SABCA Aircraft List

[hesham]

Hi,

I hope here we can talk about SABCA aircraft list,honestly it had two series,the first began from early years when
the company was formed in 1920,start with S-1 to S-51 and maybe more up to 1939,in the second was taken over
when the firm re-open after the WWII and in 1948 the second sequence was appeared from S-50,S-60 and up to
S-1XX as I know,and there was no relationship between it and the prewar unknown Project S-50.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

Gambier-SABCA was a glider,but no more details
Camgul was a single seat biplane light aircraft of 1925,powered by one 60 hp Anzani engine
SABCA-Jullien SJ.1 was a single seat high-wing motor glider monoplane of 1923,powered by one 18 hp Dougals
engine
Poncelet Castar was a single seat high-wing motor glider monoplane of 1923,powered by one 18 hp engine
S.1 or DP was an ugly little braced high-wing monoplane,which had enclosed accommodated for one pilot and
one passenger,powered by on 50 hp Anzani engine,1926/27
S.2 was a cantilever high-wing light transport monoplane of 1926,powered by one 240 hp Siddeley Puma engine
S.3 was a high-wing medium transport/bomber monoplane Project of 1926,powered by three 361 hp engines
S.4 was a single seat sesquiplane all metal fighter Project of 1926,powered by one 450 hp engine
S.5 to S.10 -------?
S.11 was a high-wing medium transport monoplane of 1928,developed from S.3,powered by three 420 hp SABAC
Jupiter engines
S.12 was a high-wing light transport monoplane of 1930,could accommodated four passenger,powered by three
120 hp Renault engines
S.13 Junior was a single seat high-wing ultra-light glider of 1930,need confirm
S.14 was a two-seat parasol wing recce monoplane Project of 1931,intended to compete Renard R.31,powered by one
240 hp Lorraine Mizar engine
S.15 to S.19 ------?
S.20 was a three-seat cabin monoplane of braced high-wing of 1935,powered by one 130 hp Walter Major engine
S.21 to S.29 ------?
S.30 was a side-by-side two-seat light high-wing braced monoplane of 1936,powered by one 40 hp Sarolea Aiglon
engine
S.31 to S.39 ------?
S.40 was a tandem two-seat low-wing military trainer monoplane of 1938,powered by one 140 hp Renault 4Pei
engine
S.41 ------?
S.42 was a tandem two-seat fighter-trainer low-wing monoplane Project of 1938,a modern version of S.40,powered
by one Rolls-Royce Kestrel IIS engine
S.43 & S.44 ------?
S.45 was a licence built Caproni Ca.135
S.46 was a licence built Caproni Ca.310
S.47 was a licence built Caproni Ca.335
S.48 was a licence built Caproni Ca.312
S.49 & S.50 ------?
S.51 was a low-wing medium multi-role transport monoplane Project of 1938,had twin tail fin and very similat to
Douglas DC-2,powered by two engines

Post WWII aircraft List;

S.50 was a tandem two-seat low-wing modern trainer and acrobatic monoplane Project of 1948,powered by one
engine
S.60 was a two-seat low-wing transition jet trainer between the Stampe&Vertongen S-V4bis and the Hawker 'Hunter',
powered by two Turbomeca engines,Project of 1951
S.70 was anther trainer Project,but no more details are known
S.80 to S.XXX ------?

 

[Apophenia]

Excellent work, hesham. I noticed one typo - 'Gambier-SABCA'. Gambier was a French designer - unconnected with SABCA - who built a Bleriot-type monoplane in 1909 (distinguished only by its underset triangular rudder.

The SABCA-built aircraft you are looking for was a 1924 motor-glider designed by Albert Cambier - the Cambier AC 1. Albert Cambier had another SABCA connection through one of its employees - Jef Guldentops. Before Guldentops left SABCA (c.1929), he helped Cambier with the CG 2 Camgul single-bay biplane trainer.

I had thought that I'd posted my SABCA list but I guess I had neglected to. It has a few added details which might be of interest to some. So, I will post my lists below.

 

[Apophenia]

SABCA Aircraft Designations
Société Anonyme Belge de Constructions Aéronautiques - Haren (Brussels), Belgium

SABCA was established in December 16 1920 at the initiative of Georges Nélis (also the founder and director of SNETA, later SABENA). Initially, SABCA had a monopoly on supplying both SNETA and the Belgian Air Force (Militaire Vliegwezen/Aéronautique Militaire).

Much of the detail and project designations comes from Les avions SABCA et associés, prototypes et projets by Charles Mali, 2005. Most SABCA aircraft designs were assigned an 'S' designation ... but not all. There are a host of missing SABCA 'S' designations. Since 'S' designations were applied to some license-built types - the Capronis being best-known - it is possible that other licensed aircraft types also had 'S' designations applied internally. If so, those numbers are unknown to date. Or, perhaps, SABCA was simply erratic in its application of 'S' designations to license-built types?

I will list SABCA 'S' designations in my next post.

Mis-assignment of 'SABCA' to Designations

It has become common to assign the SABCA name to all airframes built at Haren. However, SABCA built a number of airframes under contract to designers - both employees and outside designers. I will post these 'outside' designs separately, listing them alphabetically.

The problem with lumping all such airframes under their constructor is that we end up with
spurious designation like 'SABCA S.2bis' applied to Renard's second prototype Épervier Type 2bis fighter. [1] Although Alfred Renard once worked for SABCA, I've found no evidence of a SABCA designation being applied to Renard's Épervier Type 2bis airframe.

