SCALP / Storm Shadow / MdCN

I suspect every component would have to be brand new given the age of the previous missiles. I would also think they would probably aim for lower production costs and time.
 
Big moves to fully onshore components. Hopefully successful, but keeping such expensive business alive is going to require regular orders and government credit.
 
Josh_TN said:
I suspect every component would have to be brand new given the age of the previous missiles. I would also think they would probably aim for lower production costs and time.
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zen said:
Big moves to fully onshore components. Hopefully successful, but keeping such expensive business alive is going to require regular orders and government credit.
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And no doubt Mk-2 Storm Shadow will be ITAR-free.
 

France Launches SCALP Mk2 Cruise Missile Development to Strengthen Long-Range Precision Strike​

https://thedefensewatch.com/military-ordnance/france-launches-scalp-mk2-cruise-missile-development/
According to French defense authorities, the upgraded missile will deliver improved guidance, targeting accuracy, and target acquisition performance, ensuring relevance against modern and future air defense environments.
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Not really sure about the veracity of this site but:

https://thedefensewatch.com/product/scalp-mk2-cruise-missile/
RangeOver 1,000 km estimated
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Ukraine seems to have a fair number of SCALP Stormshadow in inventory. There have been several strikes that seemed to use a half dozen to a dozen at once against a high priority target.
 
Has Stormshadow production of new replacement rounds reached full rate yet?
 
NMaude said:
Has Stormshadow production of new replacement rounds reached full rate yet?
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Production is supposed to be ramping up but I can find no hard numbers (unsurprisingly). My guess is that with production resumed, France and UK are willing to let their current inventories run down somewhat, even if there is a short period of relatively low numbers. There’s a lot less pressure now that the total availability is not a fixed number - you can play games with “well we won’t need these for a year at least” or “these needed recertification anyway; if we dump them now we can use that money for new builds”.

I had not realized production was already active now until recently; that alone would explain the modest numbers we are seeing. Even a couple hundred a year probably means that’s a hundred or more older models you are willing to part with.
 
In Ukrainian usage, these used to be launched from Su-24 originally. But I have a hard time believing any of those are still around. Did the Mirage have that capability? The donations are pretty low, but even a half dozen would probably be capable of launching the numbers we are seeing.
 
Josh_TN said:
Did the Mirage have that capability?
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I wouldn't be surprised if they do have the capability.

It has just occurred to me that the UK and France should develop a ground-launched version of the Stormshadow.
 
Josh_TN said:
In Ukrainian usage, these used to be launched from Su-24 originally. But I have a hard time believing any of those are still around. Did the Mirage have that capability? The donations are pretty low, but even a half dozen would probably be capable of launching the numbers we are seeing.
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The first batch of Mirage 2000s transferred in 2025 were standard -5Fs, which are pure air-to-air fighters. There was talk that later transfers might get air-to-ground capability, but it's not clear if that has happened.

It seems likely to me that the March and April Storm Shadow strikes were launched using Su-24s. But it also seems like they need quite a lot of time between operations, so they may be patching up some very battered aircraft.
 
It seems to me some kind of partial F-16 integration will have to happen eventually, assuming that it has not already.
 
Josh_TN said:
In Ukrainian usage, these used to be launched from Su-24 originally. But I have a hard time believing any of those are still around. Did the Mirage have that capability? The donations are pretty low, but even a half dozen would probably be capable of launching the numbers we are seeing.
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From what I understand the Su-24s Ukraine had operational at the beginning of the war were only a fraction of the total airframes they had in inventory with the remainder being in various stages of disrepair. The same applies to MiG-29 and Su-27, their other two major Soviet airplanes in their inventory. After the war started there was a massive effort to examine all airframes and bring back to service what they could and cannibalize the rest. There were some interesting photos of MiG-29s brought back that looked pretty rough (like paint peeling and so on), but otherwise functional. As a result at some point during the war (I think a year or two down) they announced that they actually had more operational aircraft (and I think this was particularly for Su-24) than at the start of the war. In addition, at one point when Kazakhstan sold off a significant (if not all?) of their remaining Soviet aircraft, the US bought them for spare parts for Ukraine.

Of course you have combat loses as a factor, but I think Su-24 losses were bigger at the start of the war, when they were used as tactical bombers and decreased later on when they received stand-off capabilities with the Storm Shadow / SCALP and gliding bombs.

So while their numbers probably peaked around a year into the war then gradually decreased due to combat losses and wear (though I'm sure that in wartime all maintenance schedules are somewhat flexible) but overall I wouldn't be surprised if they still have some flying.

