret fitted on the TTD/Loggim.
They are not the turret originally fitted on the Bismark heavy 8X8. from what we can see of those small pics we have.
It has features of the Olifant Optimal turret, yet is different from that too...

 

[kaiserbill]

Not sure, is it not part of the Jordanian project whereby we assisted them with tank technology???

Thanks for that SA Bushwar.

What turrets are those though?

They are not the turret fitted on the TTD/Loggim.
They are not the turret originally fitted on the Bismark heavy 8X8. from what we can see of those small pics we have.
It has features of the Olifant Optimal turret, yet is different from that too...

I'm not sure.

The Falcon turret is very different, being basically an un-manned turret. It is an MDB product, essentially.

Those turrets from your pictures are LIW, I think.

I think perhaps they either have something to do either with an Olifant development, or the TTD/Loggim new generation tank, or perhaps even that large 8X8 Bismark vehicle?
Or maybe perhaps it was a technology carrier/demonstrator?

 

[Graugrun]

I have seen this turret a few times, but honestly thought it would be old news in this thread, so never bothered to post it....

It was a LIW design, IIRC I have also seen it in an Reumech Ermetek advert, showing a pic of it during testing inside their premises. I would guess it properly was a development towards the final Optimised Mk 1B turret pictured below it in the first attachment - or perhaps even a more cost effective version without the additional slopped armour attached...

 

[kaiserbill]

Thanks Graugrun.

That actually clears up quite a bit. with regards to the tank turrets.

There had been speculation earlier on whether the Olifant Mk2 and the Olifant Optimal turrets were new or modifications of the existing turret.

It appears that both new and upgraded were built for testing.

A Chieftain with a decent powerpack, and one of those turrets with a 120mm would have been interesting...

 

[Graugrun]

While we are on turrets - one of the prototype Badger LCT-30 turrets - this one has the American Bushmaster 30mm gun installed, we eventually opted for the Denel (LIW) EMAK 30 external cam driven gun.

 

[Graugrun]

I'd be quite interested to know more about the "ceramic armour" part of this Krokodil vehicle.

I'm pretty sure it's MOH-9' ceramic armour (mostly Alumina Oxide and other materials) - here is a rare pic (bottom) of one of their employees filling up the left and right armour blocks for the front of the Olifant 'B' turret (note chalk markings on each block). I'm pretty sure other materials have, or will be added in - forming something akin to Chobham armour. Scanned from the DEXSA show's 1992-3 SA defence industry directory.

They also specifically mention 23mm protection, leads me to think that perhaps it forms part of Rooikat's armour too - hopefully someone with a lot more Rooikat knowledge can confirm?

 

[Graugrun]

Here is the Lion 2 - interesting caption, it forms part of the South African mine resistant technology that went to the U.S. - forming the complete base of all their (and the British) MRAP vehicles, later we supplied same such to others like the Germans and Australians (Bushmaster). From African Armed Forces, August 2000.

 

[curious george]

Off F/book,dont recall offhand if this was posted before.

 

[Graugrun]

Who remembers this project - lightweight composite wheels for tanks by TFD Design. From a DEXSA 1996 booklet titled 'Advanced Technologies. At the time budget of any military weapons was being drastically cut back, so it withered for many years, finally coming to fruition in the last few years (properly by a different company) in the form of lightweight composite wheels on all the current Olifant Mk2 tanks (they now also look the same as standard tank wheels).

Attached is also a project by Reumech Ermetek on various other proposed lightweight tank components.

I also have some nice info on the Allthane puncture proof tyre (airless) project - I will post it in the Rooikat thread in due course.

 

[kaiserbill]

I'd not heard of those before, much less that they are actually going to be fielded on the Olifant 2.
It's quite interesting.
I wonder what the tolerance to damage is? I'd assume it would be at least the same as the steel equivalent?

 

[sa_bushwar]

What about a bit of a quiz? Who can identify these 4 vehicles? - this is the closest I could get to take a picture at that stage.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Not sure, is it not part of the Jordanian project whereby we assisted them with tank technology???

Thanks for that SA Bushwar.

What turrets are those though?

They are not the turret fitted on the TTD/Loggim.
They are not the turret originally fitted on the Bismark heavy 8X8. from what we can see of those small pics we have.
It has features of the Olifant Optimal turret, yet is different from that too...

I'm not sure.

The Falcon turret is very different, being basically an un-manned turret. It is an MDB product, essentially.

Those turrets from your pictures are LIW, I think.

I think perhaps they either have something to do either with an Olifant development, or the TTD/Loggim new generation tank, or perhaps even that large 8X8 Bismark vehicle?
Or maybe perhaps it was a technology carrier/demonstrator?

Talking about the Bismarck 8x8 turret - here is a nice side view.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Thanks for that SA Bushwar.

What turrets are those though?

They are not the turret fitted on the TTD/Loggim.
They are not the turret originally fitted on the Bismark heavy 8X8. from what we can see of those small pics we have.
It has features of the Olifant Optimal turret, yet is different from that too...