Most 'internal' SABCA aircraft designs were assigned an 'S' designation. Most exceptions were aircraft constructions commission by other designers and balloons, eg:

SABCA 600m3 - 1929 balloon, cn 3, O-BBEM
- Becomes SABCA 650m3 balloon OO-BEM

A few other aircraft types 'slip through the net'. The SABCA DP was simply a 1925 rebranding of the 1924 Demonty Poncelet Cyrano. Perhaps this was because SABCA thought that this light cabin monoplane might have serial production potential? hesham lists the DP as SABCA's S.1 but I haven't come across that reference.

Another example is the SABCA Junior basic training glider. Perhaps that Zögling analogue also once held a SABCA 'S' designation? hesham lists the Junior as SABCA's S.13. Who knows ...

__________________________________________

[1] The Épervier was a Renard Constructions Aéronautiques creation. The first Épervier - the Type 2 - had been built by Stampe & Vertongen. But, since Alfred Renard was both chief designer for Renard and technical director of Stampe, it is hard to keep the two firms separate. The Type 2 was lost in a spin on 11 Sept 1928. The second prototype - the Type 2bis - was built by SABCA under contract for Alfred Renard.

 

[Apophenia]

SABCA 'S' Designations

SABCA S.1 -- (??) hesham lists SABCA DP as the S.1
-- I have seen it listed as 'D.P.1'* but not as 'S.1'
-- * Flight, August 12, 1926, page 490
-- * The French Light 'Plane Competition at Orly'

SABCA S.2 -- 1926 high-winged cabin monoplane, 14.9 m span
- S.2: 1 x 230 hp Siddeley Puma 6-cyl inline, x 1 (O-BAIA)
-- All-metal structure (intended for SABENA's Congo service)
-- http://www.belgian-wings.be/webpages/navigator/photos/civilpics/first_register/Sabca S2 Sport O-BAIA/Sabca_S2 FNAR.pdf
-- S-2: aka SABCA 2, aka S 2 Sport, aka SD 2 Sport

SABCA S.3 -- (Project) high-winged monoplane trimotor transport*
- S.3: Intended to repl. SABENA H-P W.8f in the Belgian Congo
- S.3: 1 x 360 hp RR Eagle IX, 2 x 240 hp Siddeley Puma
-- * S.3 to be transformable into airliner or bomber/transport
-- de Glymes Colanhan (qv) glider tested scaled S.3 wing
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/for...HPSESSID=9g4blufifimf6j7i9rcvfv3276#msg183402

SABCA S.4 -- (Project) single-engined sesquiplane* fighter
- S.4: 1 x 450 hp engine (either HS V-12 or Jupiter)**
-- * Really unequal-span biplane, all-metal const., 2 x MGs
-- ** SABCA intended to licence Jupiter "Type K"
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18619.msg214648.html#msg214648

SABCA S.5 -- (??)

SABCA S.6 -- (??)

SABCA S.7 -- (??)

SABCA S.8 -- (??)

SABCA S.9 -- (??)

SABCA S.10 - (??)

SABCA S.11 - 1931 high-winged trimotor airliner (3 + 20 pax)
- S.11: 3 x 420 hp SABCA Jupiter,* 16.9 m span, 1 built
-- * Built by SABCA under a license from Gnome-Rhone
- S.11: Designed by Henri Jullien for use in Belgian Congo
-- http://www.fnar.be/avionsjpdecocq/Sabca_S11pwd.pdf
- S.11: aka SABCA S.XI (according to Flight)
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1931/1931 - 0947.html

SABCA S.12 - 1931 high-winged trimotor feederliner (1-2 + 4 pax)
- S.12: 3 x 120 hp Renard radials, 18.1 m span, 1 built*
-- * OO-AMD (some sources list OO-AMJ but neither official)
-- Designed by Henri Jullien and Wladimir Wulfson, 1930
-- http://www.fnar.be/avionsjpdecocq/SabcaS12_pwd.pdf
-- http://www.asa-be.com/images/PhotoGallery_BCR2/OO-AAA/OO-AMJ.jpg
- S.12: aka SABCA S.XII (according to Flight)
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1931/1931 - 1315.html

SABCA S.13 - (Project) SXIII army observation aircraft

SABCA S.14 - (Project) 1931 2-seat parasol recce aircraft
- S.14 : Design by Wladimir Wulfson, [1] aka SABCA S XIV
- S.14 : 1 x 240 hp Lorraine Mizar radial,* span 17.00 m
-- S.14 to compete w/ Renard 100 (winner as Renard R.31)
-- * A range of engines considered in 225-to-250 hp range [2]

SABCA S.15 - (??) See reply #12
SABCA S.16 - (??) See reply #12
SABCA S.17 - (??) See reply #12
SABCA S.18 - (??) See reply #12
SABCA S.19 - (??) See reply #12

SABCA S.20 - 1935 high-winged cabin tourer, 11 m span
- S.20: Libellule, 1 x 120 hp Walter Major 4-cyl, OO-APU
-- Designed by SABCA's chief engineer, Robert Servais
-- Libellule name inspired by elliptical wing planform
-- http://www.fnar.be/avionsjpdecocq/SabcaS20_CharlesMalipwd.pdf