In anyway, considering the Storm Shadow / SCALP production like was restarted it would be smart to integrate it in anything Ukraine is flying and especially on their Mirage 2000s and F-16s - it can't be harder than integrating it on the Su-24 and I'm sure it is being done.
 
I had thought that the Su-27 and Su-24 fleets were especially depleted, because I do not think any NATO members had any examples where as there were MiG-29 replacements. But perhaps a small force soldiers on.

F-16 integration seems the way to go, since it is likely the bulk of the active force by now and probably the airframes with the most life left. Given how quickly Stormshadow was integrated with Su-24, I would actually think it already was integrated with at least some F-16s by now (though probably using some kind of partial integration/middleware solution).
 
The production of the naval cruise missile, which equips French submarines and frigates, is set to resume at MBDA.

The upcoming restart of production of naval cruise missiles (MdCN) highlights the French Navy’s need for these complex munitions, which arm its attack submarines and multi-mission frigates.

A production line for naval cruise missiles (MdCN) will be reopened by MBDA, several years after production was halted due to a lack of French orders, Le Marin has learned. High-intensity warfare and its heavy consumption of complex munitions have led the Ministry of the Armed Forces to reinstate the program. The number of missiles to be purchased under the update of the military programming law is not yet known at this stage.
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https://lemarin.ouest-france.fr/def...hez-mbda-67d732ec-3fe7-11f1-bf08-96ac50387fe7
 
Event_Horizon said:
Of course you have combat loses as a factor, but I think Su-24 losses were bigger at the start of the war, when they were used as tactical bombers and decreased later on when they received stand-off capabilities with the Storm Shadow / SCALP and gliding bombs.
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Ukrainian SU-24 updated for Storm Shadow missions were not bombers...they were Su-24MR Reconaissance variants that were no longer in use (for obvious reasons) as such they were effectively increasing Ukrainian holdings as otherwise they would have had no use. Ukraine had 15 operational SU-24M at the start of the war....9 of those were lost in the first few months as they were on unguided bombing missions......but over 100 SU-24 in storage, including the obsolete MR variant.

We know for a fact that Ukraine has had at least 8 operational SU-24MR....because there have been volleys of at least 16 Storm Shadow....(2 per aircraft).

It's entirely possible that Ukraine now has more operational SU-24 than they did at the start of the war....whether they continue to refurbish and restore flying SU-24M's/MR's or exclusively use the stored SU-24 as a source of parts will be interesting, particularly if they get any supplies of M2000D or if the C is upgraded for SS/SCALP use...
 
Forest Green said:
just going back to this from 2017, is this still correct?

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/146-million-contract-signed-upgrade-storm-shadow-missile/
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Yes, tested at White Sands in 2021. Part of the SPEAR 4 upgrade effort, also called MLU, around 400-450 missiles were planned (for the UK) to go through the MLU which I think concluded in 2024. Italian missiles and (I believe) Saudi and UAE also cycled through the UK for the upgrade, not sure if they all got the same upgrade package though. And in truth I'm not sure if the French upgrade is exactly the same as the UK one. Also not sure if/how many French sold missiles have transited through upgrade as many were more recently sold...
 
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timmymagic said:
Yes, tested at White Sands in 2021. Part of the SPEAR 4 upgrade effort, also called MLU, around 400-450 missiles were planned (for the UK) to go through the MLU which I think concluded in 2024. Italian missiles and (I believe) Saudi and UAE also cycled through, not sure if they all got the same upgrade package though. And in truth I'm not sure if the French upgrade is exactly the same as the UK one.
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I wonder does this allow for AShM capability.
 
I do wonder what effect this SPEAR 4 upgrade will have on the new hypersonic and stealthy cruise missiles that are coming? Will they reduce the total purchase of the newer missiles or will it have no effect on them?
 
FighterJock said:
I do wonder what effect this SPEAR 4 upgrade will have on the new hypersonic and stealthy cruise missiles that are coming? Will they reduce the total purchase of the newer missiles or will it have no effect on them?
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No effect on them?
Suspect that an awful lot of the missiles cycled through the MLU have already been used by the Ukranians.
 
Forest Green said:
I wonder does this allow for AShM capability.
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In short no, unless a vessel is stationary alongside.

FighterJock said:
I do wonder what effect this SPEAR 4 upgrade will have on the new hypersonic and stealthy cruise missiles that are coming? Will they reduce the total purchase of the newer missiles or will it have no effect on them?
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I expect some of the inserted technologies will be used in the FCASW missiles. It wouldn't make sense to reinvent the wheel.