Was it not the precursor to the Falcon turret: http://www.military-today.com/tanks/falcon_turret.htm

 

[kaiserbill]

What about a bit of a quiz? Who can identify these 4 vehicles? - this is the closest I could get to take a picture at that stage.

I'm going to take a guess.

from left to right:
1.Ratel Logistic 8X8
2.Buffel
3.Either that strange vehicle that you snapped at Fort Klapperkop with the SAMIL/Buffel features, or Bulldog
4.Hippo

If 3 is correct, then yhis photo seems much more recent, implying that the vehicle still exists...

 

[kaiserbill]

Talking about the Bismarck 8x8 turret - here is a nice side view.

From what I can gather, that turret is an Olifant Mk1B turret plonked on top of the Bismark. If you have a careful look, one can see spare tracks for a tracked vehicle on the turret rear.
Still, it has interesting detail of the turret as well as the Bismark hull.

The few indistinct pics we have of the original Bismark shows a different turret.
I seem to recall someone saying the original Bismark turret was destroyed during testing, but I might have got that wrong.

 

[Graugrun]

I'd not heard of those before, much less that they are actually going to be fielded on the Olifant 2.
It's quite interesting.
I wonder what the tolerance to damage is? I'd assume it would be at least the same as the steel equivalent?

The wheels pictured were meant for the Olifant Mk 1A, however due to budget cuts they never went into production and therefore adoption - it just so happens that many years later when the Olifant 2 got going, they then decided it was time to implement this, however unlike the above prototype wheels, the new composite wheels on the Olifant 2 look almost exactly the same as the normal steel wheels.

I will look for a close up photo of the 2's composite wheels to post for your reference.

 

[Graugrun]

Unfortunately this is the most close up pic of the Olifant 2 I took showing the wheels - the reason I know about the wheels being composite is that if you look carefully at their rubber rims, you will notice they are actually green in colour (check the front two wheels in particular).

When we asked further about this odd colour for a rim, the Commanding Officer told us that it's how the new composite wheels look and that's how they can easily distinguish between them and the old metal wheels (with the traditional black rubber rims).

 

[Graugrun]

This is an intro to the 'drive by wire' project - the vehicle seems to be the AC 200. I don't know anything more about this, except that it formed part of the vehicle 'Loosvoor' program.

 

[kaiserbill]

On Page 51 Reply 755, I posted two pics of that vehicle.
The sparse info I had at the time I put in the post, which was basically that it was done to test steering, had "computer controlled" aspects to the steering, and that it was called Addax.

It is nice to see more complete info on the vehicle.

Filling in the gaps...

 

[Graugrun]

The new generation armoured car Concept 3 being field tested.

 

[Graugrun]

I'm surprised that there is no info in this thread on this vehicle yet - Developed by Reumech OMC (who had built and produced the RG-31 MRAP), it was a further development of the RG-31 specifically aimed at the Australian LAND 116 tender. It started life as the Kobra, then when it was down selected for the Australian LAND 116 tender and things got serious, it changed it's name to Taipan (and linked up with Australian Specialised Vehicle Systems - ASVS, as the local partner).

There is a bit of a story to it's very narrowly loosing to the Bushmaster in LAND 116, - but that's a story for another day, in the meantime here's the brochure (time-frame of this brochure was about 1998 IIRC).

 

[Graugrun]

As promised in my post #1052 - herewith the rest of the brochures relating to the Kentron Tiger sighting system upgrade for the T-72 MBT.

 

[Graugrun]

Here is the version for the Tank Technology Demonstrator (TTD) - it is a bit different and is perhaps an earlier version to that of the Tiger system posted above.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Who remembers this project - lightweight composite wheels for tanks by TFD Design. From a DEXSA 1996 booklet titled 'Advanced Technologies. At the time budget of any military weapons was being drastically cut back, so it withered for many years, finally coming to fruition in the last few years (properly by a different company) in the form of lightweight composite wheels on all the current Olifant Mk2 tanks (they now also look the same as standard tank wheels).

Attached is also a project by Reumech Ermetek on various other proposed lightweight tank components.

I also have some nice info on the Allthane puncture proof tyre (airless) project - I will post it in the Rooikat thread in due course.

This gives one an idea who worked on the project.

 

[sa_bushwar]

From: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Jordan+eyes+expansion+of+domestic+defense+industry-a0132162761

Some significant SA involvement here...

In conjunction with Mechanology Design Bureau and IST Dynamics of South Africa, CLS Jordan and General Dynamics, KADDB is working on the Temsah tracked heavy infantry combat vehicle. It can operate alongside the most advanced battle tanks. The Temsah can be equipped with reactive armor and has a front-mounted engine to increase protection. It can carry a crew of two and up to 10 troops. The vehicle can be configured as a tracked ambulance, command post or a mortar/howitzer platform.

 

[Graugrun]

Very nice sa_bushwar - I had not yet seen that version of composite tank road wheel before. Although the article mentions the author (?) being with Reumech Ermetek, it is not clear on who developed the wheel, it does also make mention of the Rotary damper developed together with Horstman Defence.