SABCA S.21 - (??) See reply #12
SABCA S.22 - (??) See reply #12
SABCA S.23 - (??) See reply #12
SABCA S.24 - (??) See reply #12
SABCA S.25 - (??) See reply #12
SABCA S.26 - (??) See reply #12
SABCA S.27 - (??) See reply #12
SABCA S.28 - (??) See reply #12
SABCA S.29 - (??) See reply #12

SABCA S.30 - 1937 parasol 2-seat (side-by-side) light a/c, x 1
- S.30: 1 x 40 hp Saroléa Aiglon V-2,* 10.90 m span
- S.30: (Re-engined) 40 hp Praga B.2 air-cooled HO 2-cyl
-- OO-AVB (c/n 1), primarily wooden construction
-- * Saroléa was a Belgian motorcycle manufacturer

SABCA S.40 - 1939 tandem 2-seat low-wing monoplane trainer
- S.40E: E for 'Ecolage et entraînement', x 1 (OO-ATG)
- S.40E: 140 hp Renault 4 Pei Bengali, 12.74 m span*
-- * Other sources list S.40E as having a 10.40 m span
-- http://www.belgian-wings.be/images/sabca/sabca_s40.jpg

SABCA S.41 - (??)

SABCA S.42 - (Project) 1938 low-wing 2-seat fighter-trainer
- S.42: Up-scaled, higher-powered S.40 development
- S.42: 1 x 525 hp R-R Kestrel IIS, span 8.20 m

SABCA S.43 - (??)
SABCA S.44 - (??)

SABCA S.45 - (Project) proposed licensed Caproni Ca.135
- S.45: Medium bomber, 2 x 1,000hp Piaggio P.XI RC.40
-- aka SABCA S.45a, aka SABCA S.45 bis*
-- * Listed as SABCA S.45bis by SIRIS, Smithsonian NASM

SABCA S.46 - (Project) proposed licensed Caproni Ca.310
- S.46: Recce-bomber, 2 x 470 hp Piaggio P.VIII C.35

SABCA S.47 - 1939 licensed Caproni Ca.335, recce-bomber,* x 1
- S.47: Italian-built prototype (OO-ATH), flown Feb 1939
-- * Planned Fairey Fox replacement, MV/AM option on 24 a/c
-- http://www.fnar.be/avionsjpdecocq/SabcaS47_CharlesMalipwd.pdf

SABCA S.48 - (Project) proposed licensed Caproni Ca.312
- S.48: Ca.310 develp., 2 x 700 hp Piaggio P.XVI RC.35

SABCA S.49 - (??) Poss. proposed licensed Caproni Ca.313*
-- * I-F Delta-powered Ca.312 deriv., MV/AM ordered x 24

SABCA S.50 - (??) Pre-WW2 project? No details

SABCA S.50 - (Project) 1948 2-seat trainer/aerobatic a/c
- S.50: Tandem-seat low-wing trainer/aerobatic monoplane
- S.50: 1 x (hp ??) DH Gipsy Major 16, span 16.20 m
-- S.50 to have cockpit canopies and fixed undercarriage
-- S.50 listed by SIRIS, Smithsonian NASM

SABCA S.51 - (Project) 1938 medium transport monoplane
- S.51: Douglas DC-2 analogue but with twin tails
- S.51: 2 x (hp ??) engine (type ??), span 10.80 m
-- Low-wing a/c, poss. related to licensed PZL.37*
-- * Although S.51 has a simpler, tapered planform

SABCA S.52 - (??)
SABCA S.53 - (??)
SABCA S.54 - (??)
SABCA S.55 - (??)
SABCA S.56 - (??)
SABCA S.57 - (??)
SABCA S.58 - (??)
SABCA S.59 - (??)

SABCA S.60 - (Project) 1951 2-seat tandem jet trainer
- S.60: Swept wings and tailplane, jet in wing roots
- S.60: 2 x 880 lbf Turbomeca Marboré turbojets, span (??) m*
-- * Wing area listed by Mali at 13.26 m2
-- http://www.belgian-wings.be/images/sabca/image006.jpg
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1767.0

SABCA S.70 - (??) Trainer project?

____________________________________

[1] Wladimir Wulfson also sketched out the S XIV concept as a sesquiplane with Warren Truss interplane bracing struts.

[2] Potential engine suppliers for the S.14 included: Alfa-Romeo D (225 hp); Packard Diesel (228 hp); Salmson 9AB (230 hp); Renard 200 (235 hp); Gnome-Rhone Titan K, Lorraine Mizar, and Walter Castor (240 hp); and, Farman 9Eb 1/4, Renault 9PA, and Wright Whirlwind (250 hp). The Packard and Farman engines were eliminated early on in the design process, mainly due to their size was perceived as excessive.

 

[Apophenia]

SABCA Aircraft Without 'S' Designations

These are designs which don't seem to have SABCA 'S' designations. Some of these types were built by SABCA on behalf of other manufacturers. Most were designs by SABCA staff (but not SABCA projects ... although a few seem to get 'absorbed' by SABCA). Many have 'outside' designations. Of those, the designation acronyms can be explained as ...