Sintra said:
Suspect that an awful lot of the missiles cycled through the MLU have already been used by the Ukranians.
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Actually we're pretty certain that the missiles given to Ukraine were the non-MLU ones. At the time of the outbreak of the war the UK had a stockpile of >800. Half were going to be MLU'd, so the ones that weren't were sent to Ukraine. France was, pre-war, reducing their overall stockpile from c400 to 100 MLU'd missiles. I do believe that France re-assessed that number after 2022 though...which explains why French SCALP EG donations happened much later than the UK ones and were more limited (strictly speaking if the French had held to that pre-war, 2019, plan they would have had c300 missiles available for donation, alongside the UK's c400, clearly the French have not been in a position to send 300).

But....we also saw a complete drop off of Storm Shadow strikes....none at all for months, and then they restarted with limited numbers, then silence again.....this lines up with the number expended and what we think the UK (in the main) was able to donate of non-MLU'd missiles. I guess the UK was hoping the US would see sense and release early JASSM, and Germany might allow some Taurus transfers. The French then stepped in with a small number of SCALP EG....then there was a break again...and small donations were made by Italy for example. The recent return of limited numbers of Storm Shadow strikes appears to align with production starting up, particularly at St Denis, in a reasonably large volume (sources are saying 240 per year). This would also align with the UK and France having production capacity available post MLU work on their's and others stockpiles (its the same personnel and production cells that do the MLU and new production).
 
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Agreed with that timmymagic about the use of the same technologies that are in Storm Shadow with the FCASW missiles, it would most likely help with keeping the development costs down too.
 
FighterJock said:
I do wonder what effect this SPEAR 4 upgrade will have on the new hypersonic and stealthy cruise missiles that are coming? Will they reduce the total purchase of the newer missiles or will it have no effect on them?
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Sorry missed part of my answer off.

SPEAR 4 should make zero difference apart from perhaps having some new tech/components being directly used in FCASW.

But....Storm Shadow/SCALP EG's continued success in a highly contested AD environment, plus the restart of production, delay of new platforms (SCAF) and confirmation of the actual planned timeframes for the different FCASW missiles may mean that Storm Shadow has a longer life than we all expected.

I'm not expecting Storm Shadow new production to be the reason for reduced purchases of FCASW.....but there are other factors at play that might do so, such as other long range strike options becoming available for partner nations and lower cost munitions being developed for Ukraine like Brakestop. Basically the world that FCASW was being built for has changed....there will be other ranged options that have a call on the budget...and very expensive, exquisite, systems may still be regarded as necessary...but not as a 'standard' munition.

I do wonder if the change of the TP15 design from the original models with extreme LO to a more 'Storm Shadow' like shape has anything to do with that.....
 
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SCALP Naval an option?
Considering TLAM replacement production is busy with domestic US demand.....

And Considering SCALP production line already exists in the UK, RAF is very happy with the mission planning system.
MBDA could offer, with French blessing, this as 'interim' to Stratus Lo......and get RN to pay for Mk41 integration.
Opening up further sales opportunities.

And Considering Stratus RS seems more priority to the MN......
 
zen said:
SCALP Naval an option?
Considering TLAM replacement production is busy with domestic US demand.....

And Considering SCALP production line already exists in the UK, RAF is very happy with the mission planning system.
MBDA could offer, with French blessing, this as 'interim' to Stratus Lo......and get RN to pay for Mk41 integration.
Opening up further sales opportunities.

And Considering Stratus RS seems more priority to the MN......
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Given timelines for TP15 arrival and when T26 is operational with Mk.41 there is zero need to integrate MdCN. They should arrive pretty much simultaneous. Realistically you wouldn't get MdCN delivered AND integrated with Mk.41 and UK combat systems before then either...

However....unless the US re-establishes encapsulated TLAM production the UK might find itself in a pickle if it needs to expend any of its TLAM holdings over the next 15 years...(until AUKUS with VL arrives). Even then it will take a few years for sufficient AUKUS to be in place so the TLAM stockpile has to hold out, or encapsulated production has to restart and provide TLAM for at least 20+ years...the only option in that circumstance would be a purchase of MdCN as TP15 or RJ10 will not fit in torpedo tubes. EDIT: Or accept dramatically reduced capability for land attack by purchasing NSM-SL (when and if it becomes available).
 
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Titus K said:
I wonder if germany will buy some, since they can't get Tomahawk.
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A good question! Unless the US changes its tune on such sales soon I'd say that it's very likely Germany would buy these Storm Shadow variants as a short-term solution (And the launchers too if they don't already have a suitable compatible launcher in service).​
 

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