I have found my Allthane brochures in which they confirm their development, production and use of their polyurethane tank wheels - so I wonder if the above was another companies submission, or perhaps one of Allthane's prototypes. I would think the former as it is composite (ceramic?) and Allthane's is specifically stated as being made of polyurethane.

As soon as I get to scan the brochure I will post.

 

[Graugrun]

Here is another odd one, the scatter mine system - I remember this at DEXSA 1992 - it got canned from both lack of funding and the then world-wide start of aversion to the manufacture and sales of mines in general.

Pity I did not have a camera at the time - this poor photocopy is all I have - courtesy Janes Defence Weekly 14 Nov 1992

 

[Graugrun]

I wonder who also remembers this remote control bomb disposal robot (or delivery vehicle as they called it) - I think I took this pic at one of the defence displays at a Rand Easter show many years ago - properly early 90's. I have forgotten it's name and details, I remember Armed Forces/African Armed Forces Journel did a write up on it - I don't think I have it anymore though...

 

[Graugrun]

found these while surfing,hope they were not posted yet

Here is an earlier version/prototype of the Namibian anti-aircraft vehicle

 

[Graugrun]

If there is one thing where the South African defence industry failed most of the time, it was in producing brochures and general marketing material - our commercial Ad industry constantly wins top international awards across the whole marketing spectrum - why did they never make use of them? (properly the obsession with secrecy for one).

Anyway herewith another example of a not so great brochure - however luckily it's the info we're after... two interesting aspects for me, one is that they claim the tank wheel is combat tested - so then these wheels must have been on our Olifant Mk 1A MBT's when they took on the Russian T-55's in Angola (late 1987- early 88)?

The second point is that they clearly state it was part of the armour protection materials - so it would seem to form part of the 'Chobham' type armour I mentioned in an earlier post.

 

[Graugrun]

Looking through the this thread there has been a fair amount of speculation with regards to LZN and TEL...

Well I was shown a 13 minute video yesterday of LZN being put through it's paces on the Gerotek vehicle testing track and going through various other tests/trials. It also showed each and every aspect of the entire vehicle in close up, lingering detail - and believe it or not a fair amount of the field testing was carried out in Botswana of all places!

the video also spent some time showing a team of men (the employers of Special B vehicles) loading and offloading a full pallet of 155mm rounds and other equipment etc. It also covered the possibilities of fire truck versions, fuel tanker versions etc.

It was shown to me by one of the guys who worked on the project (design-wise), and he had the following comments to my questions on it:

1. It was designed as a 6 wheeled vehicle to service both TEL and the G-6 (commonality, practicality and various logistical savings - ease of use etc).
2. The TEL is an 8 wheeled version - LZN always was 6 wheeled, no other vehicle other than the 6 wheeled LZN was designed/built to support the TEL (and G-6)
3. Another country had a very old type of TEL, which had no cross country ability of any sort and was badly in need of a modern, updated replacement - no one could or would dare help them with this. Since our vehicle design/development ability was light years ahead of theirs, they naturally were very keen and eager that we design and build a common TEL vehicle for us both.
4. The design and build is totally our own and had practically no input at all from the other country.
5. It worked very well and had some innovative features to it over any other TEL vehicle in the world at the time.
6. Two TEL's where driven around (mostly at night and never stopping if possible), one disguised as a big old vegetable delivery truck and the other as a well known soft-drink delivery truck.
7. Another of the TEL vehicles was stopped while traveling on the roads by a traffic cop for speeding, he was highly suspicious of the vehicle and refused to believe them that the arm on the back was just a crane - he finally let them go muttering all sorts of words of discontent under his breath.
8. Once we had revealed our nuke program, destroyed our (so called) 7 devices and renounced our further development thereof - all our TEL's where sent to another country with the blessing of a certain superpower.
9. The reason you have not and might never get to see a picture of TEL is that it is possibly still in use by the other country...
10. He says that looking at the drawings of TEL from "Those who had the Power" they are pretty much it - just very slightly out dimension wise (by about half a meter or so) and one or two other small features - but nothing that will alter it's shape dramatically in relation to the real thing in any big way (from what he can recall).
11. Some TEL's did spend a little time at Lohatle at some or other time.
12. The arm on which the RSA 3 rests at Swartkops airbase museum is indeed TEL's arm (so you can actually see some of TEL), the medium blue/grey colour it has been painted is correct as TEL fell under the jurisdiction of the SAAF, and that was the SAAF's spec for it's colour.

Well that's it as I have it- how true or not the above is - is entirely up to you - advert for LZN below (I don't think I have posted it yet...)

BTW I will cover more of the RSA 3 and TEL's arm in the SA missile thread soon enough.

 

[kaiserbill]

Thanks for that detail!

A question about your point number 2:

Is the TEL therefore an 8X8 version of the LZN, or a different vehicle?

 

[Graugrun]

Thanks for that detail!

A question about your point number 2:

Is the TEL therefore an 8X8 version of the LZN, or a different vehicle?

Same drive-line, engine, wheels etc - I don't know any more than that I'm afraid.