- AC : As in AC 1, after designer Albert Cambier
-- Cambier was exploration service director for SNETA/SABENA

- CG : As in CG 2, after designers Cambier-Guldentops

- DP : Or D.P., from the design team of Demonty and Poncelet
-- Ing. Mathieu Demonty was SABCA's Technical Director
-- Paul Poncelet was the head of SABCA's wood-working shop

- SJ : As in SJ-1/SJ-1A, for SABCA-Jullien joint project

- SHBP: For design/build team Simonet, Haus, Bulte, & Poncelet*
-- * 'Pelletier' in 1970 SABCA brochure according to Guy Roberty
-- Source: Les Vieilles Tiges de Belgique, 15 Nov 1999, unpaginated
-- 'L'Oiseau Rare du No 42: L'Avi ette EMA / FABRY / SHBP'
-- Lt. Victor Simonet killed in Castar crash, Vauville 1925

NB: In this section, I have omitted those aircraft designs license-built by SABCA but which have no (known) 'S' designations.
____________________________________

Cambier AC 1 - 1924 single-seat moto-aviette
- Cambier AC 1: Wire-braced* shoulder-wing monoplane
- Cambier AC 1: 1 x 17 hp Sergant 4-cyl, span 10.20 m
-- * Kingpost mounted directly in front of cockpit
-- NB: SABCA not directly involved in the design of AC 1
-- O-BAFI Belgian 2,000 m record (1 hr 10 min) 29 May 1924
-- Engine failed on return to Évère and was crash landed

Cambier CG 2 Camgul - 1925 single-engined biplane trainer*
- CG 2 Camgul: Kingpost wire-braced shoulder-wing monoplane
- CG 2 Camgul: 1 x 60 hp Anzani 6-cyl, span (??) m
-- aka Cambier-Guldentops CG 2, aka SABCA CG 2
-- * Some sources list as 2-seat (shared cockpit?)
-- Desig./name contraction of designers Cambier and Guldentops
-- http://forum.keypublishing.com/atta...d2eebbd0dcc6&attachmentid=217602&d=1371211291

De Glymes Colanhan- 1925 single-seat glider, 12.3 m span, x 1 (O-BAFR)
- De Glymes Colanhan: Raoul de Glymes de Hollebecque* design
-- * M de Glymes de Hollebecque was an engineer at SABCA
-- Optional motoglider config., 1 x 70 hp Anzani 6-cylinder radial
-- Colanhan served as wing testbed for SABCA S.3 project

Jullien SJ-1 - 1923 single-seat monoplane motor-glider, x 2*
- SJ-1 : Shoulder-wing design by SABCA's Ing. Henri Jullien
-- aka SABCA-Jullien, hence 'SJ' in designation
- SJ-1 : As built, 1 x 5 hp Douglas HO 2-cyl., span 13.25 m
- SJ-1 : As re-engined, 1 x 16 hp Salmson 3-cyl radial
- SJ-1A: More power, raised u/c, oval-section rear fuselage
- SJ.1A: 1 x 16 hp Sergant A upright 4-cyl, 13.40 m span**
- SJ-1A: As re-engined, 1 x 30 hp ABC Scorpion HO 2-cyl.
-- * SABCA-built - O-BAFF in July 1923; O-BAFJ in May 1924
-- ** Representing a 21 m2 increase in wing area
-- Jullien was the Chief Engineer of SABCA's study bureau
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1923/1923 - 0737.html
-- http://www.fnar.be/avionsjpdecocq/Sabca–JullienSJ1pwd.pdf
-- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php?code=2054

LACAB GR-8 - 1936 prototype of 2-engined biplane recce-bomber
- GR-8: Designed by SABCA engineers Servais and Wulfson
-- Some sources say that GR-8 prototype was built by SABCA
-- Designation is for: 8th design, Grande Reconnaissance

Mulot Labor - 1925 single-seat parasol light a/c, x 1
- Labor: M Mulot design, SABCA-built, O-BAFS/OO-AFS
- Labor: 1 x 18 hp/16 cv Vaslin HO 4-cyl*
-- * 24 hp? - http://home.comcast.net/~aeroengine/Vaslin.html
-- Vauville Meeting 1925, pilot Chouillou, aka Moto Aviette Mulot
-- http://claudel.dopp.free.fr/Les_planeurs/Histoire/Vauville-1925/images/n33_Mulot_Labor.jpg
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1925/1925 - 0454.html
-- (??) Connected to the Évère workshops of André Mulot (??)
-- (??) Anyone have Mulet article in Trait d'Union No.235 (??)
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/early-belgian-projects.23892/#post-241814

Poncelet Castar - 1921 single-seat, shoulder-winged motor-glider
- Castar: 1 x 18 hp Sergant 4-cyl., 11.00 m span
-- Designed by Paul Poncelet, head of SABCA woodshop, x 1
-- 'Castar' is a Belgian euphemism for 'beefy'

Poncelet Vivette - 1925 single-seat motor-glider*
- Vivette: Shoulder-winged monoplane design
-- * Convertible into an unpowered 2-seat glider
- Vivette: 1 x 750 cc Sergant 4-cyl., 11.12 m span**
-- One prototype Vivette built (O-BAFH, restored 1995)
-- ** Some sources claim a 13 metre wing span
-- http://tagazous.free.fr/affichage2.php?img=13769
-- http://claudel.dopp.free.fr/Les_planeurs/Descriptions_planeurs/Poncelet_Vivette/Poncelet-Vivette.htm

Renard Épervier* - 1927 single-seat fighter, x 1
- Épervier: Parasol monoplane of all-metal const.
- Épervier: 1 x 480 hp Jupiter,** span 10.20 m
-- * Épervier Type 2bis, repl. 2nd prototype
-- ** Orig. designed for 700 hp Hispano-Suiza 12N engine
-- ** Some sources say SABCA, some Gnome-Rhône Jupiter
-- Alfred Renard design, reg. OO-AKN before sale to MV/AM

SABCA DP - 1924 high-winged 2-seat light cabin monoplane, x 2*
- DP: From 'Demonty Poncelet', aka SABCA-DP limousine
- DP: 1 x 40 hp Grégoire inverted 4-cyl., [1] span 12.00 m
- DP: (1925 re-engining) 1 x 50 hp Anzani 6-cyl. radial [2]
-- Calculations by Mathieu Demonty, built by Paul Poncelet
-- Orig. Demonty-Poncelet Cyrano, renamed SABCA DP in 1925
-- * O-BAFL/OO-AFL 'Cyrano', O-BAFV, 1 x 40 hp Anzani [1]
-- ** Flight lists engine as 40 hp Grégoire inverted 4-cyl
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1924/1924 - 0474.htm
-- 3v: https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1924/1924 - 0475.html
-- https://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/Hancock/4182.htm
-- http://www.fnar.be/avionsjpdecocq/Sabca_DPpwd.pdf

SABCA Junior - 1930 single-seat 'planeur-poutre'*
- Junior: Henri Jullien design, A & B ticket trainer
- Junior: Inspired by German Zögling, x 4
-- * 'Frame glider', horiz. tail diff. from Zögling
-- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php?code=2040

Simonet SHBP - 1925 parasol light a/c, 1 x 40 hp Anzani radial
- SHBP: O-BAFQ, June 1925; OO-AKF 1930 (c/n 1); O-BAJO (former O-BAFQ)
-- aka SABCA Simonet SHBP, aka 'Aviette Sabca'
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1925/1925 - 0522.html

__________________________________________

[1] The DP's Grégoire was of 1913 vintage. I mention the date because Moteurs d'Aviation Grégoire-Gyp was gone by 1924 (with its Poissy plant having been sold in 1923). Some sources list the Grégoire's output as 43 hp.

[2] Charles Mali lists O-BAFL with a 50 cv Anzani, O-BAFV with a 70 cv Anzani.

 

[hesham]

Amazing work as usual my dear Apophenia,

but it had two series,the beginning after WWII was from S.50 to S.XXX,the old series ended in S.5X,but
they repeated using S.50 again.

 

[Apophenia]

Thanks hesham. About that postwar S.50 trainer ... despite its stylish cockpit canopies, it looks a very dated design. I wonder, might the postwar S.50 be a modernization of the otherwise unknown prewar S.50 design?

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Apophenia,

and I don't think so,but maybe you are right.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

the SJ.2.

100 bougies pour la SABCA (1ère partie 1920-1940)

Bruxelles, 5 février 2020. Mr. Thibauld Jongen, CEO du groupe SABCA, annonce que Dassault Belgique Aviation SA (DBA,)…

www.hangarflying.eu

 

[hesham]

From Ailes

 

[chama52]

Hi,

I hope here we can talk about SABCA aircraft list,honestly it had two series,the first began from early years when
the company was formed in 1920,start with S-1 to S-51 and maybe more up to 1939,in the second was taken over
when the firm re-open after the WWII and in 1948 the second sequence was appeared from S-50,S-60 and up to
S-1XX as I know,and there was no relationship between it and the prewar unknown Project S-50.

Hello, Here is the Renard-SABCA, a new and original discovery. The SJ1A is the same as SJ2. Project S.13 Rolls-Royce Biplane 1932 S15 to S19, S21 to S29, S31 to S39 do not exist The S 40 is always S 40E New series after the war S50 and S 60. Nothing afterwards!

 

[hesham]

Many thanks,and welcome aboard,

and what was S.13 acivil or military biplane ?,also jow you sure about
those series was not existed ?.

 

[chama52]

Hi,

I hope here we can talk about SABCA aircraft list,honestly it had two series,the first began from early years when
the company was formed in 1920,start with S-1 to S-51 and maybe more up to 1939,in the second was taken over
when the firm re-open after the WWII and in 1948 the second sequence was appeared from S-50,S-60 and up to
S-1XX as I know,and there was no relationship between it and the prewar unknown Project S-50.

Hi,

the SJ.2.

100 bougies pour la SABCA (1ère partie 1920-1940)

Bruxelles, 5 février 2020. Mr. Thibauld Jongen, CEO du groupe SABCA, annonce que Dassault Belgique Aviation SA (DBA,)…

www.hangarflying.eu

SJ1a = SJ2

Many thanks,and welcome aboard,

and what was S.13 acivil or military biplane ?,also jow you sure about
those series was not existed ?.

The SXIII was an army observation aircraft project. You can never be sure, but I have been writing and researching sabca since +/- 2000. SABCA aircraft and associates, prototypes and projects. SABCA From the origins to the F-104G (1920-1963) and SABCA du Mirage to the century of existence (1964-2020)

 

[hesham]

Thank you Chama52,

but what is you source which ensured that,those designation numbers
were not used or existed ?.

 

[chama52]

Thank you Chama52,

but what is you source which ensured that,those designation numbers
were not used or existed ?.

The Brussels Air Museum, Guy Roberty's notes and an archive collection by Wladimir Wulfson LACAB. It was I who discovered the S13, S14, S42 and S51. The S60 is the latest project. SABCA never studied planes again after the war, it only made assemblies and manufacturing under licenses, except in space. Are you talking about an S70? Where does the information come from?

 

[chama52]

Do you know Rutan's Predator 480? Here is an excerpt from my book SABCA T2 (1964-2020)
Predator 480 - codename “NESS”
In 1983 the American entrepreneurs Dave Record and Burt Rutan were looking for an industrial partner to
develop the Predator 480, an all-composite crop-spraying aircraft. Pierre George Willekens who was convinced of
the necessity to diversify into composites construction, promoted the project to the Board of Directors. It was
agreed to produce a demonstration model. The first phase, the manufacture of a demonstration model (6), was planned
to take about fifteen months and required $ 2,200,000 (7). Since the project was confidential, it received the
codename “NESS” (New Experimental Spraying System).
An association which included Scaled Composite Inc (responsible for the manufacturing of the demonstration
model), ATAC (Advanced Technology Aircraft Co, in charge of the marketing) and SABCA (responsible for financing
the development and in charge of commercial production) was created. The Predator, registered N 480 AG, made
its maiden flight in Mojave (California) on 17th September 1984. A two-month test campaign highlighted low-speed
stall problems requiring the modification of the centre of gravity and the canard wing’s profile. In January 1985 after
modification tests had been satisfactorily completed, ATAC received the prototype in April 1985 and installed the cropspraying equipment for evaluation. The goal was to present the machine at the Las Vegas Agricultural Fair at the end
of the year. In the meantime, SABCA’s management was addressing its Board of Directors to obtain an additional $
4,700,000 required for the second phase of the program.
This concerned the industrialisation, manufacturing and certification of three prototypes (8). The Board of Directors
was reluctant to grant the necessary funds and asked for new guarantees. The Board decided to send to the United
States a mission composed of specialists from Dassault Aviation (for the technical aspects) and from Fokker (for the
commercial aspects). The assessment was positive, but proved insufficient given the large amount of investment
required. The Board believed the project was too risky for SABCA and decided on 7th May 1985 to stop the project.
SABCA’s management still tried in vain to convince the Board by proposing to build the aircraft in a new low
production cost division. All hope disappeared on 21st August 1985 when the Predator crashed on take-off due
to pilot error. SABCA tried in vain to recover the wreck and to find another company interested in the project (9). The
program remained confidential for a long time and was totally unknown to the general public. It came to be known
as the “monster of the Loch Ness” within the company.

 

[chama52]

SABCA Aircraft Without 'S' Designations

These are designs which don't seem to have SABCA 'S' designations. Some of these types were built by SABCA on behalf of other manufacturers. Most were designs by SABCA staff (but not SABCA projects ... although a few seem to get 'absorbed' by SABCA). Many have 'outside' designations. Of those, the designation acronyms can be explained as ...

- AC : As in AC 1, after designer Albert Cambier
-- Cambier was exploration service director for SNETA/SABENA

- CG : As in CG 2, after designers Cambier-Guldentops

- DP : Or D.P., from the design team of Demonty and Poncelet
-- Ing. Mathieu Demonty was SABCA's Technical Director
-- Paul Poncelet was the head of SABCA's wood-working shop

- SJ : As in SJ-1/SJ-1A, for SABCA-Jullien joint project

- SHBP: For design/build team Simonet, Haus, Bulte, & Poncelet*
-- * 'Pelletier' in 1970 SABCA brochure according to Guy Roberty
-- Source: Les Vieilles Tiges de Belgique, 15 Nov 1999, unpaginated
-- 'L'Oiseau Rare du No 42: L'Avi ette EMA / FABRY / SHBP'
-- Lt. Victor Simonet killed in Castar crash, Vauville 1925

NB: In this section, I have omitted those aircraft designs license-built by SABCA but which have no (known) 'S' designations.
____________________________________

Cambier AC 1 - 1924 single-seat moto-aviette
- Cambier AC 1: Wire-braced* shoulder-wing monoplane
- Cambier AC 1: 1 x 17 hp Sergant 4-cyl, span 10.20 m
-- * Kingpost mounted directly in front of cockpit
-- NB: SABCA not directly involved in the design of AC 1
-- O-BAFI Belgian 2,000 m record (1 hr 10 min) 29 May 1924
-- Engine failed on return to Évère and was crash landed

Cambier CG 2 Camgul - 1925 single-engined biplane trainer*
- CG 2 Camgul: Kingpost wire-braced shoulder-wing monoplane
- CG 2 Camgul: 1 x 60 hp Anzani 6-cyl, span (??) m
-- aka Cambier-Guldentops CG 2, aka SABCA CG 2
-- * Some sources list as 2-seat (shared cockpit?)
-- Desig./name contraction of designers Cambier and Guldentops
-- http://forum.keypublishing.com/atta...d2eebbd0dcc6&attachmentid=217602&d=1371211291

De Glymes Colanhan- 1925 single-seat glider, 12.3 m span, x 1 (O-BAFR)
- De Glymes Colanhan: Raoul de Glymes de Hollebecque* design
-- * M de Glymes de Hollebecque was an engineer at SABCA
-- Optional motoglider config., 1 x 70 hp Anzani 6-cylinder radial
-- Colanhan served as wing testbed for SABCA S.3 project

Jullien SJ-1 - 1923 single-seat monoplane motor-glider, x 2*
- SJ-1 : Shoulder-wing design by SABCA's Ing. Henri Jullien
-- aka SABCA-Jullien, hence 'SJ' in designation
- SJ-1 : As built, 1 x 5 hp Douglas HO 2-cyl., span 13.25 m
- SJ-1 : As re-engined, 1 x 16 hp Salmson 3-cyl radial
- SJ-1A: More power, raised u/c, oval-section rear fuselage
- SJ.1A: 1 x 16 hp Sergant A upright 4-cyl, 13.40 m span**
- SJ-1A: As re-engined, 1 x 30 hp ABC Scorpion HO 2-cyl.
-- * SABCA-built - O-BAFF in July 1923; O-BAFJ in May 1924
-- ** Representing a 21 m2 increase in wing area
-- Jullien was the Chief Engineer of SABCA's study bureau
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1923/1923 - 0737.html
-- http://www.fnar.be/avionsjpdecocq/Sabca–JullienSJ1pwd.pdf
-- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php?code=2054

LACAB GR-8 - 1936 prototype of 2-engined biplane recce-bomber
- GR-8: Designed by SABCA engineers Servais and Wulfson
-- Some sources say that GR-8 prototype was built by SABCA
-- Designation is for: 8th design, Grande Reconnaissance

Mulot Labor - 1925 single-seat parasol light a/c, x 1
- Labor: M Mulot design, SABCA-built, O-BAFS/OO-AFS
- Labor: 1 x 18 hp/16 cv Vaslin HO 4-cyl*
-- * 24 hp? - http://home.comcast.net/~aeroengine/Vaslin.html
-- Vauville Meeting 1925, pilot Chouillou, aka Moto Aviette Mulot
-- http://claudel.dopp.free.fr/Les_planeurs/Histoire/Vauville-1925/images/n33_Mulot_Labor.jpg
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1925/1925 - 0454.html
-- (??) Connected to the Évère workshops of André Mulot (??)
-- (??) Anyone have Mulet article in Trait d'Union No.235 (??)
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/early-belgian-projects.23892/#post-241814

Poncelet Castar - 1921 single-seat, shoulder-winged motor-glider
- Castar: 1 x 18 hp Sergant 4-cyl., 11.00 m span
-- Designed by Paul Poncelet, head of SABCA woodshop, x 1
-- 'Castar' is a Belgian euphemism for 'beefy'

Poncelet Vivette - 1925 single-seat motor-glider*
- Vivette: Shoulder-winged monoplane design
-- * Convertible into an unpowered 2-seat glider
- Vivette: 1 x 750 cc Sergant 4-cyl., 11.12 m span**
-- One prototype Vivette built (O-BAFH, restored 1995)
-- ** Some sources claim a 13 metre wing span
-- http://tagazous.free.fr/affichage2.php?img=13769
-- http://claudel.dopp.free.fr/Les_planeurs/Descriptions_planeurs/Poncelet_Vivette/Poncelet-Vivette.htm

Renard Épervier* - 1927 single-seat fighter, x 1
- Épervier: Parasol monoplane of all-metal const.
- Épervier: 1 x 480 hp Jupiter,** span 10.20 m
-- * Épervier Type 2bis, repl. 2nd prototype
-- ** Orig. designed for 700 hp Hispano-Suiza 12N engine
-- ** Some sources say SABCA, some Gnome-Rhône Jupiter
-- Alfred Renard design, reg. OO-AKN before sale to MV/AM

SABCA DP - 1924 high-winged 2-seat light cabin monoplane, x 2*
- DP: From 'Demonty Poncelet', aka SABCA-DP limousine
- DP: 1 x 40 hp Grégoire inverted 4-cyl., [1] span 12.00 m
- DP: (1925 re-engining) 1 x 50 hp Anzani 6-cyl. radial [2]
-- Calculations by Mathieu Demonty, built by Paul Poncelet
-- Orig. Demonty-Poncelet Cyrano, renamed SABCA DP in 1925
-- * O-BAFL/OO-AFL 'Cyrano', O-BAFV, 1 x 40 hp Anzani [1]
-- ** Flight lists engine as 40 hp Grégoire inverted 4-cyl
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1924/1924 - 0474.htm
-- 3v: https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1924/1924 - 0475.html
-- https://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/Hancock/4182.htm
-- http://www.fnar.be/avionsjpdecocq/Sabca_DPpwd.pdf

SABCA Junior - 1930 single-seat 'planeur-poutre'*
- Junior: Henri Jullien design, A & B ticket trainer
- Junior: Inspired by German Zögling, x 4
-- * 'Frame glider', horiz. tail diff. from Zögling
-- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php?code=2040

Simonet SHBP - 1925 parasol light a/c, 1 x 40 hp Anzani radial
- SHBP: O-BAFQ, June 1925; OO-AKF 1930 (c/n 1); O-BAJO (former O-BAFQ)
-- aka SABCA Simonet SHBP, aka 'Aviette Sabca'
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1925/1925 - 0522.html

__________________________________________

[1] The DP's Grégoire was of 1913 vintage. I mention the date because Moteurs d'Aviation Grégoire-Gyp was gone by 1924 (with its Poissy plant having been sold in 1923). Some sources list the Grégoire's output as 43 hp.

[2] Charles Mali lists O-BAFL with a 50 cv Anzani, O-BAFV with a 70 cv Anzani.

 

[hesham]

Thank you Chama52,

but what is you source which ensured that,those designation numbers
were not used or existed ?.

The Brussels Air Museum, Guy Roberty's notes and an archive collection by Wladimir Wulfson LACAB. It was I who discovered the S13, S14, S42 and S51. The S60 is the latest project. SABCA never studied planes again after the war, it only made assemblies and manufacturing under licenses, except in space. Are you talking about an S70? Where does the information come from?

Hi Chama52,

I discovered S70 from the Net,now I can't find it again,and I have Brussels
magazine,many issues,but there was many aircraft after WWII,such as S60,a
also it involved in many airplanes competition,for NATO;

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/hawker-siddeley-p-1154.5875/page-5#post-472696

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/nato-basic-military-requirements-nbmr.758/#post-118808

 

[chama52]

Hello,
The 1st Renard Epervier is built by S&V. Following the crash, SABCA urgently built the 2nd. There are small differences between the two. I noticed a lot of errors in newspaper articles. Here are the differences between the two. The main one is the design of the rear stabilizer.

Thank you Chama52,

but what is you source which ensured that,those designation numbers
were not used or existed ?.

The Brussels Air Museum, Guy Roberty's notes and an archive collection by Wladimir Wulfson LACAB. It was I who discovered the S13, S14, S42 and S51. The S60 is the latest project. SABCA never studied planes again after the war, it only made assemblies and manufacturing under licenses, except in space. Are you talking about an S70? Where does the information come from?

Hi Chama52,

I discovered S70 from the Net,now I can't find it again,and I have Brussels
magazine,many issues,but there was many aircraft after WWII,such as S60,a
also it involved in many airplanes competition,for NATO;

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/hawker-siddeley-p-1154.5875/page-5#post-472696

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/nato-basic-military-requirements-nbmr.758/#post-118808

Hello Hesham,
I know SABCA very well. I worked at SABCA Charleroi for 35 years and I have a lot of documents. SABCA took part in many programs, but did not study any more planes after the war, except projects S.50 and S.60 of which we have not even started the calculations. I have all the BAMM numbers. if you are looking for something, i can help you. For info I speak French and I go through google traduct for the translation.

 

[hesham]

Many thanks Chama,

and yes I have some of them but not all,can you send a drawings to a SABCA
Projects and thanks.

 

[chama52]

Many thanks Chama,

and yes I have some of them but not all,can you send a drawings to a SABCA
Projects and thanks.

which project

 

[hesham]

Anyone you have it about SABCA.

 

[lol90oo]

Hello,
The 1st Renard Epervier is built by S&V. Following the crash, SABCA urgently built the 2nd. There are small differences between the two. I noticed a lot of errors in newspaper articles. Here are the differences between the two. The main one is the design of the rear stabilizer.

Thank you Chama52,

but what is you source which ensured that,those designation numbers
were not used or existed ?.

The Brussels Air Museum, Guy Roberty's notes and an archive collection by Wladimir Wulfson LACAB. It was I who discovered the S13, S14, S42 and S51. The S60 is the latest project. SABCA never studied planes again after the war, it only made assemblies and manufacturing under licenses, except in space. Are you talking about an S70? Where does the information come from?

Hi Chama52,

I discovered S70 from the Net,now I can't find it again,and I have Brussels
magazine,many issues,but there was many aircraft after WWII,such as S60,a
also it involved in many airplanes competition,for NATO;

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/hawker-siddeley-p-1154.5875/page-5#post-472696

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/nato-basic-military-requirements-nbmr.758/#post-118808

Hello Hesham,
I know SABCA very well. I worked at SABCA Charleroi for 35 years and I have a lot of documents. SABCA took part in many programs, but did not study any more planes after the war, except projects S.50 and S.60 of which we have not even started the calculations. I have all the BAMM numbers. if you are looking for something, i can help you. For info I speak French and I go through google traduct for the translation.

hi how are you great to meet you ,iam also searching belgian postwar projects and i found one called sabca s-5x wich was a project proposed to the NBMR-2 and they also participated others NBMR projects but i c ant find more i also found that they were making hawker hunters and f104s under license. iam gonna do everything to find more cuz sabca s-5x was actually a project of a heavy awacs plane and they even have more

 

[lol90oo]

hi how are you great to meet you ,iam also searching belgian postwar projects and i found one called sabca s-5x wich was a project proposed to the NBMR-2 and they also participated others NBMR projects but i c ant find more i also found that they were making hawker hunters and f104s under license. iam gonna do everything to find more cuz sabca s-5x was actually a project of a heavy awacs plane and they even have more

 

[chama52]

hi how are you great to meet you ,iam also searching belgian postwar projects and i found one called sabca s-5x wich was a project proposed to the NBMR-2 and they also participated others NBMR projects but i c ant find more i also found that they were making hawker hunters and f104s under license. iam gonna do everything to find more cuz sabca s-5x was actually a project of a heavy awacs plane and they even have more

I have no new information on SABCA projects after the war, but here is the Renard R.45 project, which has become SR.45.

 

[hesham]

hi how are you great to meet you ,iam also searching belgian postwar projects and i found one called sabca s-5x wich was a project proposed to the NBMR-2 and they also participated others NBMR projects but i c ant find more i also found that they were making hawker hunters and f104s under license. iam gonna do everything to find more cuz sabca s-5x was actually a project of a heavy awacs plane and they even have more

Welcome aboard Lol90oo,

and it's great news,and I hope to can get them.

 

[hesham]

From Air Pictorial 1951.

 

[dan_inbox]

Sabca S-60 project:

 

[Retrofit]

SABCA S-60 3V drawing
(Source: "Les avions S.A.B.C.A. et associés, Prototypes et projets", Charles Mali, Mémoire de l'aviation belge, Fond National Alfred Renard 2003)